Would I be a total bitch to insist on this from my DH?

[wantanotherbaby]

Either we have another baby or he gets a vasectomy?

Some background...

When we got married we agreed we wanted two children, I wanted three but I agreed to two. Fast forward a couple of years and we have ds who's brilliant, sleeps well, feeds well, an absolute charmer. There were early wobbles but nothing serious, just first time parenthood nerves.

Now he says he doesn't want another one. He has a series of reasons why...

1. we can't afford it. Money's tight but not that tight, we have some slack in our budget, and my mum and dad have said they will help us buy a house next year (we currently live in a 2 bed flat I bought 12 years ago so I've got quite a bit of equity)

2. He found it too stressful. Not once did he say when ds was little that it was stressing him out. I know he used to find it tough when ds cried, but as he hardly ever did, that was pretty rare. As I bf dh never got up for night feeds, he didn't even wake up usually.

3. His family caused him a lot of hassle - they were a pain in the butt, giving him grief about the name we chose for ds and the fact that they live so far away (they chose to live in a different country to their son, do they expect us to move 2000 miles to live near them?)

4. He was really shocked at how long new born babies do nothing. I think he was expecting to be playing football in the park with ds from about 2 months. I've pointed out that this time that won't be a problem as we'll have ds, who will be nearly 2 and really up for playing football in the park!

This issue is really starting to drive a wedge between us. I pretend nothing is wrong, but I'm starting to resent him so much. The other day he was watching ds sleep and he said "isn't he cute, he's such a sweetie" and I wanted to yell "why can't we have another one then?" but I didn't.

I did think about getting pg without his consent, I've told him I'm not following my cycle (well, that's almost true) and I won't go on the pill again. But I'd rather he was happy to have another child., plus I'm sure he'll know if I'm mysteriously up for it every 28 days. Even he's not that clueless about menstrual cycles!

If want to give him an ultimatum, either we have another baby or he has a vasectomy. I want him to understand what it means to ask someone to never have another child.

Sorry this is so long and rambling, I just don't know where to turn or what to do.

Marlasinger - we are on the same page of the same book! I do agree that a 6 month wait is not the end of the world, but like you, it's something I need to know now. I don't need to be pg now, but I need to know now that there is the chance in 6 months time. Otherwise the resentment I'm feeling could kill our relationship. I think if dh said definitely never ever ever again it would be the end of us, but he feels that the stress of having another baby for him could also be the end of us. We're really stuck between a rock and a hard place.

yes sobernow. Perhaps an ultimatum is the wrong thing, but explaining to him his insistance on having no more children is the same as if I insisted he have a vasectomy. Thinking about it now it does feel a bit vengeful... if I can't have another child then neither can you. To be honest if he's that dead set against another child then a vas in concept won't be a problem for him (the op is a different matter, ds is needle phobic so theoretically unecessary op would be horrendous for him)

and fester...that's exactly the right word. It's festering in me. I don't need to have a baby right now, but I need to know right now that I can have another one... in 6 months a year, I don't care so much as knowing that I can have another one.

My mum pointed out how much easier it was for her as there was 18mths between me and sis. We were instant playmates and I cant remember EVER playing with her, we just didnt need her for that.
Whereas our gap of 3 years means that we have that exact holiday scenario! Cant wait till they can play together.

Also, on a sad note, my DH finally agreed to a 2nd because his best friend was killed on his bike a couple of years ago. He was so shocked to think the parents wouldnt have had any children at all had they stopped at one. But they had Ross's sister to comfort them. It seems a bit wrong to have 'a spare child', but there was an element of this. Ghoulish I know.

Yes, hope is all I need right now.

at your dh's friend JuneBugJen. I did think this too, but thought it too ghoulish to bring up to dh. He would just poo poo the idea as being ridiculous. My bf lost her mum recently after a long and painful fight against bone cancer and she said having her brother to turn to when things got tough was so important to her. I told dh this, it made me cry to think of ds all alone in the world once we're gone. It's so silly I know because hopefully he'll be a grown man with a wife and family of his own, but there's something different about a sibling. You have such a shared experience, sometimes they're the only person who understands where you're coming from. Because dh isn't close to his sister he just doesn't get that. He is getting better with his sister. she doesn't have any children and won't now as she's 45, so she adores our ds, and that has brought them closer.

I wouldn't bring a vasectomy into it, that is cutting off your nose to spite your face!
I would approach it from a different angle completely, as your current line of argument isn't working. I will tell you our reasoning and it might help.
I had a DS from a first marriage and he was 8 when I had a DS with DH. I was 38 the second time. We went on and had another DS because we thought of what would happen when we were older and they were teenagers.I was lucky because my DH was all for it. He has one brother 10 yrs older, the brother left home when DS was 7 and he was effectively an only DC with older parents. He used to go on holiday with them and their friends and he was bored rigid! He didn't want to it happen to our DS. DS1 went off to university when DS2 was 10 yrs so it has been great that I have two of them. Holidays aren't a problem because they have each other.
Ask your DH how he will feel in his 50's trying to entertain a teenager! Tell him it would be much easier if there were two of them! He would get more time to do his own thing.

It's weird AbbeyA because my dh never had that, he went on holidays on his own with his mum from the age of 10 and never missed having a sibling so I think he really doesn't get it. I do like the idea about what it would be like entertaining a teenager when you're in your fifties. I just hope he won't say it's easier than entertaining two teenagers.

I guess as well there are very well adjusted 'only's'.

Mt youngest sister is an only child! I know that sounds odd but she was brought up in Canada by dad and stepmum and we only saw her yearly. She is probably the most well brought up, well adjusted person I have ever met! The bond she has with her mum and our dad is amazing.

It was awful about Ross being killed. It was a strange thing to persuade DH to have a second, but perhaps your DH may uncover a reason himself in the next few years. And you are not too old to wait, yes the risks are higher for Downs etc, but many of my friends are 'older' fabulous mums of 45+.

Have just read your thread and the first thing that jumped out was the fact that your ds is only 11 months - that is no time at all for your dh to have got used to the change between being free to go to Rome for the weekend, (for example), and to being tied down with a 2 year old and a baby. It took me about 2.5 years, let alone my dh. If your dh really isn't happy but says maybe next summer and then changes his mind this would be devastating would it not?

I know the risk of Downs increases after 40 but I can't believe mother nature knows when your 40th birthday is and suddenly increases the risks over-night. I am sure it is a gradual rise, therefore waiting 6 months is not going to make that much difference.

What also worries me is that you emphasise how good your son is. What if your second child is a nightmare? My first born was "not easy". He would wake up every 2.5 hours for a feed, and did not ever sleep through until 10 months, he would cry non-stop if put down in the day, (I had to hold him on me or push him in the pram). He was a very big baby so killed my back due to the weight of carrying him around, he refused to take a dummy or bottle so everything seemed a battle. When I had my dd I couldn't believe how easy it was - an absolute doddle. I did think though if I had had her first and then my son I would have found it so much harder because I would have thought it should always be like it was with dd.

I can hear you say - thanks a lot, this is not what I need to hear. But, I just think you need to make sure your dh is ready and signed up for number 2, rather than forcing him into it. If my dh had not been fully OK with having ds I am sure we would be divorced by now, it proved a terrible strain. You might not think you are pressurising him but I am sure he knows full well what you want.

Please don't think I am trying to put you off, I lost my brother when he was 24 so fully understand what Junebugjen is saying, I don't know what my parents would be like now if my brother was their only one. At least they have grandchildren now and life carries on.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, I just don't think you can pressurise somebody into such a huge decision, I really don't think you should think of reaching 40 as the deadline. Why don't you speak to your health visitor/doctor about this and see if they can put your mind at rest about downs?

I expect that if he went on holiday on his own with his mum she was doing everything with him in mind. My DHs parents were older and they went on holiday with friends of the same age whose DCs were grown up and so it wasn't very child friendly.
It is easier with 2 teenagers. This year we had the prospect of a holiday with only our youngest and so we took his friend. They went surfing, the weather didn't matter luckily,and we had time to ourselves. Everyone was happy!

Having written it I see that taking a friend puts a huge hole in the argument! It is much better having 2 of your own. The responsibility of taking someone else's child is huge. It was a great relief to deliver him home in one piece!

Oh and so so sorry Helennn about your brother.

Message withdrawn

Helenn - thanks for your post, you do make some very good points there. Esp about mother nature not knowing your birthday so true! I blame the media for scaring me so much

I'm sorry you found things tough with your ds. I know I can't guarantee a dream child second time around. I feel so much more confident though. I realise confidence isn't much good when you haven't slept, and with a toddler and a baby you can't just nap during the day as you can when you have just one, but I've learnt so much. God if I knew 11 months ago what I know now!

I just need to know the door isn't closed.

Dior - thanks for your honesty. I did think it was a bit of an arsey thing to ask him, that's why I came on here to ask for advice first. It so helps to get a detached view of the situation, sometimes it's too easy to get wrapped up in the emotion and not stand back and see the wood for the trees.

Sorry Helenn, I'm so wrapped up in my own life, how horrible to lose your brother so young. I can't imagine how sad that must have been for you.

Hi WAB

I think you are realising that the ultimatum wouldn't be a great idea. Like everyone, I think 11mo on from DS is still very early. Sounds like DH isn't really reaping the benefits he expected from having a baby.

It must be so difficult when you both want different things, plus there is the age gap to consider.

With regards to your financial situation, wow! You guys are far better of than DH and I and we will have another baby regardless! We will manage, people do, but to have 20k in savings, equity in your flat and help from your parents to buy a house, just how much money does he want?!

Anyway, I don't really have any advice, expect just give it time, try not to mention it too much (always gets my DH's back up) and hopefully your lovely DS will convince him.

Bumper - thank you, what a lovely post! We are so fortunate, I do thank my lucky stars every day that we've got such a big safety net. Every time I feel a whinge coming on I remind myself of my good fortune. DH has got a few debts from before we married which worries him, he feels quite guilty about those I think. My attitude is we can't do anything about that and besides I didn't marry him for his money. I married him because I love him. Married people share things, I have offered to use that money to pay off his credit cards, but I think that makes him feel more guilty and probably a bit emasculated so I haven't pushed it. I think he'd feel better paying them off himself and using that money to set ourselves up in a nice house.

You're right, I have decided the ultimatum route is not the right one, thanks to the lovely ladies on here with their great advice. I think a nice relaxed chat after a nice meal and a bottle of wine when we're on holiday will hopefully set the scene for a more relaxed approach to the whole issue.

Just came back and see you're worried about being 40, so I see the urgency. I had ds from my first marriage when I met dh#2 and remember telling him he really did need to get a move on and make his mind up about whether he wanted a baby with me as I was 36 (gosh, not so old, looking back!). It took six months to get pregnant and I was 37 when she was born.

Good luck talking about it, I hope he comes round. It does sound like he's very worried about something if he cries. I think you need to get to the bottom of that tbh.

A relaxed chat sounds a great idea, and I think you're right in ditching the vasectomy ultimatum. Hope you reach a solution you are both happy with

thanks www. Yes there is a bit of urgency, but thinking a bit more rationally now I don't want to push it so much that I get my baby before 40, but also divorced before I'm 40 too. I do worry as it took over a year to conceive ds, but looking back I didn't get it right every month, we sometimes missed my ov. I'm much more confident I know how to get pg now iyswim!

I think the thing that causes dh the deepest pain is all the unresolved stuff about his dad. I know he's still deeply affected by it. His dad is rubbish really, whenever dh tries to talk about it to him his dad says it's all in the past, but what my FIL doesn't realise is that it may be in the past but the scars are still there. My FIL effectively disowned his son in favour of his new wife and son (who he's also abandoned now) and that shattered my dh's confidence.

On a daily basis he functions totally normally, you'd never think he was insecure or anything, but then something will happen... he got really drunk at his work christmas party this year. Nothing unusual about that, but he was so drunk he couldn't get home, so someone from work brought him home. The next morning he cried, saying he gets so drunk because he's so scared no one will like him. He only does it once or twice a year, but it's like that's the only time of the year when the truth comes out. I hate making him unhappy, but I want him to understand that he's a great father despite his own crappy father.

It makes me well up just thinking about how sad he is sometimes. It's not proper depression, I've seen enough of that in my family to know the signs, it's just shocks me how much someone's carelessness with their children can affect their lives for so long. I've had such a happy childhood and family, I guess I've just been sheltered from the hurt people can cause.

Philip Larkin never said a truer word...

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

Sorry WAB, my post wasn't trying to be a "look what you've got when we've got nothing" post to make you feel bad, it was meant to be a point you can make, if not to your DH, then to yourself, to put in to perspective that actually you are in a great position to have a baby financially.

I can probably guess the answer to this but have you and your DH considered a relate counsellor, not because you have marriage problems but because he obviously has some family issues that it would do you both good to understand.

I had a bit of a meltdown when I had DD and can be really insecure like your DH (though no-one but my husband would know it as he sees me melting down crying that no-one likes me) and I went to see a relate counsellor who made me see how much my childhood has affected me as an adult, not in a blaming way to my parents, but I had a very dysfunctional upbringing and I have always said I was really cool with it and it hasn't affected me. Of course it has and it makes me have unrealistic expectations of myself and then beat myself up when I don't meet them. Does that sound a bit like your DH?

Don't worry bumper, I didn't think that at all. I just wanted to say how much I realise that I'm very lucky.

I'm not sure about counselling... like most men, dh brushes those things under the carpet. 363 days a year he's a typical normal football watching, computer game playing, sports mad bloke who goes to work, comes home, loves his wife and son, Lives a normal life. He's inordinately proud of his boy, he's always showing everyone at work photos of him and he's always asking me to bring him in to the office so he can show him off. It's just the couple of times a year, maybe when he's feeling low anyway (alcohol is such a depressant that's probably the trigger) that these feelings come to the surface. I'm not sure what he'd say to counselling about his issues with his father. I might ask him when we have our chat and see what his reaction is.

As I mentioned we've had quite a lot of depression in our family. My grandfather was a rotten father and my mum and her brothers and sister suffered badly at his hand, physically (not sexually) and emotionally. My mum has had a lot of therapy to deal with it and she's mostly resolved a lot of it. There's a lot of underlying guilt but it doesn't affect her life too much. We've talked a lot about this in the past (before met dh, so not in the context of his life) and the thing that she concluded is that counselling has it's place, but sometimes dredging up past issues you can't change or resolve isn't always the right thing. That thought has always held me back from delving too much in dh's feelings about his past. I can't go back to that 10 year old boy who had all his toys and books burned by his dad's new wife, and had to move out of his lovely home and live in a flat with his mum and give him a cuddle. Neither can his dad, so will counselling help? I have no idea. I can only ask if it's something he's interested in exploring.

Unitl now I have felt the same about conselling, I didn't want to go there, why dredge it up? But I think in some cases it can be empowering and help you accept who you are and if you can understand the root causes of things you can find ways of changing how you behave if you want to. For me it just made me realise that I wasn't doing such a bad job under the circumstances

Does DH ever feel insecure about how he is as a father?