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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

How miserable do you have to be to break up a family?

26 replies

lilac21 · 05/01/2009 22:25

I've been married for 12 years, 2nd time for both of us and we have two daughters. Things have been difficult since the youngest was born, she's 9 now, but they have deteriorated so much this past year. He's never been an affectionate man and it reached the point where he didn't touch me at all unless he wanted sex. I don't want to do it but used to go along with it to keep the peace, now we don't do that either as he finally realised how meaningless it was and how used I felt. We seem to have so little in common and I don't get anything out of this relationship, don't enjoy his company and it's getting increasingly difficult to get into bed beside him every night. He's sometimes unpleasant but never in the least threatening or abusive, is mostly a good dad although he swears at the girls and loses his temper with them sometimes. I'm unhappy but I'm not desperate - do I just keep putting up with this until I can't stand it any more? We have talked about things, he says how can I change and doesn't accept that it's too late now. He wants to live together for the rest of our lives, I'd rather be unhappy alone than unhappy with him. He doesn't want to be a lonely old man, but you can be just as lonely living with someone who doesn't want you, surely?

OP posts:
lou33 · 05/01/2009 22:29

for me it was when i felt that anything had to be better than the life i was living

brazenhussy · 05/01/2009 22:31

Time to move on I think.

Would you like things to improve between you or are you passed that now? It's never too late to work on a relationship but you have to really want to.

brazenhussy · 05/01/2009 22:32

...And if he is unaffectionate and sometimes unpleasent, he deserves to be a lonely old man. It's not your problem.

PintandChips · 05/01/2009 22:35

Lilac, I really feel for you. It's a terrible situation to be in. When it doesn't seem bad enough to justify making your kids unhappy, so you stay where you are... although you are somehow wasting your life...
i don't have the answer, but i think it is worth bearing in mind what kind of a model of relationship you are giving to your girls - if you feel comfortable with what they are growing up with as 'normal', and you feel you can deal with the situation between you and your husband until they are older, then perhaps you will want to sacrifice your personal happiness, stay, and get on with it. On the other hand, if in honesty you can see that you are not giving them a great example of what a loving relationship can be, then perhas they'd be better off learning that it is possible to move on, and to do it without bitterness, and find happiness on your own.

I'm sorry I can't be more helpful, it's such a tricky one because of the children.

counselling might help? it could help you feel more confident about whichever decision you choose to take, and could even make things better between you!

newgirl · 05/01/2009 22:36

have you tired everything? relate? lots of nights out? shared interests? is it worth trying to find the spark that brought you together in the first place?

brazenhussy · 05/01/2009 22:43

Break ups don't always make the children unhappy. My kids have never been happier since DH and I separated in Oct.

The house is happier, I am so much more confident and fun for them and they now have a daddy who doesn't spend every waking hour on the PC because he has to make time for them when they visit.

Do not use the DC as an excuse - they will be happy if their parents are happy.

lilac21 · 05/01/2009 22:48

We've talked about Relate, but I'm way past wanting to be married to him. We are trying to go out more together, usually to the theatre or cinema (less strain than sitting across the dinner table in a restaurant trying to think of something to talk about). But I know I'm not spending time with him because I want to, I'm just keeping the peace again. He said 'I'm 50 and I don't want to think that my sex life is over' but I'm 40 and he assumed I didn't mind if mine was. There wasn't a spark that brought us together, we met through a personal ad and were together for two years before we married - it seemed like a good idea at the time. He never said I love you and says I have changed a lot since I retrained and changed my job 7 years ago - not for the better, I guess. I feel like me and the girls are the family and he's on the outside so often. When he goes away on business I feel relieved. I haven't ruled out counselling but he went to Relate the first time and doesn't seem convinced it would help. I'm sure it won't, unless both of us want the marriage to work.

OP posts:
brazenhussy · 05/01/2009 22:55

lilac - that was when i knew my marriage was over. I dreaded going out alone with him; we had nothing to talk about. If we went to play bingo (we used to love this) he would bring a paper to read in the intervals leaving me to sit silently staring into space . When we went for a meal he would wolf down his food as quickly as he could because he wanted to get home to watch the telly and when PIL offered to have our DC so we could go on an adventure holiday together, he spent the entire two weeks sleeping and watching DVD's. I realised on that holiday that I could never face another holiday with him bored to tears.

I just wish I had had the guts to leave him years ago.

Don't live to regret xx

PintandChips · 05/01/2009 22:58

brazenhussy, how old are your dc's? my ds is just over 2 and loves his daddy so much, and he is a very good father, i couldn't bear to split them up and make them live apart. If it weren't for ds we would have split up many moons ago - in fact we had split up, then i got pregnant by accident when we met up after a couple of months, so it's always been difficult. But somehow we manage to keep a happy home for him, he rarely sees us argue and we have a lot of family hugs and cuddles together - I worry so much about the impact on him if i follow my heart and leave...

brazenhussy · 06/01/2009 17:50

Hi PintandChips

My DC are 14, 11, 7 and 5 but only the younger two are close to their Dad. I felt exactly the same about 'splitting up' the younger two from their dad but they haven't minded at all.

When my husband lived at home he spent every waking moment on the PC and took virtually no notice of them whatsoever.They however doted on him.
Now he only sees them 3 times a week, he makes the biggest effort ever with them, taking them on bike rides, swimming etc.

I explained to the children that both of us loved them very much but mummy didn't love daddy anymore so I wanted to let daddy go and find someone who did love him. They were understanding and accepting of this.

Although your ds is too young to have that conversation with, I doubt he will be as affective as you think. He will look forward to your DH visits but accept that he now lives elsewhere.

Fizzfiend · 06/01/2009 18:04

It's very tough when there is nothing that bad about your marriage. I am also in the same position. Have had a passion-free marriage for years. DH just not into sex much, so maybe once or twice a year. I hate this and have told him so many times but he never changes as he always says he will. I can't bear meals out as we have nothing to say to each other. BUT we get on fine, never argue, dd is such a happy little thing in her family unit.

I got a bit drunk on NY Eve and told him I didn't want to stay married anymore as our marriage was falling to pieces. He insisted it was worth saving, that he still loved me. Then went to sleep...that said it all. Then in the morning we had the most mechanical sex ever...I wanted to cry. Then he said later "that was good" WTF?????

Sorry, lilac, I don't have any great answers. We have also been married 12 years and I don't want this for the rest of my life. I suspect my resentment, etc will eventually boil over and things will come to a head. I hope so anyway. I almost hope he will have an affair and leave me so I don't have to do it!

CapricaSix · 06/01/2009 18:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

brazenhussy · 06/01/2009 18:16

Fizzfiend - I used to pray that my DH would meet someone else. Everytime he recruited new staff at work I would hope that there would be someone who took his fancy. i couldn't see any other way out.

When I told friends this they didn't believe me saying that I would be gutted if he did.

Now that we are seperated they know I was telling the truth because of how happy and relaxed I am.

OptimistS · 06/01/2009 18:33

First of all, my sympathies to everyone involved in a situation like this. It's horrible to be desperately unhappy but without a "good enough" reason to leave, such as abuse or an affair. Guilt is a very powerful emotion and one of the hardest to deal with. It leaves its aftermath on the partner who instigates the breakup so that they are often just as miserable after the divorce as they were before. That's why a marriage should never be broken up lightly. The guilt will pass, but it passes quicker when dissolving the marriage is really the right thing to do.

I think it's important to distinguish between a marriage where the spark has gone and everthing has become dull and boring, and a marriage where one (or both) partners has lost all respect for the other as a result of problems.

Everyone who has been married has, at some point, asked themselves the question "Is this it?" with a sense of despair. It's not helped by the media bombarding us with images of insanely happy couples with oodles of passion. It's not realistic to expect a marriage to be like this all the time though. Think how we'd all hate it if our partners expected us to be cheerful, glamorous and sexy at all times. Neither can we expect that of them. When a marriage reaches this stage, it can still be saved by really good communication and an effort to keep the spark alive by spending quality time together without the kids. It's not easy, but it's possible.

Sometimes, though, it's not enough. My first marriage ended because I lost all respect for my husband (my second ended because of abuse, but that's a different story). Intellectually, we had a great relationship - we were never stuck for anything to talk about. Sexually the marriage was quite boring, but as great sex wasn't the main bond in our relationship it didn't really matter. We were friends first, lovers second. What really did it for us was his lack of ability to face problems. He was an ostrich, and after years of bailing him out, I just had enough. To the outside world, it would have seemed that Relate or something would have fixed our marriage. We didn't argue, nor did things get bitter when we broke up. I just lost respect for him, and when respect goes, love follows quickly. We didn't have children, so the decision to leave was very obvious to me. I can imagine how guilty I might have felt if I had children at that point. I don't think it would have changed my decision though. I know myself well enough to know that if I had stayed the lack of respect I felt would have eventually spilled into a rather nasty form of resentment, where I would have belittled him and emasculated him to the point where I would have looked in the mirror and despised myself. I also felt that he deserved to have the chance to meet someone else who would truly love him, not someone who just put up with him.

Sometimes, a partner can become the focus of everything that is wrong in our lives. Instead of soul searching and finding the real root of the problem, we project our problems on a person and embody them in that person. Leaving a marriage in these circumstances may provide temporary relief but the same is likely to happen in the next relationship until the root causes are discovered and dealt with. Counselling, alone or together, can really help with this.

Marriages should never be ended lightly. But that said, it is IMO a good thing that we live in times where we no longer have to endure years of unhappiness, which is soul destroying for both partners. Deciding to end a marriage isn't based on a points system - if you score over 30 it's ok to leave - but an honest evaluation of your own feelings.

A lot of posters have raised some good points. Ultimately, you have to ask yourself if you are capable of being the best person you can be within your marriage, as a mother, as a partner, as a friend, as a employee (if you are one), and, most importantly, as an individual. Some people can be happy regardless of whether their marriage is the most fulfilling or not. If there is no acrimony in their marriage, and they have found fulfilment in other areas of their lives, then they settle for what they have. If that doesn't sound like you, however, then it is time to leave. Life is too short to be miserable for most of it. There's no right or wrong choice per se, just a right or wrong choice for you, and making the right one will depend on how well you know yourself.

Good luck. I hope you find a solution that works for you.

lilac21 · 06/01/2009 22:30

Thanks for your feedback, especially Optimist - you obviously spent a lot of time constructing your response. My first marriage was at 19 and he was physically aggressive towards me, although we parted on good terms after five years. I know I have changed so much since then. His first marriage ended because she wouldn't have children, so I don't feel that we brought too much baggage from our first marriages into this one. I'm hesitant about counselling because the truth hurts - I've been more honest with him about my feelings recently than in the past few years, but it's not been possible to say 'I don't love you, I don't want to live with you, nothing you can do will change that' even though it's how I now feel.

I'm taking the girls away to the US for a week in July to meet my penpal of 10 years and her family. I've decided to carry on as we are until then, get this school year out of the way and then spend some time thinking about what to do.

brazenhussy, I see your point exactly about dad spending quality time with the children - he's been at home the last two days with them while I've been back at work. He has worked from home and more or less ignored them apart from cycling to the dentist and back. Apparently he then didn't cycle round the park with them because he was on a conference call! He does work very hard, including in the evenings with phone calls at all sorts of hours, but I pointed out earlier this evening that he could have taken a day off and taken the girls out for the day, he looked taken aback, it hadn't crossed his mind at all. At least if he didn't live with them he would have to pay them some attention when he saw them. And I have to compete with newspapers and the mobile when we are out together - he's always checking his phone or using the internet on it, even in restaurants. We went out for my mum's birthday on Sat night and she got so cross with him for doing that, it is so rude.

OP posts:
fourkids · 06/01/2009 23:13

'I'm way past wanting to be married to him'
are your words, do you think, the answer to your question?

or

is the reason 'it's not been possible to say 'I don't love you, I don't want to live with you, nothing you can do will change that' that if you say it a decision will have to be made, by one of you? if that is the case, then presumably you are not ready to make those decisions yet. when you are ready to decide one way or another it will be easier...until then, i think, if no-one is in any danger, then if you are not sure what to do, do nothing.

it sounds a bit like you know that this marriage is not want you want, but you need something to happen to make it the right time to end it. which it probably will...either a concrete event, or just a shift in your tolerance. i think sometimes just having to be intimate with someone you don't much like is the hardest part and one day that might just get too much for you, or you, or he, my meet someone who offers happiness, or maybe one day you will just decide you have stayed too long and your life is ticking by...

i know this isn't particularly helpful...really i just wanted to add to the voices who are saying they've been there, and to the voices that are saying that once they made the decision there was no looking back

missingtheaction · 06/01/2009 23:25

Lilac, when I was in your situation my sister said to me 'don't rush forwards; wait for the moment to come to you. it will come'. She was very right. After a while there was an imperceptable tipping of the balance, and the moment just arrived, and the words came out of my mouth, and it was done. It may be that this is what will happen to you too.

I suppose the key thing is not to just stagnate - keep moving forwards and keep on with your life; don't become a long-term moaning minnie.

Fizzfiend · 07/01/2009 20:06

Great advice here. I liked yours too Missingtheaction (are you?) I can't bear to say it's all over and disrupt a very easy, comfortableish life. But one where he irritates me always to the point of me not being able to look at him. He started it (she says childishly) by rejecting me physically. Now I just can't be bothered...it's gone too far. I do hope you are right and the moment will come. My poor dd will be so devastated. UGH!

lilac21 · 07/01/2009 20:10

Missingtheaction, I haven't discussed this with my sister or my parents, or even been completely honest with my friends - I have only told one that we are having problems and the others know nothing. I know I should, but it's something else I'm not sure I'm ready for. Your sister has wise words though, I think that's exactly what will happen to me too.

Fizzfiend, it sounds like you and I are in exactly the same position - one day we will both be ready to say 'it's over'!

OP posts:
nula · 07/01/2009 20:43

could not let this pass without commenting on what brilliant advice is on theis thread.
Optimists yours is outstanding.
I am going to print it for future ref.

sweetiemummy · 11/01/2009 15:19

I have always trusted my hubbie (1st man I ever have), however on a few occassions lately I have come downstairs late at night(from being in bed), to find that my husband shut his laptop very quickly & then pretended he wasnt even on it,instead pretending to watch the tv. Didnt really think much of it 1st couple o times as trust him, but the last time he looked so guilty I questioned him, and his reaction & refusal to tell me what he was doing left me upset & questioning what he could be doing. As he blaitently refused to tell me, I put 2 & 2 together come up with 100& thought he must be cheating or in chat rooms, to cut a long story short he continued to refuse to tell me causing friction instead telling me I'm paranoid, mad, crazy & need to go & see someone! After spending New Year Eve away from home with the kids I asked him when ringing & he told me he was looking at porn, which to be honest, I felt relieved about, I just have a real problem with the fact that he couldnt tell me & how he spoke to me, I have tried to talk to him about it but he just tells me it's not any of my business if he looks at porn,& I should trust him, which like I say I always have done it was his reaction when I questioned him, shouting at me, telling me I'm an paranoid and an idiot and to mind my own business which made me suspicious of him. We have had problems in the past mainly that I feel we live like strangers in the same house & speaking to one another in the manor which he spoke to me on this particular night, however after nearly splitting almost a year ago I thought we'd been getting on loads better & hadnt been speaking down to each other, but since this we are just living as house mates as I feel he crossed that line speaking down to me again.We never argue infront of the kids and we're not arguing but again not really saying 2 words to oneanother. I really feel I've had enough I dont feel we're of any support to one another, and feel that we are only together for the kids. I havent slept for over a week, as I just dont know what to do for the best, my kids are my priority, and I just want them to be happy, I am also worried about where we would end up living as at the moment we have mortgage but I wouldnt be able to afford mortgage on my wage.Dont know what to do.

aseriouslyblondemoment · 11/01/2009 16:08

sweetiemummy
don't let the thought of the mortgage worry you
i had all those fears too
you will need to work out all the financial aspects thou and he will have to contribute
i think alot of what some of the others have said is very true esp lou33
be strong
you will get thru thou its a long journey
please look at thread on lone parents about the positives..
xx

mrsblanc · 31/03/2009 00:28

lilac I followed the link from the other thread.
How are you now?

lilac21 · 31/03/2009 22:40

Hello Mrsblanc, thanks for asking - I'm still here!

it's more over than it ever was, and we now sleep separately. He knows that we will live separately at some point, although he still wants us to live together (pref as husband and wife in the fullest sense, unbelievably) for life. My girls still don't know anything, although I think the youngest has noticed that we sleep separately. He still talks about forgiveness and redemption and marriage as an institution...institution my a**e, this is no kind of life.

Present cunning plan is stay here, save oodles of money (I'm fortunate to have a well-paid job and reasonable outgoings) and put down a deposit on a shared ownership flat when nearby development launches in June. Hopefully I can afford a 3 bed flat with balcony so the girls have a room each and the rabbits can come too! He will be livid and I know it will be tough on the girls, but I have to do it.

Every time I come home and see his car outside, or the back of his head through the window in the front room, I want to keep on walking and come back when he's not here. I listen constantly for the sound of him moving around in the next room or on the stairs as I steel myself for the next conversation. My eldest is home from school this week so he has been at home more, he's usually out 7am - 7pm so this week I'm finding it hard having him around. I go out to work without breakfast or a drink because I just want to get out. He was supposed to be out this evening and Thursday, but that has been cancelled. I was tempted to go out myself and get away from him but I don't want to miss out on time with the girls in order to avoid him, although with our alternate parenting system that's inevitable.

I can't live like this. missingtheaction and fourkids said that the right moment will arrive, and it has...every week there are events and discussions that make me more certain I have made the right decision.

OP posts:
iloveshoesandbags · 31/03/2009 22:56

Hi just wanted to say good luck. I left my H last October after 16 years of marriage. I have 2DS, 9 and 2 and found myself a really nice place with lots of space in the country and it's the best decision I have ever made.

I fell out of love many years ago but stayed because I thought that was what marriage was about. I did the lion's share of everything and I also hold down a well-ish paid job too. He expected me to run everything and do all his accounts too. He hadn't been affectionate for years and was so negative. He also had a very quick temper, although never actually hit me or the girls.

I want him to be happy for his sake and that won't be with me. He is also now the father he never was, making time for them and actually doing things with them. He never did that before, he always put himself and his hobbies first.

Although it hit him really hard and he would love to make another go of it, I've been totally straight with him and my eldest to explain that won't be happening.

I am doing my best to keep this amicable for the sake of the girls and so far so good. I take them around 2 nights a week for an hour or so and they also stay 2 nights a week too. I started my divorce a couple of weeks ago and we are going to agree that between us too.

Making the decision was the hardest thing I have ever had to do and make sure you expect grief even though you say you want it to be over. I went to relate the week I left for his sake, so that I could help him understand and come to terms with it. The counsellor was really good and explained that even when you want to separate you go through the grieving process. I am a positive can-do person but still went through this. My friends giggled at me when I was sitting in my living room crying and saying that this wasn't part of the plan!!

I look back now and realise we never really had a proper marriage and hope that my eldest can, at some point, understand that a marriage is more than an empty relationship which is in effect what we had.

I've never looked back and regretted this and feel like I am now looking forward to the rest of my life.

Good luck with yours, I hope everything works out for you.