Controlling parents. Long Sorry.

[Wigglesworth]

I am at my wits end! I am 28 married and I have a 4 month old DS and my parents are trying to control my life, I am so stressed and it keeps me awake at night. They see us at least once a week but seemingly this is not enough, I am made to feel guilty they say things like "oh well I don't know when we will see you again" in a ho hum tone of voice. I feel obliged to go round there or invite them here, but when I do see them my Mum constantly interferes and asks me questions which I answer but then she disagrees with me all the time.
I think my Mum thought I wouldn't be able to cope with being a Mum and would be calling on her all the time, which I haven't and TBH would be my worst nightmare. I think she is secretley bitter about it too, my Dad remarked on what a happy baby DS is now (was a screamy nightmare at first!) and how I am doing a good job. All my Mum could say is "well it helps when you have an "easy baby"." He is not "easy" at all.
They are constantly asking me when will they see me and when I give them an answer they don't like their tone makes me feel guilty. I want to have a life and I feel like I am always having to make excuses for not seeing them. Sometimes I just can't be arsed with them.
They also just assume that when I go back to work that my Mum will be having DS, and not bothered to ask me about it. My Mum says things like "oh you won't want to leave him will you, don't worry I will bring him to see in your lunch hour!" It just seems like she can't wait to get me out of the way. He is actually booked into nursery for 3 days a week and I was going to ask her if she can look after him for 1 day a week. I am now starting to think that I don't want her to look after him at all and I think I am just doing the one day a week with her to keep her happy. Although I know this won't be enough for her cos she will want to look after him full time.
I just don't know where to start dealing with all this. I don't want to hurt or offend them and if I talk to them I know I will just break down. They don't understand how much this hurts me and I feel like I don't want to be around them cos they treat me like a child all the time. HELP!!

"If they fail...I say that says something about your failure as a parent, not them as an individual. Ie grow up to be a drug dealer...well something went wrong on the way there!"

Forgive me, but I find this sort of cod psychology smug and mean.

TheProvincialLady

My relatives will not change; they do not have the emotional capacity to do so and there is no will for them to change. I can only change how I react to them. Even you acknowledge that point. You cannot yourself change however, to change them because that approach does not work.

What I write is uncomfortable viewing no doubt but it is written with the best of intentions. If it makes people think so much the better.

TPL : Yes, but one thing I did get from the OPs original post is that this isn't new. She has been trying and her mother is simply not listening.

I often tell the story of when I was living quite far away from my parents and hadn't seen them for a while, I decided that I was not making enough effort. So I came to visit them for a long weekend (which was quite expensive for me as I had to fly and I didn't earn too much money). I arrived and had dinner with them then spent most of the next day in my company's local office as I did not have a day's leave. I had dinner again with them that night. The next day, i went shopping with both of them and we had lunch out. After which my mother and I did some more shopping. Then that evening, a friend and I went out for dinner. The following day I spent at my parents' house with my parents and my mother's best friend came round for lunch. As I was getting ready to go back to the airport that afternoon my mother's friend asked her if she had enjoyed having me home after such a long time and my mum said, "it's lovely, but we've hardly seen her".

I challenged her. But in her head, the fact that I'd gone to work and had one dinner out in three days meant that I had barely given her any love or attention.

These people simply cannot change because for whatever reason they cannot take responsibility for their own actions. Until you accept that your behaviour is unreasonable, you can't change.

It then becomes up to us to manage this.

Attilla said it better than me!

Hi Nicky, 'smug and mean'. Thanks for that. If you want to discuss the point, all good, its all up for debate but please no personal insults.

I am talking of my feelings on the matter. I do feel that how you parent is reflected in how your adult child turns out as a person. Some will be nature ie genes but much I feel comes from nurture ie how you brought them up.

These are my feelings on the matter. Whether I am right or not who knows.

I am not arguing that some people cannot and will not change. I am not saying that some people's parents are not absolutely poisonous - of course there are loads of people out there like that. My father would not change even if he could and so I haven't seen him for nearly 20 years. Believe me, I don't need any further evidence of the damage a person can do.

I just think that none of us are in a position to judge whether the OP's parents are 'toxic' by the definition of the often mentioned book, or whether they are just very flawed, controlling individuals who need the people around them to show/tell them that it needs to stop or there will be consequences. There is not enough evidence. Most of the time I think that people get good advice on difficult parents, but this thread made me uncomfortable.

Anyway, what counts is not whether you or I think the OP's parents are 'toxic' - only the OP is in a position to decide whether they have the capacity to change and whether she wants to challenge them to do so.

TPL

Re your second para surely the "definitions" you give are one and the same. What else can they be called if not "toxic" (a word that many people do seem very uncomfortable with). You can certainly tell such people their behaviour needs to stop or there will be consequences but you need to be prepared for the verbal you would get from raising such issues with them.

I think as well that people who thankfully do not come from families where controlling is an issue seem to think that talking with them will produce a "light bulb" moment and after the "talk" the behaviour changes. Short answer to that one is no.

Re "evidence" what more evidence do you need?. Even W herself has agreed with me to a certain extent. Based purely on the facts I think that W's Mum is controlling and has been for years. What do you make of her reactions towards both her son and husband?.

I am sorry that this thread makes you uncomfortable but would have to say that any such thread like this will make for both diverging opinions and difficult reading.

I would agree with your last para in that I sincerely hope that Wiggleworth challenges her Mother. But it does not end with just a verbal challenge. W will need to be strong to counter the accusations that will likely be flung back as a riposte. Many emotionally damaged people are not reasonable at all, they lack empathy. That capacity to empathise is clearly not within them.

Attila

Ally90 - I'm sorry, that was mean of me. Got a bit carried away, it's easy to forget you are talking to and about real people on forums .I've found this discussion really interesting. I apologise.
I actually agree with you in part but I have spoken to families who have a loved one who is committing crime/ drug addicted etc and a member of my family has been through something similar. There are many complex factors influencing the way children turn out, not least poverty, and it annoys me that parents are often collectively blamed for things beyond their control.
I'm sorry again. Am ashamed of myself.

I do agree to a certain extent with atila et al. I don't think they are beyond talking to though. My DH got a new job a couple of months ago and has to work away for 3 days a week til xmas. When he first went my Dad said to me "ok so me and your Mum will take it in turns each night to stay with you cos we don't want you staying on your own over night we would worry and wouldn't be able to sleep. Also your Mum will be here to help you during the day".
I put my foot down there and told them I don't want or need anyone to stay with me, I am an adult and I want to do this on my own. I told them they needed to let go of the fact that I am not a child anymore and besides they live a 10 min drive from me so if I did need them they could be there in a flash. They did back off but my Mum couldn't resist the "oh you are stubborn" remark to which I replied "not stubborn, independent".

For the record the only time I asked for help was the week DS was born they got me some bits of shopping and a couple of weeks after the birth to watch DS for an hour whilst I went to physio. I think this disturbs them, the fact that I don't need them all the time. Don't get me wrong it's a good feeling knowing they are there and would literally drop everything to help me but I am not the one who needs help.
My brother is 34 still lives with them, has never had a proper job and claims every benefit/tax credit he can, the money from which he spends on cigs and his motorbike and generally pilfers away and doesn't give them a bean. My Dad has a good job and is the only one working out of 3 adults in that house. I disapprove of the way they treat my brother, although I love him and he is a pleasent person he is very manipulative (I had him sussed a long time ago) and if he pesters them long enough gets his way. I don't interfere with their lives so they should butt out of mine too. Not that I am bitter

Aaah, you have the "but your brother *needs" us to help him" thing going down? Been there. Done that.

Your parents sound v similar to mine. My mother needs to feel needed in order to feel like a "real" person - notwithstanding that the reason I learnt to be so independent is because she consistently and regularly let me down as long as I can remember.

I tend to let her help with very specific tasks. she hates it because she really wants to be able to tell people, "Oh, Bling really couldn't do x so I stepped in "rather than, "sorry- I can't do that today as Bling has asked me to do x". But... I find it's the only way. And I'm generous with positive feedback when she does good things!

Attila, I think the difference for me is that the label of toxic (which I don't have a problem with in principle) seems to imply that the person cannot/will not change. Whereas a flawed individual who may exhibit the same behaviours can change, if they genuinely did not realise that they were behaving in a controlling way/did not realise the consequence of their behaviour. I think you can only find out which type of person they are once you confront the issue properly yourself and stop behaving in babyish ways that enable their behaviour (or whatever the problem may be).

I agree with nicky that the issues that make someone such an awful parent are very complex and I just don't find it helpful to label people that quickly.

Only got a mo...

Nicky, thanks

Sorry if I hit a sore point with you

I'm surprised you got to 28 before this drove you daft. I moved away from my parents when I was 18 but if I'd seen them every week from 18 to 28 I would be tearing my hair out although I love them. It sounds as though they need some non family hobbies. Your family shouldn't be your sole interest and source of entertainment. If my mum had wittered on about not knowing when she'd see me again when she saw me weekly I'd have told her not to be so silly and get some hobbies or go to night school or something. My parents didn't make that much fuss when I moved to New Zealand for a while. They probably were upset, but they knew I wanted to go so acted pleased for me. You are having to parent your mum and tiptoe round her feelings. I agree with whoever said work out how often you want to see them and stick to it. No-one can make you feel guilty, especially for something as silly as not seeing them more than once a week. As you'll see from another thread some folk just see their parents every few months.
It sounds as though you've left your teenage rebellion phase a bit late.
I'd rather move away than have parents or in laws emotionally blackmailing me. Giving your parents more time to themselves may encourage them to start arranging their life around something other than you and your sprog. I'm fairly blunt and I suspect if my mum had carried on like this I'd have told her I found her attitude claustrophobic and that she seemed bored and in need of some activities to occuppy her that didn't involve me.

Wigglesworth - I absolutely understand where you are coming from. I apologise for my late reply..but I have only just discovered this website, and had to write to you.

I am a 26yr old medical doctor and it is only in the last 3 months that I have realised how much my parents control my life. Recently I read a book called "Cutting Loose: An Adult's Guide to Coming to Terms with Your Parents" by Howard Halpern, which I bought from Amazon. It is like I have awoken from a dream and can see everything for the first time. My parents particularly like to stonewall, or give me the silent treatment when I don't do what they say which can last for 6-8mnths at worst. I now realise that I have played a big role in this interaction...which I have to stop. These include not asking for help from them at all - only when it is on your terms. And most importantly not accepting money from them.

I too have a brother who is 28 who is almost identical to your brother (it made me laugh coz you could be telling my story!). I think it is very difficult for other people to understand the depth that the emotional blackmailing gets to when you are an outsider and how the old interaction is so ingrained that if you try to talk to them in an "adult way" - they immediately try to push you back into the old patterns.

I just wanted to say...please, please read this book since it helped me so much. I am thinking of getting a few more like the Dan Neuharth one to try to learn new ways of engaging with my parents. It has been the hardest few months since I now realise I can't go on the way I have been with my parents - not when it is compromising my happiness.

In regards to your situation - only you can know what is right, and sometimes things can get so bad that considering a complete break seems the easiest way out. But perhaps taking some time to read about controlling parents, and really understand your parents motivation for their actions will help you decide the best course of action. DO NOT listen to those people who say this is all in your head, and you are overreacting or whatever...because you are NOT. There are many people in the same situation as you - like me. I am rooting for you!

PS One thing I have noted is that some people I have talked to may not be that sympathetic since they don't have any understanding of what it is like - so I am careful who I talk to. They don't know what they don't know.

I think that people ought to take note of all this. I know that people who are posting have much younger DCs, but they are very controlling-want to monitor everything they eat, have their DC hold the same beliefs as them, open their post, not go on school trips, not go in someone else's car etc etc. Unless they gradually let go all through childhood and allow the DC to take their own risks and make mistakes they end up still expecting control when they have a DC in their 20's!

Instead of 'toxic' then, let's say 'coccyx'. Because this is where these kind of parents swipe you. Hard. Knock you off balance with their emotional brickbats.

Agree with Attila - even if it's just the sentiment that if you read about the worse case scenarios if you like, in books and on the internet sites (there are many good ones - (thank god for google in these comlicated times) - then you can begin at least to define/recognise what you might be dealing with and learn coping strategies.

Your eventualy coping strategy might indeed be to just sever things eventually - if she can't/won't change or becomes more angry or abusive once you start standing up for yourself and putting your own needs and feeling and those of your immediate family first (ie your dc, you and your dh!)

It's one thing to be pissed of with one's mother and irritated by her. It's quite another to be stressed, unable to sleep, posting on MN and not wanting to answer the phone to her.

That isn't a normal level of pissed-offness.

You are a grown-up now. Yu have dc of your own. Having child does indeed make you you reflect on yur own parenting, as it should. Congratulations on your baby and well done for starting to say to yourself 'my mother is getting me down and I have to do something about it'.

PS Attila, you are so very tolerant and express yourself so well. I wish I had discovered MN years ago.

Attila's advice is always relevant because she's offering Wigglesworth a point of view that she may not have considered herself. Many people believe that its completely unacceptable to create boundaries with their parents. Many women also think that, even though they've just had a baby, they should put everyone elses feelings first. So it can be refreshing to read that its okay to look after yourself, even if it means upsetting your parents (who in fact should be looking after your feelings at a vulnerable time like this)

So in other words the OP can look at the opinion and take it or leave it. You can never convince someone that their family is toxic!! Its very often the opposite- that people with controlling parents refuse to see how bad it is. It is so extremely painful to create boundaries with parents that nobody would do it just at the drop of a hat (or because of something they'd read on the internet), without considering seriously whether it was the right thing. That means deep down they already have a sneaking suspicion that their parents are control freaks. REading about it can merely bring their attention to it.
So nobody needs to worry that Attila's advice is going to steer Wigglesworth off in the wrong direction. If the advice doesn't hit the right buttons, it will be ignored (although it looks to me like some of it does make sense to Wigglesworth)