Come and talk to me about NPD etc.

[NotPlayingAnyMore]

Name changer for this and be warned it's a long one!

There's been a few threads on MN about NPD lately but it's only after visiting my sister with my young DS recently that I started to think she may have it or something like it.

During the weekend, DS did something which wasn't his fault and luckily didn't cause any permanent damage but she raised her voice so that he knew she was angry with me, him or both of us, even after I'd asked her not to for his sake.
Her reaction was so out of proportion and left us both feeling so upset, myself to the point at which I felt like leaving, less than 12 hours after I'd arrived.
I stayed for the sake of my DS who already knew the amount of nights were were meant to be staying for and I didn't want him to associate us leaving with his accident, but I felt trapped and was counting down the hours until we could leave, coping in the following 30 odd hours only by smiling, nodding and saying "yes".

This behaviour hasn't come out of the blue but I think this is the final straw in our sibling relationship.

She's always lectured me on subjects which she speaks as if she's an authority upon even though she doesn't know some of the most key facts about them so it's obvious she's not.
Maybe she feels the need to do this because she mostly jumps to conclusions about what I think or what I'm about to say and interrupts, therefore never getting the full story.
If we agree, fine, but if we don't, she'll insists it's because I'm wrong.
Not only does she contradict herself, but she tries telling me I'm mistaken about things I know she or I have definitely said to each other, whether in the very far or very recent past.

She's always the first person to lecture on the rudeness of others, yet is oblivious to her own.
If someone inconveniences her they'll know about it straight away, but if anyone lets her know she's upset them, they'll be lucky to get an acknowledgement, let alone an apology.
Similarly, she will criticize me to our relatives and vice versa, as if we do not talk to each other, which she full well knows we do and I think this may be part of the manipulation.

She also seems to treat the younger members of our family, including myself during that age as I am almost 2 decades younger than her, as "mini me"s if she can and cannot accept it when they inevitably become different from her.
Consistently, she puts her needs before those of the children of our family, including distracting attention they are entitled to from their parents to herself, unless when it's convenient for her to do so.
Having never had children, being highly unlikely to do so in future and certainly without any kind of childcare experience whatsoever, this would be understandable to an slight extent, but her approach is nothing less than selfish.
She seems to hold a very idealised view of how parenting and thus childhood should be, just as she does with an extreme sense of what etiquette should be.

Although I didn't realise her behaviour was out of the ordinary as a child, now I do, it has been near or completely impossible to have a pleasant time in her company because there's always some drama to be had. with her at the centre of attention.
I do think she lacks empathy but is aware enough to spot and pounce upon a vunerability in me and others.

Otherwise, she has proved to be an incredibly generous gift giver throughout the past, but as ungrateful as it may sound, I can't help feeling that this is not only an easy way of showing "love", but it's a way of keeping people feeling obliged to her.
The other thing which unnerves me is that she interacts with people as if she's acting, reacting as she thinks "one" should rather than with a genuine, spontaneous display of emotion.

Even now I am feeling the effects.
I know this will be an upsetting phrase to some for me to use but I remember leaving feeling not the relief I was hoping for, just "mentally raped".
My DP has been working very hard recently and really needed my support shortly after the visit but I couldn't give it to him because I felt as if I literally had nothing more to give, which is not like me at all. In that sense the term "energy vampire" rings very true. I'd consider myself a fairly coherent person but haven't been for almost the past week and don't feel as if I'm coming across very well in this post either.

I'm fed up of the "maiden aunt", "earth mother" routine and I'm fed up of her constantly insulting not only my own intelligence but that of my DS, my rest of my family and my friends.

It's true that she's very well-read, apparently also on psychology, though it's not her field, but has either probably never considered the idea of a personality disorder to apply to her, or simply would never entertain the idea, as I expect most with them also wouldn't.
This is why I know that, whether she actually has a personality order or whether it's just a coincidence that she has particularly narcissistic traits, it's unlikely she'll seek help, or be able to change even if she accepts it.

Although writing her a polite letter to explain exactly why I don't want her in our lives anymore, it will only fuel her fire.
I have come to realise that I don't have to justify myself to her on this or anything else she finds fault with. Therefore, I'm planning to remain civil and have ordered her Christmas present to be sent directly to her but by the new year, we will have faded from her life.

It makes me sad to do this but I know playing along will not protect myself and I'm unwilling to give her a chance to repeat history with my DS as well.

Not so much asking for advice, as I know what I've got to do, but any thoughts and shared experiences are of course welcome.

Thanks for reading

It's too long isn't it?

Ok, I'm sorry you feel this way, it sounds horrible for you

Are we talking about Narccisistic Personality Disorder here? I'm fairly sure my SIL suffers from this.

I got the hell out of her life, so can't be more helpful really.

Sorry

She sounds like my SIL's twin! You'll see me on the NPD threads a lot because I've suffered at the hands of my N in-laws for years. Will your DH let you blank her out of the family, or will he insist you remain in contact?

I can understand why you want to cease contact because these people suck all of your life out of you then try to take over and dominate. MY SIL also gives generous gifts to make us feel obliged to her and then expects to be in control over everything. I am also going to block her out as I know (huge big gut instinct based on past behaviour)that she will try to eventually come between me and my DC by manipulating us.

Cutting her out sounds like the only option, not to be vindictive but, to save yourself years of grief.

OMG is this really a condition as if so my sil suffers from it - she's so bizzare and alot of what you said about your sister sounds like my sil to the point where she refers to me as the English mother and when talking to others puts on this unusually posh voice (in her language) but you see stuff bubbling under the surface and on many ocassions she has just started screaming reglardless of who is around. She's 35 years old.

Is it really a personalilty disorder?

Also I understand where you feel of traumatised as I'm told by her all my wrongs, told how I feel, how I'm meant to feel and if I DARE say I feel something different she has pure hate in her face and I really get it from her it's just pure toxic rubbish. She's always telling me what a crap mum I am but she's never really engaged with my ds - just tells us what he's thinking and what he's feeling all the while texting her friends on her mobile.

I'm lucky she's my sil and lives overseas. But if you feel so low about seeing your sister then quite honestly don't - you just put the welfare of your ds and his carer (that's you) first.

Possibly the rest of the family feel the same way as you but just don't say anything?

Hello Notplayinganymore

Your sister does sound as though she could be an N. She sounds a bit like my mother actually, who is one.

Writing these people letters is fruitless. They do not have the capacity to understand what you are trying to say to them, and sometimes it can be downright dangerous to let on that you have finally seen the light.

I recognise the description of being mentally raped , after certain encounters in my life with these people I have felt exactly like this.

Have you looked at any websites dealing with this disorder?

Unfortunately, cutting all contact is often the only way to save your sanity.

Chequers - think NPD is what I mean, yeah. How's life been since? I eventually had to cut her out a few years ago, after most of my relatives already had as her impact on our families almost ripped the rest of us apart (though she always claimed she was the one to cut the others out). Following a local disaster though, we all called to see if she alright and ending up patching things up, which were fine at first, but she'll never change.

Bingle - sadly there's no degree of seperation, she's my very own sister! DP and I have been together over a year but they've never met as she lives 100 miles away. I used to think I'd like them to but now I'm quite relieved they haven't!

Trying - as far as I understand it, we all have narcissistic and altruistic traits, but it's when the narcissism dominates that it becomes a problem (someone correct me if I'm wrong as I'm still new to all of this!)
What you said about being told "all my wrongs" rings such a bell: while never said outright, most of her contribution to our conversation was about how bad my past life has been, how bad it is now and how bad it'll be if I don't get it nipped in the bud. For a whole weekend. Hence the "Yes Ma'am. No Ma'am. 3 bags full ma'am" from me. Toxic's certainly the word and as I've heard about the books written about toxic parents, I'm wodering how useful it may be to read them from a sibling's point of view rather than a daughter's. The rest of our family know her game but don't say anything to anyone else but each other, because we do want to get on with her. That's until it gets too much, someone confronts her even politely and then - of course - they're in the wrong and we're back to square 1.

Gettingagrip - I started reading Sam Vaknin's site but there's so much there, it's a lot to take in. Found Joanna M. Ashmun's site to be a lot more concise and helpful though. Have started to delve into a couple of blogs which I can't remember whether I saw links to on here or just Googled but they're "Narcissists Suck" and "What Makes Narcisssists Tick?" both on Blogger I think.

Thanks to everyone who has posted so far. I'm not sure how extreme an NPD she may have. It's the descriptions of male NPDers I've seen on this site which are more recognisable to me and only do I think I've been with a few, but my own father may well be one. It seems the subtle ones can be just as dangerous though.

Re the gift giving did she get you what you really wanted or did she always disappoint you?.

NPD people do not have any empathy and my BIL I feel certainly has NPD. Many of the behaviours you describe of your sister certainly also apply to him. Also these people do not seek help and even if they did it would take years to even begin to trust the therapist and they are not easy to treat. My BIL certainly is part of a dysfunctional family unit at the very best (both my MIL and FIL are to my mind narcissistic as well. Neither have any empathy whatsoever).

The website below was written with laypeople in mind:-

www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/

I am sorry to say this and I know she is your sister but you will pay a heavy price if you continue to let her into your life. We have, particularly my H who has given his brother chance after chance(they do not speak, BIL chooses not to talk to us). I gave up on BIL years ago, it was also easier for me to detach. I would personally choose your own emotional health over your sister.

From that website I posted about below:-

Nearly everyone has some narcissistic traits. It's possible to be arrogant, selfish, conceited, or out of touch without being a narcissist. The practical test, so far as I know, is that with normal people, no matter how difficult, you can get some improvements, at least temporarily, by saying, essentially, "Please have a heart." This doesn't work with narcissists; in fact, it usually makes things worse.

Hello again

Have to work in a minute but just dropped in now. Will get back to you later .

So true about the 'subtle' ones...but there are different types. They all have the same mis-firing of neurones , but this can present in slightly different ways.

At their heart though, (not that they have one) the basis for their existence is to suck the life out of everyone around them. Some do this by causing utter chaos wherever they go. Others do this by divide and rule amongst their offspring and family.

My father, mother and sibling,and all the men I have had relationships with are Ns. They are all different in some ways...but all exactly the same is others.

Back later

xx

Hi again,
Am at work so can't stay long.
Can only emphasise that you have to cut N's out of your life if you want to stay sane. They really do take over your life even if they're not physically there.
Getting- tried to CAT you last night but no luck. Back later if not too busy with work. Boss on patrol!

Hello Bingle

Have sorted the CAT thing.

xx

Attila - it wasn't so much that I was disappointed by the gifts because they were usually so grand and more expensive (running in hundreds of pounds) than any gift I could ever afford her in return. I was always very grateful for them and often they were good guesses for someone of my age etc., but they weren't things which I needed. Many of them were based on what she thought I should want, or what she would've wanted at that time in her life.
That is one of the websites I've been looking at as well.

Gettingagrip - it's interesting because when I first heard about NPD, I could identify many of my past relationships having been with them too. I feel a bit more comfortable talking about my most recent XP as he's been out of my life for a couple of years now, who would also give the ridiculously expensive gifts and always had to have to best of everything himself. I unfortunately let him move in with me and DS which was the worst mistake of my life. Not that he asked, of course: he even stated I'd be very useful to him when he moved out and I was naive enough to agree to it , especially when he backed it up with an ultimatum of letting him move in as opposed to splitting up. He already had a god complex, really got off on the bearded look which caused people to nickname him Jesus, so as you can imagine in his mind getting a job at the local diocese bringing him closer to God He blew compliments out of proportion and joked about how great he must be, only it wasn't a joke, nor very funny. I could go on all day but this site isn't big enough!
My sister is slightly less of a fantasist but I also recognise NPD traits in both of my parents as well so I certainly think there's some truth in it having a factor in being attracted to NPDs (shudder) as well.

Am going to be spending the weekend with DP and even though I'm really ill, I know nothing can be worse than the last!
Hope you all have a good one - back soon...

"Attila - it wasn't so much that I was disappointed by the gifts because they were usually so grand and more expensive (running in hundreds of pounds) than any gift I could ever afford her in return. I was always very grateful for them and often they were good guesses for someone of my age etc., but they weren't things which I needed. Many of them were based on what she thought I should want, or what she would've wanted at that time in her life".

Thought so.

Narcissists are not only selfish and ungiving -- they seem to have to make a point of not giving what they know someone else wants.

Thus, for instance, in a "romantic" relationship, they will want you to do what they want because they want it and not because you want it -- and, in fact, if you actually want to do what they want, then that's too much like sharing and you wreck their fun and they don't want it anymore. They want to get what they want from you without giving you what you want from them. Period. If you should happen to want to give what they want to get, then they'll lose interest in you.

Thrift is not in itself a narcissistic trait; neither is a fondness for old clothes. The important element here is that the narcissist buys clothes that other people she admires and wishes to emulate have already picked out, since she has no individual tastes or preferences.] These are people who need labels or trademarks (or other signs of authority) to distinguish between the real thing and a cheap knock-off or imitation, and so will substitute something easy and cheap for something precious and dear and expect nobody else to know the difference, since they can't. These are people who can tell you how many miles but not how many smiles.

Narcissists are very disappointing as gift-givers. This is not a trivial consideration in personal relationships. I've seen narcissistic people sweetly solicit someone's preferences ("Go ahead tell me what you really want"), make a show of paying attention to the answer ("Don't you think I'm nice?"), and then deliver something other than what was asked for and feel abused and unappreciated when someone else gets gratitude for fulfilling the very request that the narcissist evoked in the first place. I've seen this happen often, where narcissists will go out of their way to stir up other people's expectations and then go out of their way to disappoint those expectations. It seems like a lot of pointless work to me.

First, narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have said when asked what you wanted for your birthday; third, they're stingy and will give as gifts stuff that's just lying around their house, such as possessions that they no longer have any use for, or in really choice instances return to you something that was yours in the first place. In fact, as a practical matter, the surest way NOT to get what you want from a narcissist is to ask for it; your chances are better if you just keep quiet, because every now and then the narcissist will hit on the right thing by random accident.

The gift thing is interesting as there are Ns who are very mean, and just never give anything. So here we have examples of evident 'differences' between different 'types' of N.

They all seem to be able to spend on whatever they feel is important to them though. So, for example, my ex-HN was mean to me, going so far as to never once paying for anything of mine or the children's in 20 years of marriage without a huge scene from me. He spent many hundreds of thousands on the latest and best piece of fuck-off items for his own use,and so that the neighbours thought we were well off.

Actually he and his family were well off, I and my children were living in poverty.

In actual fact, although my mother and sibling are Ns, I do see them. They are coming to me for Christmas dinner. They will behave themselves, as I have got to the core of them now, and by various means can keep them under control.

This has not been easy,and you have to be very strong to achieve this outcome. I never really have conversations with them as normal people would recognise a conversation, and I limit the times I see them. But crucially, I DO NOT feel guilty about this now. They do not feel guilt, or love or remorse, or anything else...so why should I?

I have accepted that this is the way they are. I still have to be very careful that I say the right things to my sibling, so that they don't have a huge tantrum over nothing, but I can do that for one day. They control themselves for one day....due to what I did last time they had a tantrum in my house.

Its not nice...but there it is.

Try this one for size and tell me your thoughts on this behaviour.

I remember sil was newly married and came over to the UK with her dh and my mil. Mil got ill and sil thought it was long term digestion problem and was screaming at her mum to stop eating. Her mum (mil isn't my favourite person) was in tears. When I suggested it could be a kidney problem sil just derided (including very inappropriate pulling of faces) me to the point I walked off. This is in my home. Mil ended up in A&E and I had to be there to interpret for her. Sil was going bonkers as she saw a little girl being called in at casualty before her mum and started kicking off. She doesn't understand Enlgish and I had to explain the little girl was HIV so although she looked OK she might not be and this was A&E and expect to wait. Mil had a kidney stone and doctors were unsure she would be able to fly back home at the end of the week. Not only did the nurses tell off sil as she kicked off in the hospital and was waking up the patients, sil announced that she and dh would fly back at the end of the week and it was up to us to look after mil and fly back with her when she was better. dh and I back then used to work over 110 hours per week between us. Sil doesn't work.

That one is easy THB!

Its all about her.

This is like me taking my mother to her very elderly brother's bedside as he lay dying. She burst into tears. To be expected of course, her brother, he is dying.

But no....she is not crying for her brother...as what are the very words that pass her lips? 'It's terrible...I can't stand it...I'LL BE LIKE THAT ONE DAY'.

So I reply..'Well we'll all be like that one day...'

She replies...'Yes but I'll be like that sooner'......

She wins the competition, as she always has to. And it's still all about her.

You can't win, ever, so there's no point even trying. Even when it's not a competition, or shouldn't be, they make it into one....and they win.

Here's a nice little quote...

The only way out is through, the only way to win is not to play.

HTH xxxxx

Yep, loving the only way to win is not to play. I just do my best to not engage. Your mum - omg!!!

Another example of sil is sitting at mils dinner table she's criticising relatives and in particular one who'd had accused her of being hysterical. She screamed and got up (and here eyes were rolling) - at least I'm not seeing a psychologist and started to make dumb-arse noises and pull faces that were, again, inappropriate. She didn't seem to care that her own dh was sitting next to her up to his eyes in antidepressants and weekly visits to a psychologist! NO empathy whatsoever.

I just don't respond - I can't - have absolutely nothing to say to things like that. How do you tackle people who are on another planet.

The OP will not be able to tackle her sister alone - I feel there's such self belief in people like that - there's very little point.

It is vitally important never to tell a N anything which you do not want the whole world to hear. They take your secrets and dreams and throw them back at you later, tipped with poison.

They use your most intimate and secret thoughts as a weapon to wound you. Any normal person would take care with your vulnerabilities.. Ns just see them as weaknesses to exploit. And of course to turn around so that even these are all about them.

Attila - the other thing I forgot to mention was that, when she visited me on my birthday some years ago, I had the almost overwhelming feeling that her presence and gift giving was far more about her than my birthday was about me. Not that I could've shown it, because that would've seemed "ungrateful", wouldn't it?

tryingherbest - my sister behaves similarly when people are seriously ill and/or die. On the face of it, it seems they have the best interests of the ill at heart, but it's actually their own. As if ill health and bereavement weren't destructive enough, her behaviour caused enough grief to rip our family apart for years.

Gettingagrip - my XP also always had to have the best, but when I chucked him out, it turned out he'd left myself and my DS in debt as he hadn't paid rent as previously agreed. It took months of reminders and upset on my part for him to do it and even when we were served notice on the house due to the arrears, he acted as if finally paying them was some massive favour or a goodwill gesture towards us
Although I admire your strength, I don't envy your Christmas and I'd love to know what your reaction to their tantrum was! but I won't pry.
I also love "The only way out is through, the only way to win is not to play" - hence my changed name

"The OP will not be able to tackle her sister alone - I feel there's such self belief in people like that - there's very little point."
Very true and thank you for the reminder.

Well, weekend with just DP was lovely and much needed, but yesterday I screened a call from my sister asking for my address so a card could be sent (I've managed to dodge visits and mail correspondence for the almost 3 years I've lived here). Within only another 12 hours I got a seemingly good humoured e-mail "scolding" me for "refusing" to give her my address. Well, she's certainly no fool, because that's exactly what I'm doing and I think she knows that too.

She knows it's well past the last posting date for Christmas anyway so I refuse to take the "blame" or to apologise as I've been doing for all of the rest of my life. Where the sound of her voice on the message used to fill me with guilt and shame, now it just fills me with a little dread.

I've always had to accept her for what she is, whether I like it or not and I'm just trying to remember that I'm not forcing her to do anything in return - the only difference between then and now is that I'm not going to force myself or my DS, or let her force us to be anything other than what we are to suit.

We're pretty submissive people as it is, so as she's attacking, we're withdrawing to a safe place. I hear NPDs don't change, but they should be subject to the natural consequences of their behaviour, so this is it.

getting a grip. I know you will have a great christmas. We are FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
x

NOtPlayinganymore, my dad is like this, and my sister referred me to the Joanna Ashmun website which helped me to define his behaviours and to start shedding the guilt. I always loathed the atmosphere at home when he was around, though he was rarely physically abusive.

Last week he phoned me and my siblings to say he is getting remarried (recently divorced my mum) and could he have 'advice' on whether to invite us all - he only has limited spaces and could we sort it out amongst us. So, basically decide who is not allowed to come - a sort of infernal musical chairs. He has told us all different stories - lies basically - including pointing out to my very safety-concious and easily alarmed older brother that there will be an open fire that might pose a danger to his baby son - wtf. Such comments can seem innocuous when you recount them; my NPD dad is subtle, but relentless - there is always a barb to be removed after contact with him. I am thinking now it might be time to cut contact.

Without sounding poorme (and I do a bit), he has robbed me of self belief - always used to praise me for very mundane things like taking a train journey whilst denigrating real achievements (A levels not good enough etc, part-time job a waste of time). When I asked him what he thought I should do for a living, he suggested I become a housekeeper and offered me money to stay at home with him and mum, to cook and do the ironing (I was 21 and just finished a degree).

Now I know that it's pointless to put my hopes in him - think you've probably realised the same with your sister.

It's very hard though because I know my dad is very needy, but every time I try to respond compassionately I take a serious emotional pounding - realising it's not worth it.

Sorry it's long, but wanted to share my experience. Good luck and happy chrimbo

btw, GettingaGrip - you are courageous to have yours over

Mitford, I really like those two phrases: 'serious emotional pounding' and having to 'remove a barb' each time there is an encounter. I understand this exactly and you describe it very well. It's like drinking bleach or something; I need to gargle my soul afterwards.

My family have ganged up on me now; now that I am out of 'the system' as I call it. They are led by my mother and sister - both of whom, perhaps unconsciously, display all the traits of NPD though my mother is the ringleader and my sister is possibly a bystander or something more.

It is pointless to look for empathy in any of them sadly. But once you have realised their game, sussed them, they lose all power over you and it is a liberation. The emotional shackles fall away and alhough the encounters still bruise and the fury and powerlessness I feel is acute and immediate, the bruises heal quickly and fury no longer lands me in the psychiatrist's chair.

My brother sent me a christmas card yesterday with no 'dear' and no 'love'. he is making an (endlessly boring and him-centred) point, as a week or two ago he told me that I am 'not a very nice person'. I have done nothing to offend him - he has just joined 'the family gang/mafia' and is following my mother's lead (she will have twisted what has hapened and made me out to be a real villain)

And my father said to me a few days ago (cue the amateur-dramatic flourish of a kerchief)... 'No wonder your husband left you' then went off crying loudly.

And yet he then sent me a one-hundred-quid cheque for xmas. I rang him to ask why, as he clearly has no respect for me and obviously thinks I am shitty enough to be abandoned along with my baby. He harumphed and said 'because we love you.' Wtf? So I asked him if, since he loved me, he was going to apologise for saying 'no wonder H left you'.

He said No!' like a tantrum-throwing little child (they are all scaredy little children underneath but dangerous because they have adult capacities to wound emotionally or physically) ..'because you made me cry'.

This is the same father who, when I got pregnant years ago by a disastrous shit 20 years older than me, drove 60 miles to my house and said 'Terminate it. You will end up in a council house on the dole because your mother and I won't help you'.

Thanks for the support and discussion.

My mother added, for good measure "Get rid of it. You won't love 'it' because 'it' will look like him".

Well I have a son now by my husband, who ran away to shag whores and is living off our savings in a foreign country. But I love our baby utterly. What my mother did back then was project her own shit onto me: SHE wouldn't have been able to love 'it'. She had had two abortions, as she confessed afterwards, and they meant nothing to her.

But I believed her crap about not being able to love a devil-baby as she saw my pregnancy (her own NPD 'me me me I will not be adored by this daughter if she has a baby to distract her' shite?) because I was in 'the NPD system' back then.

I am not doing it anymore. I have posted my brother's card back to him saying if I am so unlikeable why send me a card?

It will fall on deaf, functioning-alcoholic ears. Poor deluded git.

A Cracker...yes we are FREEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!

Mitford...yes, your dad operates divide and rule with your siblings. Thanks for saying I'm courageous. I don't feel very courageous! In fact I am beginning to get that old familiar feeling in the pit of my stomach tonight, which has ruined Christmas for me my whole life. My N-father used to throw a tantrum on Christmas Eve, shut himself in his study, and not come out for three days. My N-mother would run around like a headless chicken trying to get him to come out, eat his dinner with us, open his presents etc etc etc We would be miserable the whole time, and it was of course...all about him.

Every Christmas.

He is now dead, but I will have my N-mother and N-sibling here. So I still get the feeing. I am not quite sure what the feeling actually is...anticipation of a narc-attack! However that feels!