end of my tether

[changedname]

I've changed my name for this for obvious (I think) reasons.

I have a young dd but work part time from home. DH also works from home. Up till now I've done pretty much all of the childcare, although dh pays for a childminder to come 3-4 mornings a week. I also cook and he gives me some money towards food. However I pay half the rent and half all of the bills.

I don't think this is fair. But when i bring up the subject he always seems to have some reason as to why he has to do x y and z (currently he has to work loads as we're a bit low on income. But so do I). I've even had to cut back on the childminder's hours, so I find I am working through my only break (dd's nap). I feel like I am a (nearly) full-time housewife, yet I still have to work to pay the bills.

But I can't think of a way of explaining this without causing a row. As it goes, now is a particularly bad time for it, but like I say, now is particularly bad for me as I've been working so much (getting up before dd to get work done etc.) Can anyone think of a way of broaching this subject? Or should I just wait until a week when things are patently unfair (when he's not working so much)? I don't know what to do.

I agree with NQWW, Otherview - it sounds as if you don't think you are destined to stay together. You can buy a house in 'proportional shares' or some such phrase. Ie you take out the proportion you put in if you split - ie you own 80% and he owns 20% - or whatever division you both consider fair given that you have put in the vast bulk of the cash. I suppose it depends if you are going to have a mortgage on the new property. If you are and he will contribute I do think it would be unfair if he didn't get some stake in his own home. I can see your point, and would probably feel just the same way if I owned a home outright and didn't want to put it at risk. I can also understand his anxiety. The longer he stays with you but doesn't own his own home, the more vulnerable he will be in the face of rising property values if you split. Also you can just order him out and he will be homeless. It's a difficult situation, particularly as he is the father of your children.

You have all surmised our situation very accurately and I am impressed you did so with little info from me.
Droile my partner did all the weekday childcare till very recently ( I was full time) . Now we both work part time. Household chores are split quite evenly.

NQWWW you are absolutely right I am not prepared to commit to marriage. Yes I know this may sound irresponsible in view of the fact we have children. Like you in your situation my partner feels very insecure but I just can't make that final commitment as basically we do not have that great a relationship.(this of course may not be true for you ) It is possible if we got married ( which he wants) some of the issues between us might get cleared up but what a risk to me !
I do feel slightly aggrieved at his lack of ambition mostly because he is enjoying the fruits of my ambition and does not seem to really appreciate them/me.We have a lovely home with no mortgage ( I worked seven days a week to pay it off) and he has never had a mortgage in his life so does not realise what it is like.
For his entire adult life he has been a few hundred or thousand pounds in debt. (prior to meeting me that is , as I paid off his debts)
In case anyone thinks I have taken up with a total loser he is a good man and a great dad.

Aloha you see the situation very well and I do appreciate how my refusal to get married or have our next house in joint names makes him insecure (he blames all his huffs and bad behaviour on his insecurity)

Elliot, I like the bit about gifts for your partner. He bought me nothing for valentines, which on one level I don't mind as it is just a commercial thing anyway but he did come home with some new toys for himself that day.

changed name I did not mean to take over your discussion but I hoped my experience might help you see where your husband is coming from, but perhaps there isn't too much similarity really.
Have you broached the subject again?

sorry it's me again.
Still thinking about this, and here is a summary of our situation.
We met in our late thirties, fell in love, he moved in. I had a great job and was quitesecure financially. He had a cr@p job and was in debt. None of this mattered at all at the time because despite all that stuff about the house I am not materialistic.
We talked about getting married and planned to one day. As I was getting on in years we had our two kids and in the way of relationships reality started to get in the way of romance! Gradually I went right off the idea of getting amarried as it seemed he had everything to gain and I had everything to lose. ( I am convinced this is why so many men are marriage shy)
This not surprisingly makes him feel insecure.
SO he acts quite badly from time to time.SO I love him less.
He blames this (his bad behaviour)on him being insecure and having no "rights" because I won't marry him.
SO this is supposed to make me want to marry him???? ( "I'll behave better if only you would marry me" )

Tricky isn't it?

Otherview

That's tough - I don't think that if you got married that he would be automatically entitled to half of your assets. The courts look at issues like each parties contribution to the assets ie: the fact the house was yours means that you would probably get to keep it. I'm not a family lawyer but you could easily do some research on that on the web.

If you became "joint tenants" on the mortgage then he would have the right to half the house.

There are a couple of issues that you need to deal with however. If you died, he would have no rights to your estate - your children would inherit your estate. Obviously they are to young so a trustee would be appointed to manage it for them. Your DP even though he is their father and no doubt his name is on the birth certificate does not have what is called parental responsibility and would have to apply to court to get it. Again, the trusteeship to your childrens estate would not automatically pass to him. You may or may not wish your DP to be your childrens guardian, but if you have concerns about your DP's ability to manage money this issue that you should consider. Would your parents or a sibling be better placed. The best way to sort out what happens to your estate and the kids is to make a will. As there are obviously a lot of issues here I would strongly suggest that you go and see a solicitor - if nothing else they will ask questions that will make you really consider your position.

We have a similar situation though not as extreme as yours. My DP when I met him had had a checkered work history and had run up some debts. He brought no equity into the relationship and n I paid off his debts. However, when we had DS we bought a house together. I did consider ringfencing the equity that I had from the sale of my flat but decided against it. My DP, unlike yours had got his act together and now earns good money. As such I felt able to trust him enough to enter into an equal financial partnership.

I can certainly understand your unwillingness to commit to marriage. You have two children and do not need to support another one. He no doubt feels insecure because he has no obvious financial input into the relationship - not good for ones self esteem and no doubt doubly hard if you are a man.

Is there any way that he can take charge of his own finances and contribute something to the relationship - buy an investment property or maybe invest in some shares. That could come out of his salary.

I think its unlikely that he will change ( unless of course he wants to change things ) - he appears to want to be looked after. Being married will just make him more secure in this behaviour. As such I would look for some change in his behaviour before you even think about marriage.

Kaz33

Otherview - I can sympathise, as I once lived with a guy who was very happily unemployed. Absolutely lovely bloke - really laid-back and loving. He played the guitar and spent most days jamming with his friends. He did make some money (by selling stuff to smoke, and I'm not talking Marlboro Lights), but was never going to get a "proper" job. I got more and more unhappy with the situation as I got up every day to go to my office job, and started to put pressure on him to fnid a job. He nearly became a bus driver, and that's when I knew we had to split up! No offence to any bus drivers out there, but the job so wasn't him and I knew he'd be miserable. Sure enough since we split up I've continued working and he's gone off and done lots of travelling and things which have made him happy.

I, on the rebound, started my current relationship with my totally un-laid-back city man.

Your phrase: "I went right off the idea of getting married as it seemed he had everything to gain and I had everything to lose" is very telling. Surely in every marriage this is true for one of the parties involved? Do you think you'd feel differently if you were the bloke?

BTW, what "rights" is he talking about? Is he worried that you'll take the children away from him? You are certainly holding all the cards.

Otherview

I do actually sympathise with your situation. I think really you are being fair (though I can see why he would feel insecure). If I were in your dp's position - doing half the childcare and housework and earning a lot less, I would be perfectly happy that you owned the house.

My situation is that I earn less and do all of the childcare (well, nearly all) and this is what bugs me. If he did half I wouldn't mind at all as he is more materialistic than me anyway.

Haven't spoken to him yet - am waiting for this month's crisis to be over, but thanks everyone - I think I'll go for the proportion of income / offering to pay for my half of the childcare ideas.

changedname, otherview

i am reading alvin hall's "money for life" atm. there is a chapter on financial issues in relationships. haven't finished it yet, but based on what i have read so far, i would recommend it to you both. he mentions the "proportion of income" approach, together with with other ways of thinking about this thorny issue.

good luck to you both!

Can you read it without hearing that totally annoying voice in your head the whole time?

yes, as i've only seen one of his programs and that was ages ago!

I love Alvin Hall - I think he's brilliant even if what he says is so true it really frightens me because I'm a total ostrich about money. Some years ago I lived with a boyfriend who owned the (beautiful) flat we lived in. I didn't contribute a penny to bills or the mortgage, as my reasoning was that I wasn't going to buy his house for him. I did buy food but not all of it. However, we didn't have children, and if we did I would have been terrified that I could be made homeless just like that. And of course, when we split, he'd made a ton of profit on his flat due to property rises and I could barely afford a tiny boxroom. When I met dh he was embroiled in a dispute over property with his evil ex, but we bought her out eventually and now are married and joint owners and it does make me feel secure. HOWEVER - I would never marry someone or make myself financially insecure to improve our relationship. I would probably try counselling though, if children were involved. I like the idea of his buying an investment property or having a savings account (don't think this is the right time to invest in property, not in London anyway). I feel for your both, I'm afraid and can all too easily imagine being in both your shoes. What a tricky problem.

Thought I'd join in, wish I'd had some hindsight when I thought it such a good idea to keep our finances separate. DH is tight but has an expensive hobby, so i didn't want to inadvertantly finance that. But now I'm part-time & all my salary goes on food & clothes ("don't keep buying her new clothes" one day "her trousers are too tight" the next...) & he has only recently let me stop paying him rent, took £50 a month throughout my maternity leave.
I just feel as if I have nothing, the house & cars are his & his pictures are on the walls, just stupid little things that we don't really row about but eat away at me a bit.
So it's almost more of a psychological problem than a real one, but I don't see a way of changing things, just will add to my simmering bitterness & surface occasionally to perplex him.

Eowyn, what's this with the 'rent'? I don't understand. You are married and live together but pay rent? I truly don't get it. Anyway, if you are married nothing is 'his' anymore. If you split up everything gets divided up by the courts. It doesn't matter whose name is on the deeds etc. That's sort of what marriage means. Maybe your dh needs reminding of this. I think you need to sort out your joint finances. Why are you responsible for your dd's clothes anyway - she's his too! Also, why not put a couple of pictures on the walls one day. It's your home and it should feel like yours IMO.

Echo everything aloha has just said. I'm appalled, eowyn, what on earth is going on?

We do the 'proportional income' thing where dh puts about 2/3 of his take home into the joint account but I put in half of that. This wokrs for us as we tend to have the same amount to spend each month. We never row about money or even bother about it that much I spend and think later!! but I've just put £200k of my inheritance into our new house and it has occurred to me that if we split up half would go immediately to dh - I think that's how men feel.
It also gets a bit more compicated since I run a small business and the dividends tend to go on big things like the house/garden etc. I remember my mum having to ask for the housekeeping each week and my dad counting it out infront of her - I never wanted that so I think thats why I've kept working at least to some extent.

It all seems so silly it's hard to explain. Just wasn't so much of a problem when I was earning more as I had money left to do what I wanted with each month anyway. He didn't have a relationship before me, lived on his own for years & initially seemed worried that if I bought anything I would also leave with it. The thing is, he is very kind & hates confrontation so I could possibly do as I wish, but he gets wierd about things like putting nails in the wall, so I put up posters upstairs to assert myself.
I just feel that we come from such different directions that we can't understand each others positions at all, it isn't as if it is a problem day to day, just one of the many things that isn't quite right about our relationship. I earn just enough that I don't have to ask for money, I would hate to have to as would feel so accountable.
Sorry I am unable to make more sense, it seems petty when I write it down, it is just hard to discuss with him calmly & objectively.

oh,and..things like buying dd's clothes, if he is with us & agrees she needs something, he probably will pay, just that he isn't usually there.

sobernow thanks for yur last message. You are helping me to see my partner's perspective.
Isn't it a bit sad that as we get older we look at marriage in terms of "what if we split up?".
It saddens me and I'm one who is doing it!

On the subject of inheritances, I'm an only one so I stand to inherit substantially, of which DH will be entitled to a half share. It doesn't bother me, it's called marriage and I signed up for it. It works the other way round too.