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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Come and talk to me about NPD etc.

53 replies

NotPlayingAnyMore · 18/12/2008 20:16

Name changer for this and be warned it's a long one!

There's been a few threads on MN about NPD lately but it's only after visiting my sister with my young DS recently that I started to think she may have it or something like it.

During the weekend, DS did something which wasn't his fault and luckily didn't cause any permanent damage but she raised her voice so that he knew she was angry with me, him or both of us, even after I'd asked her not to for his sake.
Her reaction was so out of proportion and left us both feeling so upset, myself to the point at which I felt like leaving, less than 12 hours after I'd arrived.
I stayed for the sake of my DS who already knew the amount of nights were were meant to be staying for and I didn't want him to associate us leaving with his accident, but I felt trapped and was counting down the hours until we could leave, coping in the following 30 odd hours only by smiling, nodding and saying "yes".

This behaviour hasn't come out of the blue but I think this is the final straw in our sibling relationship.

She's always lectured me on subjects which she speaks as if she's an authority upon even though she doesn't know some of the most key facts about them so it's obvious she's not.
Maybe she feels the need to do this because she mostly jumps to conclusions about what I think or what I'm about to say and interrupts, therefore never getting the full story.
If we agree, fine, but if we don't, she'll insists it's because I'm wrong.
Not only does she contradict herself, but she tries telling me I'm mistaken about things I know she or I have definitely said to each other, whether in the very far or very recent past.

She's always the first person to lecture on the rudeness of others, yet is oblivious to her own.
If someone inconveniences her they'll know about it straight away, but if anyone lets her know she's upset them, they'll be lucky to get an acknowledgement, let alone an apology.
Similarly, she will criticize me to our relatives and vice versa, as if we do not talk to each other, which she full well knows we do and I think this may be part of the manipulation.

She also seems to treat the younger members of our family, including myself during that age as I am almost 2 decades younger than her, as "mini me"s if she can and cannot accept it when they inevitably become different from her.
Consistently, she puts her needs before those of the children of our family, including distracting attention they are entitled to from their parents to herself, unless when it's convenient for her to do so.
Having never had children, being highly unlikely to do so in future and certainly without any kind of childcare experience whatsoever, this would be understandable to an slight extent, but her approach is nothing less than selfish.
She seems to hold a very idealised view of how parenting and thus childhood should be, just as she does with an extreme sense of what etiquette should be.

Although I didn't realise her behaviour was out of the ordinary as a child, now I do, it has been near or completely impossible to have a pleasant time in her company because there's always some drama to be had. with her at the centre of attention.
I do think she lacks empathy but is aware enough to spot and pounce upon a vunerability in me and others.

Otherwise, she has proved to be an incredibly generous gift giver throughout the past, but as ungrateful as it may sound, I can't help feeling that this is not only an easy way of showing "love", but it's a way of keeping people feeling obliged to her.
The other thing which unnerves me is that she interacts with people as if she's acting, reacting as she thinks "one" should rather than with a genuine, spontaneous display of emotion.

Even now I am feeling the effects.
I know this will be an upsetting phrase to some for me to use but I remember leaving feeling not the relief I was hoping for, just "mentally raped".
My DP has been working very hard recently and really needed my support shortly after the visit but I couldn't give it to him because I felt as if I literally had nothing more to give, which is not like me at all. In that sense the term "energy vampire" rings very true. I'd consider myself a fairly coherent person but haven't been for almost the past week and don't feel as if I'm coming across very well in this post either.

I'm fed up of the "maiden aunt", "earth mother" routine and I'm fed up of her constantly insulting not only my own intelligence but that of my DS, my rest of my family and my friends.

It's true that she's very well-read, apparently also on psychology, though it's not her field, but has either probably never considered the idea of a personality disorder to apply to her, or simply would never entertain the idea, as I expect most with them also wouldn't.
This is why I know that, whether she actually has a personality order or whether it's just a coincidence that she has particularly narcissistic traits, it's unlikely she'll seek help, or be able to change even if she accepts it.

Although writing her a polite letter to explain exactly why I don't want her in our lives anymore, it will only fuel her fire.
I have come to realise that I don't have to justify myself to her on this or anything else she finds fault with. Therefore, I'm planning to remain civil and have ordered her Christmas present to be sent directly to her but by the new year, we will have faded from her life.

It makes me sad to do this but I know playing along will not protect myself and I'm unwilling to give her a chance to repeat history with my DS as well.

Not so much asking for advice, as I know what I've got to do, but any thoughts and shared experiences are of course welcome.

Thanks for reading

OP posts:
mitfordsisters · 23/12/2008 21:09

We still joke about who is going to ruin CHristmas in our house, even though it was always dad! Gettingagrip, you will be fine - have a glass of bubbly on hand and sing heartily to christmas carols and clatter the pans loudly so you don't have to hear them.

Amazonian, these are sad tales you tell. I hope you have some loving friends around this Christmas - your family sound utterly incapable. Re. the christmas card - how much battle have you got in you? And what about the cheque - will you bank it? So many opportunities at this time of year for unscrupulous family members to start chucking their weight around.

Amazoniancracker · 23/12/2008 21:50

Mitford I love the way you use language. I have lots of loving friends thank god and I count gettingagrip as a friend though we haven't met. Yet..

I don't have too much battle left in me tbh but enough to stick to my own script for some while yet.

And as for the cheqeue: well, it is on my fridge and I am a-lookin-and-a-thinkin about it. Will chuck it away once I am ready.

Don't they just...chuck their weight around. All mouth and no trousers/effing idea.

We must stick together we NPD survivors. or come-through-ers. We are strong I think.

Mumfun · 23/12/2008 22:53

this has really helped me - the Joanna Ashmun site is really useful - it describes a relative to a tee - I has suspected this relative but this site has been really helpful in leaving me in no doubt! Thank you!

Gettingagrip · 23/12/2008 22:57

We are strong A Cracker....and we ARE ONTO THEM. So they have lost their power to harm us.

WE KNOW THEIR GAME!!!!

And yes, MS Mitford, pans will be rattled and crashed. We play that bingo game, me and the kids, on Christmas day. We have a list of the many phrases which are trotted out by our N-guests every year, and so every time they are said, we win prize.

eg N-sibling....on spying a present someone else has been given...'oh that would do for me'

N-mother...on opening her present..'I've already got one'...

And so on....At least now I don't have to agonise over what to buy for N-MIL, for her to give it back to me a week later saying she didn't like it!!!!

You couldn't make it up!

Amazoniancracker · 23/12/2008 23:37

My now-dead granny every sunday:

'you've got more peas than me'

God, that has made me understand something, my mother's mother was probably NPD too???

Makes sense >

I hope I have broken the cycle.

Anyone for a bike ride with me me me?

mitfordsisters · 24/12/2008 09:19

lol at 'you've got more peas than me'.

Hope you slept well Amazcracker - I thought about what your dad said and thought it was really horrid - he really doesn't know how to behave. I just wish you didn't have to put up with such rubbish.

Gettingagrip · 24/12/2008 10:10

LOLOOLOLOL!!!!!! at 'you've got more peas than me!!!!'

OK we will have a rundown on here after the event, anyone spending their day with an N, a prize for the most outrageous me, me , me comment.

I'll start as I don't even need to go through the day as I can predict the whole thing now....my sibling will arrive looking immaculate, (no family, lives alone), and say..'well I would do all this but my house is too small to fit you all in'. Translates as 'I can't be bothered, I'll just come and eat all your food instead' . Followed by criticising what I am wearing, my weight, my hair colour; followed by mooching round my house picking everything up and commenting on it, with reference to how she wishes she had one.

After the nightmare that is present opening my sibling will grab all the funny books that I have been given and kindly proceed to read out all the funny bits for the rest of the day , so that I have no need to expend my energy reading them.

And so on.....roll on boxing day!

NotPlayingAnyMore · 24/12/2008 12:39

Mitfordsisters - "always used to praise me for very mundane things like taking a train journey whilst denigrating real achievements (A levels not good enough etc, part-time job a waste of time)."
My dad always used to praise me - just to everyone else, never to my face. I now know he wasn't saying "my daughter is good" so much as "I've got a good daughter".

"When I asked him what he thought I should do for a living, he suggested I become a housekeeper and offered me money to stay at home with him and mum, to cook and do the ironing (I was 21 and just finished a degree)."

My sister has alway foisted her educational/career advice upon me, then disapproved when I've deviated it from it in any way, but your example's really something else

Amazoniancracker - am so, so pleased you've spied this thread and joined in. Have read your threads with much interest and often outright amazement. Hope you and yours are doing well

Post Christmas day rundown is an excellent idea! though this year I'm likely to have far less to report.
Sister has gone to stay with a friend and her family for Christmas, a friend from university she'd always spoken of as nothing but "stupid" (which of course she'd deny now). As I suspect her friends are also fading away or cutting the contact completely due to her behaviour, this doesn't surprise me. The cheek of burdening herself on someone she'd consider a "last resort" does, but I must remember she's getting worse with age.
She invited herself round for Christmas years ago (possibly the same year as the birthday) and I stupidly agreed. Although she invited herself quite last minute and there was only so much we could do to accommodate her, she couldn't accept how we could dare to give slightly more attention to our first Christmas with DS than to her. Never again.
This year another of my sisters has invited the rest of the family around, probably because there's no danger of N-sister commandeering everything so it's likely to be a relaxed one for the first time in many years

OP posts:
Amazoniancracker · 24/12/2008 13:59

ha ha. I am not seeing ANY of my family at all this year. I am seeing only friends.... even though, for a few days, I will be staying with my 'surrogate parents' who live 20 minutes from my actual ones.

My actual ones know I will be there as my dad has 'casually' asked what I am doing and I told him. I could hear on the phone that he was offended when I made no mention of coming to see them or my sisters and brother etc...(his voice sort of 'tightens' as though some invisible hand is gripping his balls and he said 'I see' like the wide-mouthed frog joke. But this was the same call that ended with him saying 'No wonder your husband left you'.)

When I was still in 'the system' I asked my parents (this was two xmases ago) if they would like to spend it with me and H. They tentatively agreed (I am at least 90 and my parents had never done christmas at my house - they have always gone to saintly sister's or saintly brother's. I thought it would be nice to have them in my house just once before they die etc etc) But i then got a barrage of phone calls from my saintly brother saying 'they are boring, you will hate it having them, they will be pissed off because they really, underneath, want to go to saintly sister's house. Dad farts and reads the paper and snores. It will be awful. You are being selfish' so I buckled and rang them and said I thought they should go to saintly sister's after all. They did. With relish.

Nowt as queer as family.

SleighGirl · 24/12/2008 14:14

having read all of this I actually think my Dad has a touch of NPD, yes everything is all about him him him. Fortunately I have virtually no contact with my family for my own sanity. Although it could just be that both my parents are so emotionally stunted/absent the result is NPD like traits without having NPD.

The peas what a wonderful mental image that is.

I hope you all have wonderful Christmass' and an NPD free 2009!

toomanystuffedbears · 24/12/2008 16:59

My NPD sister likes to take embarrassing pictures of people.
I was shut down in "yes, sister, thank you, sister" invisible mode to cope with her presence-which was depressive to me.

DD1 (13)is notorious for snooping for Christmas gifts before Christmas. So last year I had wrapped (only) 3 boxes completely in duct tape and then wrapped them as a joke. And dd1 would've thought it funny.

BUT, sister had to get her camera out and start snapping away. My dd1 took her gifts to her room to open (good for her). So finally, sister announced that she'd put her camera away. (She later told other sister, who wasn't there, that she was ordered to put the camera away.) Joke totally ruined. That in addition to other "control" issues-the day was ruined. Nevermind the fact I was 7 months pg-she's single/no prospects (ever).

I broke free last March after having dd2. I feel like I exist again.

She isn't here this year, so I won't have any stories to share .

Amazoniancracker · 24/12/2008 19:54

Thank god she aint in my life either...they should go trolling together

My 'baby' sister is a freak. 41. had one boyfrienbd, wears weird clothes, talks and walks like my mother; thinks she is now some kind of 'head of the family' like I used to. In fact my mother must just love it....seeing her own youngest-of-five children (she has lost two of us now to her NPD) finally achieve her (own) dreams - the dreams she never could be bothered to see through herself: ie a Degree, an MA, a PHd, no ties, no kids, no love, a constricted throat and upper body area, and a dry fanjo.

Gettingagrip · 24/12/2008 20:41

toomanystuffedbears

That photography thing is really interesting. On two levels now I think about it.

Every time we had a photo taken when we were children we had to pose as if in some epic production. We could never just relax and say cheese. There was never just the capturing of a moment. It was always controlled as if Cecil B deMille (sp) was directing it. When I have looked back at some of these photos, my mother has written on the back of them with titles...not just names and dates and places as would be expected, but whole scenarios that she invented, that we would have to act out for the photo. I used to long for them to just take the blooming photo, without all the performance surrounding it.

They were both total control freaks of the highest order.

But then when I think again, we had no photos at all in the house. They were obsessed with taking the things, of creating false images that didn't really exist, except in their controlling minds, but none were ever displayed. I have photos all over the place of my kids...school photos, sporting achievements, their friends, my friends...but they had none.

Of course they had none because why would they want to look at photos of anyone else? no-one else existed for them except themselves.

I have only just realised this.

Gettingagrip · 25/12/2008 00:14

This is really interesting

wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_a_narcissist_and_a_sociopath

toomanystuffedbears · 25/12/2008 02:43

My sister takes the embarassing photos (I guess) to show around to have a laugh at the expense of others when they can't do anything about it-after all - they are reduced to 2 dimentions. (She likes to take pictures of people's backsides for example.) I think this is a sort of power trip for her, or is it approaching emotional blackmail-'be good, or the embarassing pictures come out'? Anyway, I had come to be aware if she was ever behind me. Just another part of the checklist of coping with her presence.

Gettingagrip-absolute control of the photo, every aspect-wow, what a 'tradition' .

Thanks for the link.
I think my sister is benign mostly, but does have some malignancy moments. It is really a "superority complex".

Amazoniancracker-MATRIARCH!! yes, exactly. A few years ago,Dear other sister's partner moved in "before marriage" and the NPD one told her what an awful person she was and that I would never bring my children to see her because it would morally degrade them. I of course am in contact with my other sister, (married now or not)and my children love her. But these comments, including what I would decide about my children, were an example of "life on her planet"-and TMSB and other sister do not exist (not as children, even, let alone independent adults). Other sister commented that is was just like how mother used to shake her finger at her-just like mother treated her. And it is true and has gotten worse recently: mother would always ridicule/dismiss anything I ever did or said. The NPD one wants to keep siblings in child mode for ease of superiority.

Sorry this went on too long.
I hope the day goes well for everyone. It is hard; just try to maintain respect for yourself and that may lead to emotional detachment from the hateful ones.

Merry Chrismas! Happy Holidays!

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 25/12/2008 10:29

This is interesting!
My Grandmother was exactly like this. She used to be vile and controlling to all 3 of her kids and hated their partners on principle. She was vile to my mum and was constantly moving the goalposts of acceptable behaviour. She would make things up as if her reality was different to everyone else's and tell you what was the case even when you knew it wasn't. She once told me I should move back with my parents for a few months (can't remember why) When I said that I couldn't as I had a job and had to pay my rent she said 'well we pay your rent don't we'? Well...no! She also told my aunt that I'm a great problem to my father because I got pregnant out of wedlock, as if he was very disappointed in me. He wasn't (I was conceived out of wedlock and she was very angry with him) so it's obviously her projecting what she feels/what he 'ought' to feel onto him.
She was very 'divide and rule' with the grandkids (4 in my family plus one cousin) eg I had my fees paid for 2 years at private school - but my youngest brother asked for £200 for a school trip and got a nasty response. They were very rich and would buy pointless, extravagent presents when we were struggling financially. A Harrods hamper with foie gras and shit like that for a skint vegetarian family...could have used the £100 much more but no...she'd rather display her wealth and watch my dad struggle to pay bills...his fault for marrying a useless housewife who wouldn't stop having kids...but when she got a job she was a dreadful wife for abandoning the home...
I could go on...I won't, but this has struck a cord.....She's dead now, poor old miserable soul. My dad always knew she had some mental ill health but she would never have acknowledged it.

Gettingagrip · 25/12/2008 21:29

narcissistic mothers (and grandmothers!)

nilescranefanclub · 04/01/2009 17:23

Hello all. I stumbled accross this site when I was looking up NPD because I am positive my nother, now 87, suffers (or should I say her family) from this condition and how it has affected myself and my three sisters. My sisters live in Australia and I live quite close to my mum. I have read all the threads on this discussion board and feel as if I could have written them myself. My story is long and involves guilt (from me)how could I have been a better daughter? Hate, when her actions have taken my breath away and comedy because after reading books by the wonderful Dorothy Rowe I realised what a farce we had all been performing in all our lives. My wonderful dad died in 1988. He did not have a fantastic job and did not earn a lot of money but he was loving, supportive and kind.
My mother remarried six months after he died and went to live in New Zealand. I had a one year old child by then and was pregnant with another. But my story starts a long time before this and I will continue it later when I have a little more time...

nilescranefanclub · 04/01/2009 18:26

...well back again after some. coffee. My mother's husband died in 1992 so she decided to move to Australia to be near my sisters but she only stayed for five years because she was not happy in Australia so moved back to the UK to be near to me. (more of which later).
This Christmas was particularly difficult and I will start with it but the back story starts in the 1960's.
I have to say that my mother is remarkably fit, and (she maintains) independent. She has a cleaner and looks after herself well - physically.
My husband, myself and two sons cooked Christmas dinner at my mother's. We cooked dinner at home on boxing day and my mother came to eat. We also invited a friend to eat with us. What a mistake. She behaved as she always does when not the centre of attention, long silences, pretending to fall asleep, lecturing our friend about her attitude to the National Health Service (my mother was a hospital sister for many years) Our friend's mother had recently died in hospital and she did not like the fact that her mother had been in a mixed ward.My mother said "you shouldn't complain because your generation wanted equality" which was inappropriate and bizarre in the context. A few days later I had a call to say that she was brokenhearted because no one had rung her fom Australia on New Year's Eve, although they rang the next day. Nothing we have ever done has been good enough for her and any praise at all is filtered so that it is she that gets the praise. For example "she gets that from me" or when one of us graduated from university "Of course I should have gone to university" Never 'well done'. She has also, in the last ten years or so, been re writing history: that she has met the queen, (I have never heard that before)that she went to grammar school (she didn't but what does it matter where she went to school)and odd things like she won a phone in a competition - I know she bought it. I know this must all seem trivial but it is the tip of an extraordinary icebeg of events, lies, and manipulations that we have been part of for half a century. To the outside world my mother is "a wonderful woman" and of course she is because she becomes a different woman to the outside world - until you upset her that is.
If this is of any help to anyone I will continue this later. It feels very odd writing down things I have only ever discussed with my sisters and our families.

sickofthisrain · 04/01/2009 20:37

She sounds like my ex friend, who is the SIL of a very close friend. She is totally toxic and clearly NPD, and does many of the things you describe in your sister. She has currently got her husband in counselling as she's told him her unhappiness is all his fault and he needs to try harder (he is brainwashed and believes her)

She is jealous of everyone and believes everyone is jealous of her. She believes others are favoured over her. The list goes on.

I now totally avoid her. It's true about not telling them anything - she had the longest memory ever, and you could never tell her any detail you didn't want to have repeated. She once even told me how much my engagement ring cost (I didn't know but H must have told her H)

I feel for you. I know she's your sister but I think you need to keep your distance, for your own sanity. you can never win with these people.

sickofthisrain · 04/01/2009 20:41

oops - could you tell I'd just read the OP? Have read the rest of the thread now!

My grandmother had NPD and I'm starting to realise H has many traits - to my painful cost. Will be back to this thread later..

popcorn123 · 04/01/2009 21:25

The "narcissistic mum" link has fully opened my eyes and made me realise that my mum is narcisstic.
I had previosly believed until a couple of years ago (I am 33) that I had the perfect childhood and my parents (particuallry my mum) had been wonderful and better- but very different from other mother's - as she constanly told me.
I was shy an awkward and had no self confidence and felt insignificant and beleived that I was less imortant than virtually anyone else. My sister felt the same.

I left my abusive husband (also has NPD) and since then have had to open my eyes to what is happening around me.

My mum was very controlling - we were never ever allowed any freedom. The section about buying as clothes as cheaply as possible rings true -we were never allowed fashion items and wore the most awful frumpy clothes while she was always well dressed.
We were never told well done and if we did do something well she also took credit. e.g there you will be glad I didn't let you go out and I made you study - never you did well.

I was told that I was incapable of being happy ever, I got upset, the little smirk the gave when I got upset is described very well in the article. I was alsi told as an adolescnt that I would be a spinster as noone would put up with me.

She was the centre of attention at my wedding by (1) Wearing a white outfit that cost double what my dress cost and required as many fittings etc she had tried to get me to not spent a lot on my dress for appaently genuine reasons (2) Getting so worked up on the day that she upset my bridesmaids etc and had to be heled to her seat as she was so nervous - everyone remembers that.

The section on sympathising my abusers stand point also rings to - she plays devil's avocate when I try and descibe my ex's dreadful behaviour towards me and dc's - "that poor boy" "you can be difficult" "I think you should keep trying to made marriage work - I am not a quitter like you"

Sorry this is so long - a bit of self therapy. Am still finding her difficult to deal with -but all her intentions seem so genuine on the surface.
I am allowing her opinions to really hold me back in being stronger with ex and now I realise why she behaves I should stop asking her opinion.

She also said on many occassions as we were growing up that the main reason for having children was for people to look after you when you were old. I thought this was normal.
When it became clear that my husbad was a selfish lazy waste of space she said son-in-laws are suppossed to care for MIL's when they age I really can't see him doing it! Said with complete seriousness - while I was descibing his abusive behaviour to me.

Yes - can totally identify.

BrieVinDeAlkaSeltzer · 04/01/2009 21:40

This is a serious question......

In my line of work.....NPD stands for New Product Development.

Can someone please enlighten me, as I read these threads with horror, but can not get beyond.

New

Product

Development.

sickofthisrain · 04/01/2009 21:45

Narcissistic Personality Disorder!

sickofthisrain · 04/01/2009 21:46

but that should more appropriately be Narcissistic Personality Disorder

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