This is a desperate cry for help

[LearningCurve]

Please help. I have wanted to post something for a long time and have been too scared to, but I have to do something. I feel utterly alone, have nobody to talk to about this.

My marriage is in the worst place a marriage could possibly be. I have been with DH for 7 years, married for 3, and after a blissful, happy honeymoon period of about 9 months, things started to change and they have got progressively worse (with several more happy times scattered thinly here and there).

My husband is very moody and very defensive.He gets annoyed and sulks if I am upset about something. He ignores me all the time. We have been to two different couples counselors, and with the 2nd one, we had quite a breakthrough. She was the person who pointed out that DH had quite an issue with defensiveness. I just hadn't seen it before and in a way, her bringing it to my attention has made things unbearable as I can clearly see that this is a HUGE cause of most of our upsets.

Over the years we have had long, hideous upsets. I have done things I am not proud of - I have shouted and screamed, I have pummelled his chest with my fists, I have gouged my own arms in desparation. I am weeping as I write this as it sounds so hideous, but I truly believe that my behavious has ALWAY followed him being moody and defensive, not being there when I need him, not responding when I am upset. He has a very stern, expressionless face when I am upset.

We have a darling 2 year old DS and I am 26 weeks pregnant. We recently moved for DS new job, so I am in a new country, thousands miles from home, no friends, no support network. I can't bear to tell my family the truth about our relationship and I don't know who to turn to in my group of friends - I am ashamed to admit things and don't want their view of me/us to change.

Reading another thread just now on MN, someone made a joke about 'passive-agressive' behaviour. I have heard the phrase but didn't know what it really meant, so looked it up. I read several pages of descriptions of this behaviour and was shocked to find that every single sentence was describing my husband.

I love him, which is the answer to 'WHy do I stay with him?'. We have a child together, and another one on the way so I cannot see an option of leaving, esp when we have just moved. I just want to be in a marriage where I feel supported and loved. We rarely have sex, we argue most days, I end up sobbing hysterically behind a locked bathroom door.

I am torturing myself with guilt about what damage my being so upset so much of the time could be doing to my unborn baby.

Since we moved here, a very dear family member has passed away, and a lump has been found in my breast during an exam with the midwife, so I am now waiting 2 weeks to have a scan and mammogram to see what that is.

I am so scared, and wish my husband could be there for me, but he seems to be oblivious to how his behavious makes me feel.

I stood on a busy bridge over a freeway our first week over here and thought what it would be like to jump. I DO NOT WANT TO HARM myself - I am just saying this to point out how unhappy I feel. It is the worst thing in the world to know that you are in such depths of despair and can do nothing about it. I have to be here for my DC. I want to be here for my DH, I want to be a good, loving wife, but I feel I get nothing from him most of the time.

I feel ignored on a daily basis. The passive aggressive thing has really freaked me out.

I dont know what to do - please if anyone can offer me any words of comfort or advice. I am going to find a counselor here to go and speak to, maybe on my own, maybe that would be best for now.

I feel sick now at the thought of posting this, and this is probably so long that noone will be bothered to read it.

It sounds stupid to say this, but apart from huge problems with DH in our marriage, we have a happy life, nice friends, nice families on both side, we are comfy financially, I feel blessed in so many ways, which makes it all the more difficult as I feel guilty for feeling that things are so hideous when other people have so many problems that are worse to deal with than relationship issues.

I have just read back what I have written and can see that it doesnt make much sense, that a lot of you might read this and think what does he do that is so bad? This is why I am hoping that someone reading this might have had experience of living with someone who is moody and defensive or passive aggressive. Its not so bad, looking at one isolated incident, but when you are on the receiving end of this kind of behaviour again and again, day after day, don't feel your DH is there for you when you have tears streaming down your face, just looks moody and gets annoyed, it is pretty soul destroying. Oh, I am just making this worse, the more I write so I will stop now and hope someone can make sense of it.

Have you asked him if he is happy?

Do you think HE may be depressed and that is why he is behaving like this?

Smug - agree. Largely because they are thinking solely about themselves at these times. They are not truly feeling anything that approaches kindness or love towards the person they can see suffering before their very eyes.

Cold expressionaless face?

Ugh. Ditch it for a face flooded with sunshine and smiles (and normal amounts of grumpiness) and for a body not rigid with holding back but a body leaning forward and into you.

Look at the thread in relationships about 'soulmate' and how lots of people have wonderful partners/h's they love totally and who support and care for them and they are still pinching themselves over...let these posters be your barometer, not the grumpy old expressionless fucker who can't even stand outside the bathroom door his pregnant wife is crying behind and say "can I get you a cup of tea learningcurve? Come on let's talk.....I hate to hear you like this. Open the door, I want to hug you...."

In fact, listen to unlikelyamazonian.

Sometimes it is hard to believe such cold cynicism cant be helped. Sometimes it is hard to understand that there truly IS no warmth lurking beneath the surface.

In fact, I should possibly go post on the soulmate thread, as I DO have a husband who would stand with a cup of tea by the bathroom door, metaphorically. Or rather, I got that, after having a husband who at one stage in our lives had a habit of smashing things through anger and frustration.

Sometimes talking, and working through things actually works. But it is UP TO YOU to decide if your relationship can have a chance. We dont know all the ins and outs, and all your history. Only YOU and HIM can decide if things can change, and love yet again flourish.

Quite. You can decide learningcurve, without fear or favour.

You have the right not to be responsible for other adults' problems.

You have the right to change your life if you are not happy with it as it is.

You have the right to be loved.

You have the right to the kind of things above so long as you do not violate another in the doing of them. You sound as though you have done your best to make things right. But he sounds as though he is violating you by making you so bloody miserable you are staring over bridges and crying in bathrooms even AFTER counselling.
I mean, is your bathroom so far away he cant hear you? Are you royalty? is he crying in the wine vaults?

I hope you are not a troll or gonk or whatever they're called. I don't think you are. Am still a bit fragile myself...

oh god this has made me cry. my dp is very similar . It's so fucking demoralising.

I really feel for you.

Does he spend time with you?

Learning curve ,

Heres what you gotta do ( I see you are i desparately bad and vulnerable place at the moment ...but you are doing the right thing ..Looking for support ).

Tomorrow you MUST speak to a professional . This could be a Doctors appointment Or see the health Visitor Or a sympathetic Midwife . If possible give them advanced warning that you will need extra time ... say theres been a crisis and you need to talk . Could you show them your post here (is articulate and well written ) ? You must tell them how low you are feeling .

Second please try and remember that pregnancy is an emotional time for many of us and hormones may play a big part so ....nows not the time to fix your marriage / husband .

Thirdly ... arrange to see a counsellor alone ... you will prob have to pay ... unless your Dr can provide one .

Next Buy a nice note pad or diary , This is important and try to write down whats bothering you most . It may help to prioritise .

Re the breast lump ... can you get a second opinion . Can they refer you as an Urgent case ... Under the cirmstances it would be helpful if you could get some good medical advice fast .

Where are you ???

Yes, please tell us where you are. It might be different in your neck of the woods, regards to healthcare and councelling. Take me for example, I am in Norway.

Sorry if I sound a bit gung-ho. I am not, believe me. I care about people feeling like they want to be the wrong end of freeway bridges. I have felt like that. But now I am eating a bag of popcorn and don't feel as terrible as before thumbwitch! (a mumsnetter)

(where is thumbwitch? )

Take all the support you can get from the lovely people here on MN and your family...tell your family. Tell people close to you. Reach out. That is a big sign of strength. In my book anyway.

xxx

I can really identify with how you are feeling

But youve latched on to this passive aggressive thing ( you may be right ) and its upset you ......Seeing your hb summarised in two words is upsetting ...of course the real story is much less clearcut .

YOU have an enormous amount on your plate .
You really do .

Try to realise that you are feeling negative about a lot of things ...and prob not thinking very clearly .

Try to focus on You a little .

Unlikelyamazonian - you have summed things up about how I feel pretty accurately.

I agreed to have another baby because I am clinging to the dream I have always had of a happy family. I didn't want my DS to be an only child and as I said in OP, we do go though some good spells, which is of course when this one was conceived.

Your comments are ringing lots of bells so definitely not going to tell you to fark off. Isnt it funny that no matter how bad he makes me feel, reading your comments about him being 'cold and cruel' makes me sad and want to defend him. His behaviour is wrong in my view, i wouldn't go so far as to call him cold and cruel, i do think he is unkind, inconsiderate, selfish and immature, that is the way I would put it (maybe that is just as bad as cold and cruel).

Morethanhate, blinks, dittany, thanks all for your comments - everyone else, sorry not to respond to you all, feel a bit overwhelmed and dont want to ramble on and on, but have been very touched by so many responses.

I actually feel better for actually having the guts to let off steam about this on MN. OK, it's not going to solve anything, it's not RL, but it has been me taking a first step to take action and help myself, soothe all the hurt.

He is so lovely with everyone else, he is a caring, kind person in general, he just has a lot of issues with his defensiveness and deep-rooted behaviour which only emerges in our relationship.

Solidgold - I struggle a bit with your comments about him having a 'right to be the person he is, less demonstrative' because I feel that is one way of putting it, and the other way of putting it is that his behaviour, lack of 'demonstrativeness' or affection if you will, is hurting someone he supposedly loves, and is that ok?

Quintessential - in response to your 'What is it that YOU do that makes him go stone cold and emotionless?' I get upset and cry when he ignores me, or is indifferent when he comes home, or has forgotten something important that is going on (eg someone I love dying) - that is the behaviour that causes him to shut down, and as I see it, my behaviour is caused by him wronging me first by ignoring etc, so what right does he have to get pissed off with the resulting upset he causes.

Aaargh, it's so complicated talking about this stuff. You are probably all in bed anyway cos of time difference over here.

Morethanhate - what you say about being the BIGGER person in the relationship is what I am struggling with right now. I know I will have to accept that he won't be the kind of partner I hoped he would be/would want, and I have to find a way of just not minding, accepting that I will have to lead, be the driver and learn to hide my emotions. Would I be any better off on my own? Would my children? Would I look back in 20 years and wonder why i left and why i didnt just make the most of what I had?

Hopefully counseling will help me talk all this through.

If any of you are still watching this thread or anyone else reads this and cares to comment more, this is really helping me so I thank you very much.

I miss the UK

HE is the only thing in your life making you unhappy.

Wnys tay with him?

Sorry, Why stay with him?

I am glad this is helping somewhat.

Thinking specifically about your response to me; so, you get hurt and upset with him when he is ignoring you and your problems/issues, and THEN he shuts down emotionally. It makes me think he is a bit emotionally stunted, and a little clueless as to reading situations. Do you think he maybe shuts down because he gets upset at his own "indifference", in a sort of " I can do no right, I might as well give up" sort of way?

What would happen if you broke the pattern, and NOT got upset visibly, but talk to him calmly, and ask him about him, and then say something like. "you know, I was taking DC to new nursery today, do you want to know how it went?" rather than being upset he didnt ask? Or "You know, I have been thinking alot today about my family member passing, I need a hug right now."

I dont know if you have tried that approach. But it seems to me that you have emotions like a vulcano on the verge of eruption (I am a bit like that too, and have to curb myself quite a bit, not to go into full grown woman tantrum mode which is much unbecoming), while he just goes into indifference.

Sorry, missed more posts as I was typing away last long post.

Spiderbaby - it is good to hear your instructions on what to do. It is exactly what I think too, so that is confirmation I am doing good things:

Try to focus on pregnancy and forget worries for now (v difficult, but must think of baby)

Get notebook and write things down - yes, i think i have put off for a long time writing it cos didn't want to see in black and white on the page how bad things are, but now I have started writing, it does help get it off my chest, and help me prioritise what it is exactly that upsets me.

Speak to dr or midwife - I am so unfamiliar with people here cos of just moving/the system etc that I can't bear to, but will definitely pay to speak to a counselor. Even though can't really afford it, what better thing to spend money on than trying to sort out my precious relationship and family?

I am in the States - dont really want to say where as risk of RL people working out who i am - also, pretty sure there are not many MNers here...not that I have the biggest MN presence, and have of course name changed.

Yes, quintessential, I am a great big

'volcano on the verge of eruption ...full grown woman tantrum mode'

You made me laugh through the misery, so there is hope for me yet...

This is why i think after two attempts at couples counseling, actually best thing might be to go and just talk about me and my issues and work out what is/isn't acceptable behaviour for me.

Sorry whoever said I was very 'me, me, me' but of course this thread is going to sound like that, I am asking for help with how I am feeling. I am not a self-centred person really (i hope not)

All I want to say is put you and your babies welfare first. You sound like someone who is contemplating your own "problems" not realising (because you're obviously a loving person) that they all originate with the behaviour of someone else. You are a million miles away from selfish, but sometimes you need to take a more detached view of things.

runawayquickly ...you are nice

listen to this girl learningcurve.

Yes. And councelling just for you might be a good idea, to get perspective and maybe some detachment. I wish you the best.

I dont often do these, but what the heck

I think to a certain extent p/a behaviour is a learned beahaviour and not something that is done on a concious level. It's leaned in childhood or something as a response to aggressive or controlling parents.
It may help you a bit to know that maybe he's not this way to spite you, because he hates you - he has evolved to be this way over years and it has nothing to do with you.

Most people have behaved or will behave in a passive aggressive way in a certain situation, but the problem isn't p/a behaviour but a p/a personality which your dh seems to be.

Can you guess that I live with someone like this!
And it is hard, it is demoralising and it does make you feel like your crazy - but that's only before you understand the reason he reacts in this way.

I hav eto live with someone who is never ever there for me when I need emotional support, when I speak I get ignored, if I ask fro something it never gets done ect ect ect.
It's just awful to live this way and unless he agrees to get therapy or councilling of some sort I would advise you to leave. To carry on living in that environment with small children can break you.

But if that's not the case, then you'll have to change your responses to hsi behaviour. I totally understand that you get upset by something he has done (or not done) and then in turn he shouldn't get annoyed by your reaction to it - but when this happens or he displays a behaviour you don't like then you need to call him on it. Tell him very calmly that the response is rude, cold, unnecessary.

Although I like to think that these behaviours aren't deliberate, I not actually sure! So I don't give him the response I think he's hoping for iyswim. I don't get upset when he ignores me when I speak I carry on talking louder. Or I say 'you doing it on purpose, you're behaving like a dick, get over yourself'.

It has got a bit better, but tbh without therapy I don't see how it can change totally, I'm not in a position to leave so I have to cope with it as best I can.

I refuse to let him make me feel low or depressed in anyway. I know that when he behaves like this it's not normal and it's not my fault. I'm not saying that all his behaviour is strange or bad, and sometimes we have something that resembles a good relationship! And sometimes my behaviour is the issue, so I can't say that everything is all him all of the time.

I'm not surprised that he acts in this way as he had a terrible childhood, and we have done a lot of talking over the years adn he does try, but I think that 'normal' behaviour is forced and he can't help going back to how he really is.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense I've not got time to think properly at the moment!

With the ignoring, I would be ignored when asking what he wanted to do. Fine by me. I'll do what I want to do and he can lump it. People who don't speak up don't get a say.

ok I'm going to take a leap of faith here and post my experience of a seemingly 'cold, expressionless, cruel' man - my DH.

So, we've been together 7 years and married 5, we have 4yo DT's and one on the way. Thats the basic history. Since day one, DH has been a very, erm, hard man to live with, so it wasn't that he changed after some sort of event in our relationship - I decided that regardless, he was the man I wanted to marry, and so I did.

Shortly after getting married we conceived the twins and were blissfully awaiting their arrival (ha, how time fades the memories!)....they decided to make an appearance 11 weeks early, thus spending 8 weeks in special care...this was 8 weeks of emotional strain for both of us, during which time, one of the boys gave up on life twice but was forced back again (thank god and he's still here!)....we dealt with it as best we could, me in tears, DH being 'strong' and brick wall like....

They came home, and PND hit me like a tonne of bricks, combined with PTSD as well, I was a mess. Struggled on, DH got more and more distant, just when I needed him more than ever, the call of the pub, or his 'friends' in need of his help every weekend, seemed greater than my silent pleading eyes saying, "please stay with us, just this once, please". I spent days/weeks/months in turmoil, arguing like you say, being shut off with a "oh pull yourself together" comment everytime I tried to say I needed help.....when the boys hit 18 months, I took myself to the docs as, although I realised DH's behaviour was the biggest cause of my low mood and depression, i figured if i could talk about ME to someone, and get MY head sorted so that I could see clearly, not through the fog of exhaustion and depression,I would be able to work out what to do next.

I was put on AD's....they took a few weeks to kick in and when they did, I felt a bit numb (anyone who has experience of AD's should be able to relate), I felt like I was watching my life play out like a film, instead of being in the leading role.....I also had some councelling along side the pills (CBT councelling, not the 'did your mother abuse you' type councelling)....after a few months the mist literally cleared - I was happy, relaxed, at ease (man the drugs were good!), but most of all, what DH did or said didn't hurt me anymore, it just pi$$ed me off instead. I was able to blank him more, be me without worrying about what mood he would come home from work in that sort of thing - and bizarre as it may sound - MY mood/behaviour rubbed off on him, he started to relax himself. However, just before the boys hit 2, we had a huge row about something - can't for the life of me remember what, but I slept in the spare room, for 3 nights. At the start of the 3rd night I sat him down, in my new calm chemically enhanced state (!) and said we need to sort this, etc etc, he did his cold fish impression again....so I gave him his ultimatum (AD's boosted my confidence as well, as a bizarre side effect) - he either started to treat me like a human being - you know, someone who thinks, breathes, feels, cries, smiles etc, or me and the boys are leaving...yeah yeah he said, you can't cope without me.....

Next morning, I wasn't there when he woke up. I had taken me and the boys to his mums (so not a huge dramatic leave in the middle of the night thing, he knew where i was, eventually after many abusive phone calls to his mum). I stayed there for 4 days. We spoke on the phone and on instant messenger - I told him, I had reached my limit, where he thought I didn't have one. His treatment of me was abusive and as the boys got older it would affect them also seeing mummy constantly crying and feeling worthless. He listened mostly, put in some comments of his own - he did make some good points about my behaviour too which I took on board - as others have said, there are two of us in this relationship, we both have a responsibilty to make things work.

Anyway, I returned and once the boys were in bed that night we met in the lounge like a honeymoon couple who haven't seen each other in months! He was soooo sorry, 100% thought I wasn't coming back (so I had been convincing! I had every intention of properly leaving him if he didn't make the changes needed - so maybe thats what he saw).

That was two years ago now - i was on the AD's for a further year after i 'left' him - carried on with CBT, which DH insisted on talking through with me after each session (i went alone, but discussed the outcome with him each time) and I weaned off the pills after a chat with my doctor. My confidence has remained, because my new relaxed behaviour has meant a new relaxed husband and hence very little negative emotions to trigger the emotional tearful outbursts in me. He still has the usual man sulks over stuff, he is still possesive of his Dishwasher and he still cooks all the meals in the house....but none of that makes me feel worthless - I laff at his anality regarding the dishwasher - I take the pee out of myself for being unable to cook - then I revel in being waited on hand and foot every evening after work! Earlier this year, we decided and succeeded in conceiving baby 3, which was NEVER on the cards earlier on, as I just couldn't put myself through another year or so of MR "you're the mummy, thats your job" behaviour. He's now 50/50 all the way (actually more like 30/70 in my favour now I'm pregs!)

I love him with all my heart and I guess i just wanted to tell my story to show that through the fog of depression someones behaviour can seem 1 million times worse than it is - with the help of pills, doctors and councellors I found the real, undepressed me and showed DH how small changes in how he is can make BIG changes in how I am.....so we have found our own happy medium. He is still known as the 'miserable sod', but he's my miserable sod and he looks after me and our kids brilliantly.....

What a great stoey Neeerly3, I'm glad that you've found happiness and you and your dh have come through the other side.

I really would second that you have to change your behaviour, in order for someone like this to even begin to try to change his own.
This may not be your experience Neeerly3, but I think that they might want an upset reaction, they may want you hurt adn bewildered so behaving this way just adds fuel to the fire. You are giving them what they need when they behave like this and so they will continue with the behaviour.

Apart from anything you cannot live feeling this way, it's just to draining and damaging. And why should you let someone else make you feel that way.

See it for what it is and re act accordingly, if you notice unreasonable behaviour speak up in a rational way about what it is you find offensive. No tears, no tantrums say how you feel confidently.

But I agree that you may not be able to do this, or see it differently if you may be depressed in any way.
Please see you doctor, they may be able to help.

i totally agree I had to change my behaviour before he changed his - it may not seem fair, that you have to make the initial effort - but at the end of the day it solved a problem and it helped me find the real me who I think had been hiding for sometime (i also found out there is a history of depression in my family too).

My DH had been used to YEARS of stamping feet and getting his own way without any proper emotional input from himself dating back to his childhood, and his parents just gave in - everytime. He tried it with me as that was the way he was used to behaving, he got away with it for a while, and a vsicious circle began, he would stamp, I would cry, he would win, the crying would annoy him, he would sulk, I would cry some more, and so on and so forth - nowhere in his history as a human being had that cycle been broken and it wasn't about to this time, if I didn't do something about it. No one had shown him the impact of his behaviour - in a way he had been shielded from himself "thats just the way he is....." It wasn't until it impacted on something that he REALLY cared about that he sat up and took notice.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do, we are here to listen if u need us.....