This is a desperate cry for help

[LearningCurve]

Please help. I have wanted to post something for a long time and have been too scared to, but I have to do something. I feel utterly alone, have nobody to talk to about this.

My marriage is in the worst place a marriage could possibly be. I have been with DH for 7 years, married for 3, and after a blissful, happy honeymoon period of about 9 months, things started to change and they have got progressively worse (with several more happy times scattered thinly here and there).

My husband is very moody and very defensive.He gets annoyed and sulks if I am upset about something. He ignores me all the time. We have been to two different couples counselors, and with the 2nd one, we had quite a breakthrough. She was the person who pointed out that DH had quite an issue with defensiveness. I just hadn't seen it before and in a way, her bringing it to my attention has made things unbearable as I can clearly see that this is a HUGE cause of most of our upsets.

Over the years we have had long, hideous upsets. I have done things I am not proud of - I have shouted and screamed, I have pummelled his chest with my fists, I have gouged my own arms in desparation. I am weeping as I write this as it sounds so hideous, but I truly believe that my behavious has ALWAY followed him being moody and defensive, not being there when I need him, not responding when I am upset. He has a very stern, expressionless face when I am upset.

We have a darling 2 year old DS and I am 26 weeks pregnant. We recently moved for DS new job, so I am in a new country, thousands miles from home, no friends, no support network. I can't bear to tell my family the truth about our relationship and I don't know who to turn to in my group of friends - I am ashamed to admit things and don't want their view of me/us to change.

Reading another thread just now on MN, someone made a joke about 'passive-agressive' behaviour. I have heard the phrase but didn't know what it really meant, so looked it up. I read several pages of descriptions of this behaviour and was shocked to find that every single sentence was describing my husband.

I love him, which is the answer to 'WHy do I stay with him?'. We have a child together, and another one on the way so I cannot see an option of leaving, esp when we have just moved. I just want to be in a marriage where I feel supported and loved. We rarely have sex, we argue most days, I end up sobbing hysterically behind a locked bathroom door.

I am torturing myself with guilt about what damage my being so upset so much of the time could be doing to my unborn baby.

Since we moved here, a very dear family member has passed away, and a lump has been found in my breast during an exam with the midwife, so I am now waiting 2 weeks to have a scan and mammogram to see what that is.

I am so scared, and wish my husband could be there for me, but he seems to be oblivious to how his behavious makes me feel.

I stood on a busy bridge over a freeway our first week over here and thought what it would be like to jump. I DO NOT WANT TO HARM myself - I am just saying this to point out how unhappy I feel. It is the worst thing in the world to know that you are in such depths of despair and can do nothing about it. I have to be here for my DC. I want to be here for my DH, I want to be a good, loving wife, but I feel I get nothing from him most of the time.

I feel ignored on a daily basis. The passive aggressive thing has really freaked me out.

I dont know what to do - please if anyone can offer me any words of comfort or advice. I am going to find a counselor here to go and speak to, maybe on my own, maybe that would be best for now.

I feel sick now at the thought of posting this, and this is probably so long that noone will be bothered to read it.

It sounds stupid to say this, but apart from huge problems with DH in our marriage, we have a happy life, nice friends, nice families on both side, we are comfy financially, I feel blessed in so many ways, which makes it all the more difficult as I feel guilty for feeling that things are so hideous when other people have so many problems that are worse to deal with than relationship issues.

I have just read back what I have written and can see that it doesnt make much sense, that a lot of you might read this and think what does he do that is so bad? This is why I am hoping that someone reading this might have had experience of living with someone who is moody and defensive or passive aggressive. Its not so bad, looking at one isolated incident, but when you are on the receiving end of this kind of behaviour again and again, day after day, don't feel your DH is there for you when you have tears streaming down your face, just looks moody and gets annoyed, it is pretty soul destroying. Oh, I am just making this worse, the more I write so I will stop now and hope someone can make sense of it.

Neerly3, wow, you could be descibing my DH. I am trying hard to stand up to my DH, unfortunately we have been married 21yrs and he has had his way all the time. It may take a lot of my time and effort to get through to him, but I am trying. I'm happy for you.

I do agree that you need to look to yourself first. ADs may help. Counselling may help. It doesn't matter atm how you got where you are, that is what you can and have to deal with. Once you are on a more even keel it will be easier to cope with DH and all the other issues in your life. I have always found that ADs helped to balance me and made all the other things that were looming around me manageable.

I would say that sometimes men seem to get worn down by too much emotion. It as if storms of emotion make them put up a shell as protection. When I'm really depressed DH withdraws. When I most need him he isn't there. When I'm back to normal, he is more supportive. I used to be a very gushy emotional person - I used to wear my heart on my sleeve. For a long time he responded as I wanted him to, but then I think I wore him down. Now, TBH, I could cry myself to sleep and I'd get no more than a cursory 'you alright?'. But I don't. I've changed a little to suit him, and he's changed a little to suit me.

Good luck. I hope life gets a little easier soon.

'passive aggressive' God that is how my ex dp was. had a 3 year relationship but i ended it as basically i didn't really love him (head in sand, long story etc) i would have been in trouble if i had have really loved him.

i am now with my lovely dp for 8 years and he has taught me ALOT with regards to communication.

on your second post (sorry habven't read past that one as had to reply) you mention dh coming home and basically the spiral downwards. How about turning these exchanges on it's head? What about DH has been in a new job (stay with me here) and he has a young family, 1000's of miles from home, pg wife who has lost someone in the family. He comes home and then you say 'I'm so upset with you becasue xyz' He thinks oh god here we go.......straight on the defensive Now I am not saying that his behaviour is in ANY way right at all and I am NOT belittling your stresses and your situation, they sound AWFUL and I do feel for you.

How about when he comes home you say (and I KNOW this may be hard) 'How has your day been?' You sit there and listen. Gradually the atmosphere relaxes and then you can say 'Oh it was awful dropping ds off at a new nursery, he cried' etc. You may geta better response (not saying you will). You could mention 'I love it when you call during the day as I like hearing your voice' Flatter his intangibles.

I'm sorry if this has been suggested before/whether you've tried it. I know there are certain times that I actively avoid talking about important things with dp as it's not the right time. (He is not passive aggressive but can be in his own world/stressed with work and I know now's not a good time) I find the right time to talk about my issues (usually when he's feeling relaxed/refreshed)

Neeerly3 and Ive gotaheadache, thanks so much for sharing all that personal information.

I can totally relate to what you are saying. It is comforting to hear that other people have reacted in the same way as me when faced with this behaviour, makes me feel I'm not so crazy. Although of course am so sorry for what you have been through. Neerl3, you in particular have given me lot to think about.

I have to confess, I am scared of going on Antidepressants. I was on them briefly about 8 years ago to treat anxiety (mainly caused by early 20s insecurities, bad living situation etc). Moved docs quite a bit so didn't have good continuity of care and finally decided to just stop taking them all by myself one day, which I have since discovered is not the advised way to come off them.

Anyway, that was a long time ago, and I seem to have developed a fear of them now, that is holding me back:

1. They will have a bad effect on my abilitiy to be a good mother
2. They will turn me into a zombie
3. They will not work and I will have to take stronger and stronger doses and end up a chronic depressive (I have watched this happen to my parents good friend who has been on different cocktails of drugs for years and just sits in a chair now)
4. If my brain chemical levels or whatever, are fine, and this is all just caused by DH behaviour, isn't it bad or damaging to go on AD's unnecessarily?
5. I am angry that his behaviour may have got to the stage where it pushes me into having to take medication. Why can he just not be nicer to me and I will immediately be better and not have to take drugs?
6. Dont want to take them while pg, or bf.
7. My grandfather suffered from depression (was on lithium, which always makes me think it was a pretty heavy type of depression). Scared I am going to end up like him, so avoiding ADs at all costs.

There - anyone care to comment? Since I have started the ball rolling by posting in the first place might as well roll out all the skeletons in my closet - it is halloween after all!

Sorry again for all these longwinded posts, it's difficult to keep it brief.

Would really like to hear back from some of you who have posted earlier.

Hi LearnignCurve, It occurs to me that if you feel scared of ADs maybe you should go for the counselling first. It mite have the desired effects without you having to take ADs, or alternatively your counsellor mite be able to help you with your fears surrounding ADs. Couselling has GOT to help at least somewhat, so that surely has to be the first step. At least it will give you someone to talk to about all this and soemone to cry to who actually listens and says all the right things; that has to be a good thing seeing as your DH certainly doesn't seem able to listen and say the right things.
If you focus on yourself then as Neerly points out you'll probably feel stronger and less affected by his silence, and therefore more able to tell him what he needs to do without sobbing and shrieking. He mite not be cruel; he mite just be utterly crap at dealing with emotions.

Thanks peasoup, appreciate your thoughts.

I have a session booked to talk to a councellor next week, so that's a positive move.

Anyone else any thoughts on pros and cons of taking ADs - particularly want to know about what happens if you are not depressed and take ADs - does it do damage?

Also, neeerly3, if you are around, would really like to talk to you more. Anyone know where i can find her?

I have never taken ADs so cannot comment BUT i have worked with people who were on them and got them off them by "talking therapy".

I personally am very much against ADs unless someone has a proven clinical need -rather than a load of shit in their lives that needs sorting.

Look at it this way- they might blunt the pain but they don't make the cause go away.

Some people do have chemical imbalance and need ADs for ever- but not everyone.

They are not "happy pills"- you can't take them forever to avoid dealing with stuff.

If you are rational enough and able to think "should I take them/should I not" then that to me is proof that you don't need them!

It's a bit like when Shakespeare wrote on madness- "the worst is not the worst as long as we can say it is"...or words along those lines.

Hi again learningcurve!

I am on ADs and I just love em! I take two tabs of 20mg fluoxetine (prozac) a day. One in the morning and one at about 4pm. They even out the stresses. They do not cure the cause of me being on them in the first place, obviously. But in my mind they are like a very useful, and loved, worn old walking stick. They just prop me up until I get my fully-functioning legs back.

Do not be scared of them. You won't end up a dribbling eejit in an armchair talking to the wind. That only happens in movies. If you are well enough to know you need them then take them. It's only a bit of advice and a small snapshot of my experience.

I was very moved by neerly3's lovely story too. The fantastic thing about mumsnet I think, is that it gives you many many sides of a prism and unlocks new ideas and thoughts - it helps you eliminate what is not a possible solution, if you like. That is why we are here. Well, me anyway - I do care about people being miserable and want to help.

It occurs to me that you have not mentioned breast lump at all for a while. You should probably start putting yourself first in your life. In the nicest possible way: make sure you stay alive, stay healthy, go to the doctor, the dentist, dont' get pissed too often, laugh a lot, see your friends, be the happiest loveliest person you can be for your DCs. Because that is really what matters. You are raising a new generation and it will make a difference to them, how you are now.

So go and get some ad's, scoff them, go out with your mates, decide slowly and rationally if your H is going to piss you off and make you feel low for the rest of your precious life, sing a bit, rememberthat your first duty now is to your children not another adult who makes you cry in bathrooms. And Live a little.

God I sound like one of the Carpenters.
Pass the coke

Learning curve, i just want to give you a huge cuddle, i am depressed and on ADs, and you describe exactly how my DP is with me sometimes, its horrible isn't it. My DP IS under tremendous pressure and i guess he just zones out, but i don't really want to get into that - i am having counselling, and we are getting much better. SO, thats a good thing, there could well be light at the end of the tunnel - the reason my DP is so cold, because he just doesn't understand my constant need for reassurance and why i just can't "live my life" his words.

I want to address your Q re ADs.

Firstly, they can work regardless of whether your situation is because of your DHs behaviour or not. Bad things happen to people and if enough bad stuff happens or it goes on too long, you can become depressed. This in itself alters your brain chemistry - you produce less seratonin and it really does become a vicious circle, because the less seratonin you produce, the worse your brain becomes at using it and worse than that still, it ends up telling itself to produce less - that is very basic and hopefully ive not confused you.

So, going onto ADs that sort seratonin levels is a positive thing, regardless, imo of the cause of the depression. They are not a cure, oh no no no - ive been on them for a year and im so much better than i was (this happened almost over night) but im not better - yet - i AM getting there though. Its a hard battle sometimes.

What they can do, is just take the edge off of anxieties for you, help you let things go sometimes when, if you are anything like me, you might have been like a rotweiller with a bone - garunteed to make my DP switch off.

There are lots of new ADs out there, much improved on how things used to be - i think you should consider it. There ARE side effects, but i certainly don't notice anything now. Typically people experience side effects for the first couple of weeks and it settles down as the AD effects start to kick in.

What they wont do, is mask your problems, but just put you in a place where you can face them.

HTH and good luck.

You wont do yourself any harm if you go onto ADs if you are not "depressed". I have no clinical diagnosis, but i certainly need them. If you don't need them, they simply wont work, because of the way they work is by helping the body utilise the seratonin (for example, a "happy hormone") it produces more efficiently, rather than pumping more seratonin into the system.

only read through first page of post but just wanted to say a few things
firstly, so sorry for you and your situation.

I once was in a very similar place married to a cold man and moved to sweden to live with him away from my family friends in the uk.
I did everything you described except I didnt have children. I attacked him out of desperation, for his 'stonewalling' -

I agree with Unlikelyamazonian with what she has written on the first page, would second all of that.

I loved my first husband so much, but am now married to someone who genuinely cares - would never stonewall, will always ask etc...
And tragically, my first (cold) husband left me.I nearly killed my self about 40 times.

But today, I am SO glad he did. So glad to be away from that hell. A few people asked me in sweden whether or not he loved me. That question really hurt, but i notice people have asked you the same. You must consider this carefully,

I would advise you to sit tight until after your breast examination and baby and then consider your options once baby is about 6 months old maybe?
I REALLY dont think he will change.
You need to be well for the sake of your children, having a husband that makes you feel this way virtually all of the time is detrimental to your health.
very best of luck and sending you a hug from the uk

not sure you can or should be taking ads when pg or bf...just read some of last page

I have taken them about 8 years ago, great they numbed the emotional pain, i didnt burst into tears every minute. But I wouldnt use them again. Prefer counselling and actually resolving the thing that is causing me to cry endlessly.

By the way, i forgot to say that you should wait to make big decisions till after baby because pregnancy really heightens your emotions

Hi everyone - unlikelyamazonian, haven't mentioned the lump because trying not to think about it/make a big deal of it, just getting through the wait for the scan next fri as best I can. My mum reckons if it was something really serious and they were very concerned they would have rushed me to have a scan rather than waiting. I hope and pray she's right

I bought a book today called 'living with the passive aggressive man'. I am finding it very insightful. I feel like since having the guts to post on here, it is acting as a catylist (sp?) for me to start doing ANYTHING and EVERYTHING i can to help myself (and therefore my husband too...still smarting from the 'me, me, me comments earlier ).

Also, still looking out for neeerly3 if she is around...would be nice to hear from her again, since her post struck such a chord with me.

learning curve, sorry chick, i don't get on much in evenings - was trick or treating last night!

I am here, please mail me on emclayton at yahoo dot com or post here again.....

r u there LC?

Hi Neeerly3 - sorry, blasted time difference means keep missing you - this time I was out trick or treating!!

Prob wont be around much on MN over the weekend but, will try and contact you on your email address at some point if you are ok with that - thanks for giving it.

Will sneak on and look out for you if I can over next couple days!

hey there - i will check my email on monday morning probably, so don't think I'm ignoring you if i don't respond straight away.

Take care
xx

learningcurve You have had some very supportive replies and if nothing else you can take comfort in knowing that people posting here care
I have sympathy with your relationship issues, but i agree with an earlier post that it would seem you are depressed. Maybe the trials of feeling so alone has triggered the depression, whatever the cause ( and most people never know) you need to address that first. Only then with a clear head and a strong sense of how you feel will you really be able to tackle the other issues.

I have had periods of depression from my late twenties. i am now in my mid 30's. I had tried a couple of different ad's and not been well with them at all. So like you i stopped taking them and didnt go to the dr's thinking there was nothing to offer me.
I was wrong. I did take an ad that helped and my only side effect was nausea and that wore off after a few weeks. I took the ad during the first 3 months of my pregnancy. I decided to stop and see a councellor during the remainder of my pregnancy.

Very best of luck with your mammagram. you have undoubtedly some very happy times ahead, another child, a wonderful gift

LearningCurve, have you tried Cognitive Behaviour Therapy? It does seem like you are focusing very much on negative thoughts. (understandable as you are almost certainly suffering from depression)

CBT won't turn your husband into a different person, it won't even necessarily take away your depression, but it may help you to feel that you are more in command of your feelings.

Dd has been taught it for chronic pain. It doesn't stop the pain, but it takes away the feeling of 'I can't bear it' and changes it for a feeling of 'oh yes I can, I'm dealing with it'. Of course, her initial reaction was I don't want to learn this, it isn't fair, I shouldn't have to bear it. To which the only reply was, well maybe things will change, but you need to be able to cope NOW.

It may be possible to change your dh. It is likely that he needs to change. But in the meantime, you need to cope with the here and now. Refusing to accept any other type of help because you shouldn't have to be depressed, does have an element of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Am also not sure that ADs wouldn't be a good idea. Have several friends who have taken them while caring for young children and who have found it helped them to be better mums.

My Mum was depressed during times of my childhood, felt alone in a strange place and unsupported by my Dad (not actually a cold type, just uncertain how to respond). Not perhaps as bad as you, but I wish somebody had got her to the doctor. She recovered afterwards and their marriage survived intact, but she could have done with help.

Remember if this situation goes on, not only will it make you feel worse and worse, but your children will feel terribly torn knowing that you are blaming their Dad for making you ill.

learningcurve (and anyone else in similar position)
who would like to talk

hk78mumsnet @ aol . com

Neerly3 - have finally sent you an email, just thought would let you know to look out for it, in case I end up in your junk mail!!

got it LC, and have replied!