end of my tether

[changedname]

I've changed my name for this for obvious (I think) reasons.

I have a young dd but work part time from home. DH also works from home. Up till now I've done pretty much all of the childcare, although dh pays for a childminder to come 3-4 mornings a week. I also cook and he gives me some money towards food. However I pay half the rent and half all of the bills.

I don't think this is fair. But when i bring up the subject he always seems to have some reason as to why he has to do x y and z (currently he has to work loads as we're a bit low on income. But so do I). I've even had to cut back on the childminder's hours, so I find I am working through my only break (dd's nap). I feel like I am a (nearly) full-time housewife, yet I still have to work to pay the bills.

But I can't think of a way of explaining this without causing a row. As it goes, now is a particularly bad time for it, but like I say, now is particularly bad for me as I've been working so much (getting up before dd to get work done etc.) Can anyone think of a way of broaching this subject? Or should I just wait until a week when things are patently unfair (when he's not working so much)? I don't know what to do.

Umm I've read this a couple of times but am a bit confused as to the exact problem. I mean are you annoyed he is not doing enough housework/childcare - or are you annoyed he is not 'contributing' enough money. The thing is, on reading this I can't get over the way you talk about what your dh gives you, and what you pay for. If you're married shouldn't the money be both of yours and all bills should just be paid from income. Why is he 'giving' you money for food?

I don't mean to upset you, I know we all do things slightly differently but your post comes over as if he is in control of all the money, while you work AND do the housework.

This sounds rather one sided!

the thorny topic of joint vs seperate finances...this should be an interesting thread if it gets going!
Your situation sounds, to me, very unfair - because I can't imagine trying to organise finances for a family in this way. IMO, when one partner has a substantial drop in income because they are looking after the children, it becomes a nonsense to think about 'his money' and 'her money' in the same way as you might have done before having children. Talk of dh paying for childcare or giving you food money seems to miss the point for me - surely your whole family income needs to be considered together, and you both need to agree how much should be spent on household bills, childcare, etc and how much on your own spending.

FWIW, dh and I have been living together for about 10 years, over which time our finances have gradually become more and more merged. I don't consider any distinction between my earnings and his. We plan how much goes into a (joint) household account, and how much into savings. We each have the same amount going monthly into our own personal accounts which we can spend just as we wish (this now makes up quite a small proportion of our income - there's not much left over for personal spending any more!!). We had pretty much arrived at this point before ds was born, so when we (both) took a drop in salary and also had to pay out nursery fees, there wasn't any question about who was paying for what.

I don't really know how to advise except that it seems you need to try and talk to each other more about this - though I appreciate that thsi is an area where it can be hard to get to the bottom of each other's feelings and emotions can run high.

Lil - it is rather one sided, that's the problem.

As it goes we're not married but I hate using the word partner (even in initial form!)

I'm not sure what I want. I guess either more of a share of the money (so I can work to spend something on myself - all my spare money goes on occassional visits to my family and sometimes a book), or him doing more.

Like I say though to be fair, he is working a lot at the moment and he will pay for the car to be repaired. I on the other hand am quite prepared to live without a car for a while rather than kill ourselves to get the thing fixed.

I think fundamentally the problem is priorities. He thinks it is quite reasonable to work so hard he has no energy for anything else - I do not (whatever the financial situation). This is why I find it so hard to explain it to him.

I think there's a certain breed of men (and yes I've got one too) who throw "equality" at you as an excuse for insisting that a woman should pay half of everything, even if your incomes aren't the same, but forget all about it when it comes to doing half the work

elliott - our posts crossed.

A joint account would solve a lot, but a) I don't think he'd like it and b) we can't have one anyway due to our different statuses here (not going to expand on that, but we can't have one)

Since dp and I met our finances have been joint. I earn more than double what he earns. There is NEVER a situation where it's 'my' money or 'his' money. I don't see the benefit of it and I think it would just coz friction. Everything we spend and all of our bills come out of one acccount. Due to his bad credit rating he can't get a joint account so everything goes into and comes out of my account. If one of us is skint then we both are.

Changedname - I've got to agree with the rest of the responses. It sounds very unfair on you. What if one month you couldn't afford to pay half the bills???? Would he throw you out? Or ban you from using the phone/Electric etc. I just don't understand how that works?

changedname, I can see you have a practical problem with a joint account- but I think the more fundamental issue is in 'thinking joint' - mum2toby is in the same boat but a different way of solving it.
As I said, the 'jointness' of our money has evolved - our first arrangement when we moved in together involved writing down all the agreed 'joint' expenditure we'd made, then every month or so adding it up, dividing it by two and working out who owed who what. So its possible to think of a fairer system that doesn't depend on having a joint account. (though of course this was in the days when we didn't have ds and we more or less thought of ourselves as financially independent from each other, with similar earnings - but you could tailor such a system so that you each contributed in proportion to your incomes).
I think its about trust and mutual understanding, and I think it does take time. DH and I have had endless discussions, occasionally heated, and we are fundamentally reasonably compatible in relation to our attitude to money. If you're coming from very different viewpoints and values, it will be harder work!

What a thorny topie. We've had to rethink everything since DH stopped working, but previously we had a joint account for household bills which we contributed to in ratio to our income. e.g I earnt about two thirds of dh's income, so I contributed two thirds of the amount he did.

Now that I'm the sole provider, I obviously contribute all to the joint account. However, I'm also a firm believer in having your own money to do with as you feel like. How much fun is it getting presents from you beloved if you know exactly how much they cost? Plus I feel you should be able to go to the pub/buy clothes without any feelings of guilt. Currently all the money dh earns from his occasional shifts is his own. If that runs out we'll either liberate some money from a savings account or I'll transfer some of mine over. Either way it would be a largeish sum, so he's not constantly asking me for cash, which could become a power issue.

Whether or not you are married, the fact that you live together and have a child makes you an economic unit. It strikes me that he is using money to control you. Believe me, I've been there before with a previous partner, this sort of behaviour can get very nasty if you don't nip it in the bud now.

changedname, I can totally simpathise, my partner and I also have separate finances. We spilt everything 50/50 even though he earns 3 times more than me. He does pay for big things like holidays, things for the house etc, but don't I know about it! I'm afraid I don't have a solution just wanted you to know its not just you.

DH and I have never paid 50:50. I suppose because when we met I earned at least twice what he did, then he had no income for a year, and then he got a job where he earned at least twice what I did. Then his money went up and up to the point where I decided it was time for me to change my life as my job was crap, my hours long and the financial reward not worth it!

So I went to having no income, then temped when he was out of work again, then fell pregnant. Followed him round the world, temped again when he was out of work. I suppose it's because we've supported each other financially that I don't feel there's any his and hers money.

OTOH, I do sometimes wish I had an incoem of my own so I could buy him a present out of 'my' money. It seems silly to buy him something with money he's earned, so I guess I do have a his and hers problem!

Certainly is not just you. After I had my ds 2 years ago, I went back to work part-time. I already earned less than my dp before taking the 2/5 cut in salary. Up till that stage our finances were totally separate, and as I was living and working in a different city until I went on maternity leave, it hadn't been a problem.

DP was not happy about me doing 3 days a week - he wanted 4, but I won that argument. Then we started wrangling about who paid for what, and eventually agreed to set up a joint account into which we'd each pay an amount each month, leaving each of us some money in our own account. Trouble was we couldn't agree how much. It took 7/8 months of arguing to come to some sort of agreement, but the trouble now is that the amount going in doesn't cover our expenses.

As I have very little left to contribute from my salary, my dp has to keep topping the account up, which gets us to the right end position, but causes untold moaning and whingeing. Meanwhile, I can afford to spend very little on myself and feel resentful every time dp comes home with a new gadget, item of clothing for himself, etc.

And he queries everything I spend from the joint account - clothes for our ds, expensive non-gel biodegradable disposable nappies, etc.

I'm now pregnant with number 2, and would love to stop working but don't think he'll support that idea, sadly.

I once plucked up the courage to ask if he'd feel differently about sharing everything if we were married and he said yes. How sad is that?

This is a thorny issue Changedname, you're not alone. We've had various discussions about this (I have a dp too, not a dh) as I used to feel cross that I was contributing more financially, although my income was slightly higher at the time. I changed my mind when a friend pointed out that we should view ourselves as a joint economic unit, so I agree with whoever said that above. It didn't go down well though when he didn't contribute to something quite expensive a while back and then came home with a Playstation game! That's not on in my view and I was cross but still, we're past that now.

Your case does sound unfair since you're working and yet you're still doing all the childcare and cooking (what about cleaning and shopping, who does that?) while he works and gets time to himself, if I've understood your situation correctly. Would it help if you worked out all joint costs and income and then looked at what would be fair in proportion to your incomes? I agree with lil about the 'giving' you money part too, he's not doing you a favour by paying for food! There was a discussion a while back on money power and SAHMs, I know it's not quite the same subject but I'll see if I can find it for you, there might have been some useful advice there.

OK I can't be bothered to keep changing my name backwards and forwards now and you've all made me feel better about what'll happen if doh (darling other half??) reads this.

I probably haven't been entirely fair to him as he does work hard and in general the cleaning works out as he does the gardening and some cleaning. But he doesn't appreciate that childcare is work and that paying a childminder for 3-4 mornings a week is not half! Also the shopping is done either by me alone or both of us - never him. And WWW - you hit the nail on the head with the playstation game bit. He spends about 10% of his income on toys. I spend maybe 5% or less of my much smaller income on things for me. He's now in a huff because I am spending £150 on going to visit my family with dd next month when we have lots of bills. That isn't what he's spent on toys this year (never mind last year).

I may broach the subject again on a "proportion of income" basis - that'd be fairer

lucy123, nope, paying for 3/4 mornings a week is not half the childcare! Perhaps you could suggest that you pay for the other 'half' i.e 3/4 afternoons a week Then he might have to think about what's left!

Here's the Money, power and SAHM thread. I'm sure there was some good stuff here.

I really have no idea what either of us spends on what, we just pay for bills as they occur until both our accounts are empy

why on earth do women put up with the crap men give them on the inequality of housework/ childcare/ money etc. I can't get over the fact that there are husbands/partners/fathers out there that think in terms of mine and yours. Surely once children come on the scene then that just doesn't make sense.

Women put your foot down, take control, tell 'em to get stuffed!!!

lucy123 - really sorry for the situation you are in, but according to all the 'research' on relationships, money is one of the main causes of disagreement so you are certainly not alone & I think it would be very difficult to change things after you've had a child if he has a fundamental different point of view to you.

I have to say that despite serious problems in our marriage which I have referred to on other threads, we have never had issues over money. The day we got married we just had one joint account,initially we earned similar levels of income now I am a SAHM but I have no problems at all about spending 'our' money, including his presents - in fact if he wants to check if his salary has gone into the account he will say 'have WE been paid yet' & I also have full private health & life insurance etc - sorry, this doesn't help you I know, it must be a very difficult situation.

DH and I have always pooled our resorces, ever since we first met.
I've always earned more than DH, but never worried about him spending "my" money as we have simular veiws on spending (we are both very tight).
When I had our DS's, he viewed me giving up 2 days work, as me saving us the cost of 2 days child care for 2 children (I was full time at first, bill was rediculous). I also viewed it the same way when, 2 years later he gave up a day, to look after our DS's.
We will soon be in the position where, the DS's are in full time school and both could up our hours. However, I don't really want to, I want some time for myself. DH has put no preasure on me to work more, as he does not want to up his hours either. We'll be better off anyway from not paying for 2 days childcare X2.
I see the whole situation as a case of mutual respect, trust, wanting your partner to be happy and not asking of them, something you don't want to do yourself.

Lil, you said exactly what I think. The situation is appalling. You can't have my this and my the other once children come along, unless you are prepared to split the childcare and housework right down the middle, which is likely to happen in a pigs eye, more's the pity. men these days seem to have everything and give nothing. Rant over.
lucy123, I'm sorry you're in this situation. I can't tell you what I think you should say to your DH because it wouldn't be polite.
hugs to you instead.

jac24, perfectly put. I intend to save this thread to show to my DH next time he cuts up rough.
Thanks.
FWIW, we pool money. If one of us is skint, the other just puts more in, but all of it is seen as joint money.

I think you need to sit down and discuss this all issue together. It really sounds as though your DH is putting less value on your contribution to the household than his own - obviously it should be considered as equal.

DH and I have had a joint current account since we were first married. We agree savings etc and direct debibt most bills - after that we just each month until it is gone. I spend a hell of a lot more than DH because I buy the groceries, have to put petrol in my car (his company does his), buy presents for both families, buy DS's things etc but I would guess that we were about equal on personal expenditure. Until my maternity leave I always earned more than DH. Since I now work 3 days a week, DH obviously earns more and because his career is progressing and mine (part-time) isn't he will soon be earning more proportionately. But I still see the money very much as OURS. The only other thing we could do would be to pay a personal allowance out to a separate account each as some have mentioned but I would not be sure what to cover in each account and our current system works for us.

Really think about what you want Lucy123 and then try to discuss it objectively. Not easy. In fact maybe do some calculations beforehand. I think your DH is being controlling in keeping you short of money.

not specific to changedname but just to give the other view.
Me and my dp met in our late thirties by which time I had worked for years and had bought my house. He had not been too successful job wise. To be totally frank he is not lazy but certainly not ambitious and finds it hard to apply himself long enough to get a decent qualification.
We now have two kids and I am the main earner while childcare is shared about evenly.
All our finances are joint - one account, spend whatever and when it is gone it is gone. He spends much more than I do on things for himself like books and CDs . The only reason it does not annoy me too much is we are quite well off.
If we ever moved house ( selling the one I currently own outright) we would buy another and I forsee rows as he would want it to be in joint names but I just can't come to terms with that idea.
Now presumeably some of you think I am being unreasonable because you would find this unnacceptable in a man.

No, I don't think so, otherview. The reason we would find it unacceptable in a man is because the woman would probably be doing the bulk of the childcare and running the house, which I presume is not the case in your set-up (I mean your partner is not doing the bulk of those things).

Otherview - it would suggest to me that you have doubts about whether this relationship will last for ever, and are not ready to commit yourself to your dp in a "what's mine is yours" way as you would if you were to get married. That's what gets me about my relationship with my dp (don't know if you've read my earlier post)- I expect us to behave as if we're married whereas he doesn't want to. How can I feel anything other than insecure?

Do you resent the fact that he is unambitious?

otherview, I can in fact see a number of different circumstances in which finances might be best kept separate, at least in part, within a family. For example if either partner is irresponsible or finds it hard to be disciplined with money, it may be best for the family if they can't access money which is needed for food, bills etc. My brother is like this and I don't think he should ever be let loose on someone else's earnings!! And I also believe that both partners should have their own pensions, and some money they can spend entirely as they wish (preferably on gifts for their partner...)