Controlling parents. Long Sorry.

[Wigglesworth]

I am at my wits end! I am 28 married and I have a 4 month old DS and my parents are trying to control my life, I am so stressed and it keeps me awake at night. They see us at least once a week but seemingly this is not enough, I am made to feel guilty they say things like "oh well I don't know when we will see you again" in a ho hum tone of voice. I feel obliged to go round there or invite them here, but when I do see them my Mum constantly interferes and asks me questions which I answer but then she disagrees with me all the time.
I think my Mum thought I wouldn't be able to cope with being a Mum and would be calling on her all the time, which I haven't and TBH would be my worst nightmare. I think she is secretley bitter about it too, my Dad remarked on what a happy baby DS is now (was a screamy nightmare at first!) and how I am doing a good job. All my Mum could say is "well it helps when you have an "easy baby"." He is not "easy" at all.
They are constantly asking me when will they see me and when I give them an answer they don't like their tone makes me feel guilty. I want to have a life and I feel like I am always having to make excuses for not seeing them. Sometimes I just can't be arsed with them.
They also just assume that when I go back to work that my Mum will be having DS, and not bothered to ask me about it. My Mum says things like "oh you won't want to leave him will you, don't worry I will bring him to see in your lunch hour!" It just seems like she can't wait to get me out of the way. He is actually booked into nursery for 3 days a week and I was going to ask her if she can look after him for 1 day a week. I am now starting to think that I don't want her to look after him at all and I think I am just doing the one day a week with her to keep her happy. Although I know this won't be enough for her cos she will want to look after him full time.
I just don't know where to start dealing with all this. I don't want to hurt or offend them and if I talk to them I know I will just break down. They don't understand how much this hurts me and I feel like I don't want to be around them cos they treat me like a child all the time. HELP!!

Parents who try to make you feel guilty about not necessarily wanting to see them every week are definitely controlling and need boundaries.

I have lots of friends who have had babies and their mothers or their MILs have behaved as if they cannot wait to get the new mothers out of the way and act as if they should be given priority in terms of any plans the new mums might make during the week.

It's without exception caused hurt and confusion. But I think it's a common behaviour.

Stand your ground, Wigglesworth and don't feel guilty. You sound like a considerate person.

I really wouldn't let her look after your child for one day a week. If she's undermining you now with negativity, it'll only get worse if she's left alone as the child's carer. She'll definitely think she has a say in how the child should be brought up and will be massively offended if you say otherwise.

Hello. I'm afraid you can't make the situation fair to yourself without hurting them. Sounds like they use this to get what they want, but this hurts you.

You've got to be fair to yourself, then that will give them a clue about how to treat you. But it will take time and, like another poster said, you've got to grow a thick skin.

Good luck.

Sorry to against the majority, but I agree with every word Atilla has written.

this mother IS controlling, and even if it is not as bad as some, it is not nice. When the father said what a good job his daughter was doing, why did her mum not back him up, why the 'well when you have an easy baby' comment?

Sounds like she wants to be in the driving seat all the time, and no, they don't change. They are unreasonable. They hate being challenged. Because they are unreasonable.

And you cannot talk to them as Atilla said. People who behave like this, do not like being challenged.

Wiggle, I also feel sorry for your dad .

Unfirtunately, it is very hard to find middle ground with mothers like this. It is usually all (of their bullshit) or nothing.

From experience, I went down the 'nothing' route, and have never felt such freedom

My mum was also a bit like this when I was growing up. One day i stood up to her emotional blackmail as a teenager. She was wanting me to be someone I couldn't and didn't want to be, and told me she thought I was a cruel daughter for not doing the right thing. I was about 17. I told her I didn't care what she thought, why should I? Becaie she was a cruel, unloving mother for expecting the things she did expect of me.

The fact that I (finally) didn't care changed things a bit. Although it took time and more of me rejecting the guilt and not engaging with her shit. My mother did, and still does, love me. She was just bought up to think she had to be a certain way and could expect certain things of her daughter in the same way. She's changed now.

So I'm hoping OPoster will not have to have nothing Lovesdogsandcats. OP, you obviously love them or the guilt wouldn't get to you. But the only way you can show your mum that she shouldn't treat you in this way is to refuse to take it, not feel the guilt, because you shouldn't.

and it sounds like you know in your head you shouldn't, but your feelings haven't caught up yet so you still feel the guilt. (forgot to add)

You are all sooo right, she does try to make me feel like I am mean. I don't like that feeling cos I know I am not mean and selfish, I am reasonable and listen to peoples point of view. She hasn't directly said so (yet) but i think she does believe she should be given priority as she is family. Perhaps if she treated me with a little respect I would want to spend more time with her. If she would acknowledge the fact that I am DS mother and although she may not agree with everything I do she will have to accept it cos me and DH are raising him.
My DH is fantastic, he knows everything and supports me. In fact he warned me that this may happen before we had DS as he knows what she is like and her attitude towards me. I dismissed it (in denial probably) and told him it would be fine. He was right though but he doesn't rub my face in it he just listens to me vent and offers good advice, very diplomatic.
I am waiting for the after everything we have done for you, you are so selfish etc. bit from her.
Although DH is a good listener it is great to come on here and speak to people who have similar experiences and have dealt with this before. I am a new Mum and I clearly under estimated the massive emotional impact this would have on my life and relationships. I feel I have to protect my DS and I want nothing but the best for him and not have GP's interfering cos ultimately that can destroy families and cause years of resentment long after they have passed on. I have seen it happen in my family (my brother) and DH's family (with my DH). Thankyou all so much for your support and advice, I know my problem is a little trivial compared to a lot of threads on here so thanks for taking time to read mine. x

Kneedeep, you are right in that if wiggle does stand up to her mother, and mother listens, she may get somewhere. That is assuming there is a reasonable gene in the mother, alas a lot of them are missing it.

But, if she is anything like mine and lots on here, she will take it as criticism, will refuse to listen, storm off and do the ignoring trick..until..well, until forever in my case, but until she regains top position and her daughter is firmly in her place..and so the cycle continues.

I hope to god that if my dd ever had a problem with me and the way I behave, I would listen!! I hope I have learnt from my own mothers mistakes.

I remember the way I felt as NOT trivial. good luck. Don't let your DS grow up feeling the same way about her as you do, guilt etc.

wriggle it sound slike you have done nothing wrong, and if you asked her, what you have done or said that is so bad, she will not be able to answer.

Wigglesworth

Your problem is not at all trivial compared to some on these pages. Do not underestimate what emotional harm these people can do.

Would agree fully with the recent response made by Lovesdogsandcats. These poeple are missing the empathy and being reasonable genes and are thus incapable of listening fully to any reasoned argument that you may put forward.

Your Mother will likely come out with the "after all we've done for you" comments amongst others.

FOG - fear, obligation, guilt. These are the sticks that are being used by your Mum to beat you with.

Cats and dogs you are right, she does want the Top spot all the time. She can't have it with my brother cos he would tell her to F**k off, she has never had any control over him. My Dad only takes so much off her, she is very critical of him, he makes her tea and stuff and she just criticises it (he's served her too much, it's over cooked etc etc.) it makes me cringe. Eventually he will put her in her place but he is a very patient man with her, most would have buggered off long ago. I think I am the only thing in her life she feels she can have control over and if that is challenged she see's her arse and starts the emotional guilt trip.

What is the Fear Obligation Guilt thing you talk about?

Wigglesworth - good luck to you, I hope you get this sorted.

FWIW my mother still treats me like I am 12 (I am in my early 40's) and I hate it, I have started to argue back with her and she does not like it, there is only one opinion that counts and it ain't mine.

I feel sorry for her, she needs to get out more and my poor dad, well I don't know how he puts up with her.

I remember years ago when DH and I were looking for our first house, we liked some houses not far from my parents and she was so desperate for us not to move away, that she got my dad to say to us that they were selling like hotcakes and we needed to get in fast to bypass the agents and knock on the doors of the ones that were for sale - she admitted this later on. We live 40 miles away now and it is just the right distance.

FOG

You're fearful of her

You feel obligated to her

You feel guilty towards her

All these are sticks that she uses as part of her controlling nature to beat you with.

She's given up on your Brother as a lost cause because she cannot manipulate him so instead she has honed her controlling nature on you, her daughter. Not just to say her husband as well but he could be seen also as a bystander because he seemingly did not protect you both as children from her excessive behaviours.

Wiggle, At least once a week sounds A LOT to me! How often do your friends see theirs?

How often do you other MNers see yours?

We see PILs about once a month and my parents once every 4 months ish (but have a very distant relationship with them so I know this isn't 'normal').

I agree, from watching my MIL's behaviour, that the grandparents can really struggle with the change in family dynamics. It can be really hard for them to accept that they aren't the No 1 Mum anymore because you are! Especially if they based all their identity on being a Mum or caring for someone and now this isn't their job anymore. They are desperate to still feel important so they like it if you need their help and advice. In your case you are doing a great job without your mother's interference but she feels unimportant so she asks loads of questions and looks for things to be 'wrong' so she can 'help' you with them.

I can understand why some grandparents are like this and sympathise a bit but I think they are being very selfish. They should see that the most important thing is the new mother's bond with her child and make sure that they do not get in the way of that. The new mother needs to have space to find her own natural way with their child. If you ask for their help/advice they should give it but otherwise keep their mouths shut and their beaks out unless the child is being abused.

They should also keep in mind that a new mother is more vulnerable emotionally than them with their little bit of wounded self importance. Your needs are more important than hers because if you are not well, physically and emotionally, it will affect the quality of your parenting. So it isn't just important for you but important for your child.

Could you say things like "It's important for me, baby and new daddy to have enough space to adjust to being a family in our own natural way without outside interference", "For most people once a week visits are a lot! We would like to stick to x per week/month. I know you love to see DS as much as possible and that is nice but x per week/month is what we can cope with before we feel under pressure", "We have decided it is best for DS to go to nursery x times a week/every day because it is good for his social development and prepares him for eventually, school", "We don't want him to be in too many places with different rules at the moment in case it is confusing for him so home and nursery is enough". When she is criticising could you say "I feel I'm doing quite well with DS, I feel a bit upset that you don't seem to think so", "We are doing things the way we think is right. It may not be the same way you did things but times and childrearing methods have changed and there has been lots of research since then".

I don't know enough about your parents to agree or disagree about whether they are toxic (although it sounds very possible), or just 'going overboard' with their feelings about being grandparents (my MIL definitely did and I think she has lots of things wrong with her as a mother but don't think I would call her toxic). If she is not toxic then she will probably calm down over time if you are firm with her. If she is toxic then she won't change. You probably know deep down which it is if you listen to your instincts. If your instincts do say that she could be harmful to your DS in any way then you must keep him away from her, but you know that.

Cutting off completely is a massive decision you shouldn't make quickly and maybe not while your hormones are still not settled and you are tired and still adjusting. She does sound like she is slowing down your recovery from the birth/shocks of new motherhood though and it would do you lots of good to cut down the contact. Remember that the feelings of you, DS and DH are much more important than your mothers at this crucial stage and listen to your own instincts about what your little family needs. You must put them first now.

Um, for what it's worth, I wonder whether this is the right time to make such black and white judgements of your mother. You have just undergone a massive emotional and physical upheaval in your life and it takes a little time for everyone to 'settle' into their roles and accept that this is the way things are going to be.
If you think you are depressed talk to your health visitor and do not make any rash judgements until you are feeling better.
I would be wary of buying into some of these people's interpretations of your situation - you don't know who they are and some of the advice you are getting chills me to the bone.
Don't cut yourself off from your family, your mother may be annoying, she certainly isn't perfect, but I'm sure she loves you and your son and that counts for alot.
Also free childcare is not something to be turned down easily and at least you know he will be looked after by someone who loves him

Just read the posts that arrived while I was drivelling on and on writing mine! The more you write the more it does sound like she is toxic and no good for your self esteem . The question is whether you think she can change? If she can that is good. If she can't then hoping for things from her which you never get, and making efforts with her and worrying about what to do is going to disappoint you and hurt you every time when it doesn't change anything.

How would you explain her Mother's reaction towards W's brother and her husband?. You may of course disagree with what has been written but I do not write such responses at all lightly. I have seen at first hand the emotional harm that overtly controlling mothers can do to their offspring (not just to say gc).

People who fortunately do not come from controlling family units seem to think that talking to these people will operate a "light switch" response - that something will be triggered to change the behaviours. Unfortunately talking to them does not work at all well; they see any argument as an attack on them.

Wiggleworth has undergone a huge change in her life and she is now a parent but it still does not change the fact that her own Mother wants to remain top dog within her own family unit.

I'm sure that W's mother loves her and her grandson but its not unconditional.

I would ditch the idea of your mum caring for your DS one day a week because you said you feel you would only be doing it for her, and that is not the point of childcare is it? The point is for the child to be happy and for the parents to be happy with their decision. You sound like nursery is your preferred choice, therefore send your son to nursery and don't apologise to anyone! I think your mum does need some boundaries and you need some distance, so this would be a good place to start.

I had some problems with my parents (who are NOT controlling or toxic) initially. My stepdad found it very hard not to see me and my DH in the role of 'the children' and it did lead to some clashes. Not major ones, just stuff like him continuing to over stimulate DS when he needed to sleep and then not stopping when asked. It was a bit tense for a couple of weeks while we dealt with it but then they got over the shock of not being 'the parents' any more and we all get on famously again. Sometimes you have to have these difficult moments to move on in life. If your mum is a decent person she will let you move on too - if not then you will have to re-evaluate your relationship with her, and the relationship/time she will have with your DS.

I also agre with nicky that now is not a great time to be making rash judgements - you are exhausted, everyone is settling into new roles and you might be depressed. You might feel differently about this in a few months time. In the meantime make the decisions that are important to you, eg nursery and seeing less of your mum, and save the big ones for later.

Attila I find it sad that you feel people have no capacity to change. I came from a toxic family, if that is what you would call a mad, controlling, violent, sexually abusing father and a mother who was too cowed and later self absorbed to take proper care of her children. I had a bad relationship with my mum for years but for the past 15 years she has changed beyond all recognition, yet there was no sign of it when I was 18. She is a great mum and GP now. Part of it is my doing because I told her and showed her what she was doing wrong and how it made me feel, and she gradually took it on board.

Making sweeping judgements about 'these people' is not helpful when you have not even met them. People do have the capacity to change. Acting the victim and not even trying to show people what is wrong about their behaviour is appropriate in some cases, but I am uneasy with the way you have jumped in on this thread. It is like that paediatrician who said that a child was killed by his father on the basis of a tv interview.

Excellent posts Blinglovin.

I've been thinking about this and I wonder how well you know your mother? Have you talked to her about her upbringing, what her parents were like and how she feels about the way her life has turned out. Am I right in thinking she has recently lost her own mother?
My own 06ther could be descr5bed as a 'toxic' parent but I know what an unsettled and sometimes sad life my mother had. But she always put me first, loved me beyond measure and although sometimes she pisses me off with controlling behaviour, it's just who she is, warts and all. I can't think of anyone who has perfect parents - part of growing up is accepting that they are human and flawed. Are you able to get to a point when you can talk to her a little about how she is feeling? If you find some common ground maybe you can move forward

Thanks sunflower!

While I still don't feel the OPs parents need a massively aggressive approach, I do have every sympathy for her because the truth is that a lot of parents can't change - provinciallady you were lucky if you feel you were able to get your parents to change.

In my case, my parents mean well and I certainly wouldn't call my mother toxic, but... I do need to put very clear boundaries in place and protect myself from the feelings of guilt she induces in me. As I said on another post - she's like a child who needs consistent boundaries, spelled out with consistent punishment for stepping over the line etc.

Still agreeing with Attila...

To those who disagree, I think its better that Wrigglesworth is informed of the nature of such people as her mother (seems to be), so she can better stand up to her and be aware of the behaviours people like her mother seem to be using to get their own way, and make Wrigglesworth feel like a bad person.

I do not advocate breaking contact at this stage, by all means cutting down of contact is important to get some distance, take a breathe, work out what is right for her and her new family...and also work out plan B...cause plan A ie going along with the controlling is not working and is making Wrigglesworth unhappy/stressed at such an important time for her. Noone NOONE should make you feel like that at such a time, let alone the person who is meant to love you the most/support you the most in the world. It sends a very negative message ie I don't think you can cope and you are not doing a good job. What a knock to anyones self esteem/confidence and from the most 'loving' person in her life!!

Wrigglesworth, I'm sure you will take all the conflicting advice on board and make the right decision for you and your new family

And just think about FOG...why do you not say something to your mother? Because you fear what she will say? that she will reject/abandon you? She will make you feel like a small child again? She will dismiss your feelings? Obligation...you feel obliged...after all she has done ie brought you up and put up with you as a child to give her what she wants now? Bringing up a child in my eyes is 'no strings attached'. And guilt...well you've mentioned this a few times already...

FWIW my dh and I both believe that our dd and dd to be owe us NOTHING. Yes it would be extremely upsetting not to be in contact when they are older, but you cannot force a relationship on someone that does not want it. It goes against every rule in the book. Our dd's lives are their own, not ours, and their choices as they get old enough to make them, are their own. All you can do when they reach 16 is let them go and hope that you have parented them well enough that they make the right choices in life for them. If they fail...I say that says something about your failure as a parent, not them as an individual. Ie grow up to be a drug dealer...well something went wrong on the way there! Moral standards/boundries etc...with children/adult children what you see is a reflection of your parenting skills. Now come flame me for that one! And yes it scares the bejesus out of me...but that's parenting for you...its walking on a tightrope every day.

I also ferreted out this poem...don't usually like them (ie sickly) but I think this is quite helpful on how to parent, to look back at how you were parented...

Children Learn What They Live

If a child lives with criticism,
He learns to condemn.
If a child lives with hostility,
He learns to fight.
If a child lives with ridicule,
He learns to be shy.
If a child lives with shame,
He learns to feel guilty.
If a child lives with tolerance,
He learns to be patient.
If a child lives with encouragement,
He learns confidence.
If a child lives with praise,
He learns to appreciate.
If a child lives with fairness,
He learns justice.
If a child lives with security,
He learns to have faith.
If a child lives with approval,
He learns to like himself.
If a child lives with acceptance and friendship,
He learns to find love in the world.

• Dorothy Low Nolte -

And here endeth the sermon...amen.

Blinglovin I do realise that many people can't or won't change. I just feel that if you don't even try, you have effectively written your parents off and that can't be an easy thing to do either. I wouldn't like to have to live with the emotional fallout. For my own self esteem I would want to try and change my own behaviour and reactions to my DP before I decided they were beyind hope.