is it possible to have two very full-on careers, dc AND a functioning relationship?

[woodstock3]

something i read that the ghastly nicola horlick said, about it being totally possible to have a big job and 70 children or whatever it is she had but maybe not a happy marriage too, set me off. that and a row i had with dh who thinks both of us working in high pressure, long hours jobs isnt sustainable (oddly, it seems to be my job that is the problem, not his). im not necessarily thinking about one of us (well let's face it, me) stopping working, just about whether it will eventually end with me stepping back to a less full on job for a bit.
i realise we are living a rather crazed life at the moment and there is very little slack and that's stressful: whatever time im not working i want to spend on ds, but that leaves us almost no time for ourselves. on the other hand, i love my job.
and please this isnt yet another sahm/wohm argument...it's about the effect of work on a couple, not on children. does anyone have two v full on careers and a sickmakingly happy marriage or is it always going to be a struggle?

I wanted to post a thread like this.

We both have full-on careers but what saves us is the holidays (school - DH = researcher, me university teacher with other responsibilities too).

We currently have 2 DS (nearly 4 and 18mths) and this year has been incredibly hard.

We originally wanted 3 DC but now we feel we are at breaking point (and have been at breaking point a few times in our marriage this year) physically and mentally.

I think 3 would tip us over the edge.

We do have a cleaner 3hrs a week but there is still all the cooking, washing, ironing and every day clearing up to do.

We don't go on "luxury" holidays to compensate.

I wouldn't say we have a 'great' relationship - DH won't make time for "us" during term-time but during the holidays we recharge and see plenty of each other.

I don't think it's possible - something has to give, and in my experience and looking at my friends, it's usually the woman's career path that, shall we say, alters.

But it's also my choice. I have changed. I can't actually justify to myself working 65+ hours a week and expending all that energy time and effort on my career, when I've got a very small child at home that needs me and is more important. Plus I want another one. So, I've accepted that I'm not going to be where I thought I would be in 10 years time.
It's both galling and liberating - if that makes sense. Galling because I've busted my chops to get where I am and it's irritating to let it go, but OK because of the whole "one door closes", blah, blah, blah.

LostinOZ, I think it's easier to have the choice. But I don't think it is any less complicated or stressful to have these issues as professional working couples. Not that that stance tends to garner much sympathy, it more likely to be seen as "middle class whingeing", as one poster so charmingly put it.

If you want two full-on careers, children and a loving relationship and a fun lifestyle, it will be hard work working out how you might possibly manage to achieve this (the strategy) let alone doing it (the execution).

My partner's first marriage broke down over this issue. I entered this relationship on the basis that we would not be attempting to have two full-on careers as well as all the other stuff - we divide up the labours of life as rationally as possible to maximise both our (joint) income and our free time.

We have a fantastic lifestyle that we undoubtedly could not have if I worked the 60+ hours a week that my previous professional incarnation required. That previous professional incarnation, plus my breadwinning partner's income, could easily pay for a housekeeper and a nanny and any other services we would require to keep our household on the road. But why bother? Why do so much and incur so much stress that inevitably impacts upon one's couple relationship? I am with my partner because I enjoy his company - what would be the point if I hardly ever saw him?

How do you feel, Anna, about giving up your career, though?

I will be completely honest and say that being with small babies/children bores me rigid, (although I love my children very, very much), and they were definitely better off with my nanny who did all kinds of fun, creative and educational things with them. So going back to work was not only about financial reward, and to ensure that we maintained our desired standard of living (albeit that a huge chunk was going to said nanny) but it was also about me. To that extent it was selfish.

That said, of course going back to work brought all the pressures that the OP outlined here. Things that we have had to deal with to ensure that our relationship has stayed on track.

The other thing that really, really worried me was seeing how other friends, who didn't go back to work, often had very serious problems in their relationships, as the 'balance of power' (for want of a better description) totally undermined their marriages.

I agree with the posters who have said it is possible but is MUCH easier if you have money for a nanny and home help as well as family nearby. Before DD my career was everything, since she was born I have been lucky to do condensed hours and only have to be in the office 3 days a week but on those three days I don't see DD at all, I also travel a bit. DH works hard 5 days a week and travels a lot.

It has worked for us because we have a nanny and cleaner. We have also priotised our relationship over our friendships as something had to give. Unfortunatley we hardly ever see many of our friends (except those we work with and who have kids and therefore enjoy doing family stuff with us and DD at the weekend).

However, the truth is I have also started to care less about my career and I think that has helped. If I was still hell bent on being the best at work then I think the stress and effort would have been too much.

Running a household does take time and if you want to find time to stop and enjoy your the life you've made IMHO 2 big jobs and chidren is not really good for anyone.

I'm impressed at all those that have made it work. But as the years have moved on as a carreer woman I have downsized more and more as the craziness of the rushing around hit me. TIME as someone says is precious and I don't just mean spending it all with the kids. I mean time for everyone together and on their own.

Its exhausting doing it all - though obviously possible! I'll stick my neck out and say that my kids are also calmer and happier since I've downsized my job.

I agree with becauseImworthit about the pressure a SAH parent can put on the relationship too.

It's hard both working and it generates arguments, but I know I would be unhappy and feel resentful if I was at home full-time.

have found it really interesting reading all your replies...yes it probably is middle class whinging (which is as we all know SO much worse than working class whinging) and i know im lucky that compared to a lot of people we can throw money at the problem (have a nanny and a cleaner). tho oi you were right we do have the same set up as you and your husband ie only one day off together which aggravates the stress.
anna i was curious when you said what would be the point being with someone if you hardly saw them - before we had ds i probably worked even longer hours (anywhere up to 70 hours a week rather than currently i guess 50-60) so actually dh and i are used to not seeing each other all day (er, aren't most couples?) and we probably see more of each other now oddly because we go out a lot less - before i might quite often be out with my friends a few nights a week ditto him. now we are together in the house a lot but more often slumped knackered/resentful on the sofa or running round after ds. maybe time is not the problem in this set up so much as energy?

BecauseI'mWorthIt - I'm quite happy about the life I lead - I work (very part-time, because I don't require a regular pay check to pay the bills) in a field closely related to the one I worked in before family and I have lots of freedom to organise my life and that of my family such that we lead a relatively stress free, and agreeable, existence.

I do see myself as a SAHM - I actually think (and I know this is not a particularly popular way of thinking on MN) that if, as a mother, one works for pleasure/long-term security, and has a breadwinning partner, one is a "SAHM with a part-time job", not a WOHM. I can give up work any day I choose and my lifestyle won't suffer - so I don't have the stresses that a "real" WOHM has and I don't deserve the credit.

I didn't address all your points.

I adored spending my day with a baby - heaven. My life was never as wonderful as in the early years. I do feel quite sad as I see my daughter (now 3.10, and just about to start all-day pre-school) needing me less.

And the balance of power in my relationship has absolutely nothing to do with money/earning power. The balance of power is about overall contribution - there is so much more to a life than money.

woodstock3 - I know what you mean about very busy working lives pre-children and not spending much time together as a couple. However, I think that when you become parents you actually have far more to do in common, quite apart from just being, and that you really do need more time (not for chores or childcare) for your family life and relationship.

Sorry Anna, when I said balance of power, what I meant wasn't just about money. It was about suddenly having a complete change of focus in your life. The people I'm thinking of went from being independent people with interesting jobs to women whose lives revolved solely around their babies. Consequently, (and I'm not saying that this is right or wrong) the only thing they had to talk to their partners about was the child and what they had done that day. Rightly or wrongly this can easily be construed as boring. And I know that in both of the cases I am familiar with it created real problems.

You sound as though you have managed to achieve a very enviable solution, but I think it can be very hard to do this.

We definitely have never been in a situation where all I had to contribute to the conversation/action at home was baby talk. And I didn't have to think very consciously about that - it was just the way life was, we had a massive amount going on when my daughter was a baby and she really wasn't the focus of all our attentions (which isn't to say that she was neglected, far from it ).

I think you make a valid point though - I can quite see that if you don't have much going on in your life apart from the baby, you might get a bit overwhelmed with baby stuff. Everyone needs some adult preoccupations to concentrate their intellectual energies upon in order to be an interesting and fun person to be around - for some people, work might seem like the only avenue.

Yes, it is possible. It's too simplistic to say that a relationship won't run smoothly if you both have careers, and that it will if you don't. Many couples who split up haven't both had high flying careers. Couples split up for all sorts of reasons - growing apart, realising they've made a huge mistake etc.
It comes down to making the right choice and choosing a good partner

It's as rare as hen's teeth

I agree about friendships being the thing to go, they have been for me. For me, I feel we're managing to cope with

a) 2 full on jobs for dh and I
b) Happy children (although that's not to say they wouldn't like to see more of me)
c) A happy marriage

But something does have to give and for me it isn't old friendships (although I don't have that much time for those), it's the effort that would have to go into making new ones. That's why mn is so fantastic because I can dip in for an hour or 2 in the evening and then drop it. So I have some old friends and some mn friends and haven't really made any other new friends (actually, not quite true, one woman who is the mother of one of ds's friends I count as a friend) around here, when we moved here in 2006.

If I#d have been a sahm that would have been different I think because I'd have been going to toddler groups and I would have had to make some friends or die of boredom.

I also find v small babies quite boring and didn't want to be a sahm. Although my contract ends at end October and unless I get something else I will be forced into it for a while. It won't be hard though as both will be at school, so a v different proposition to pre schoolers and babies.

What do you mean by 'full on career'?

Dh works full time and I am a freelancer - while the children have not all in been in school (we have 3 - 7, 5 and almost 4) it's been totally manic as I've only been able to work in the limited time that the youngest has been in nursery and the rest is in the evenings and weekends. A lot of the time I'm working more than full time hours.

At times things have been very fraught - usually when I'm to my eyes in work - but dh is generally supportive of the work I have to do and he is pretty hands on with the boys so that he has, more often than not, been looking after them on his own at weekends. He also takes a lot of time off in the school holidays so I can work (and I get my mum to come and visit for a couple of days if I'm desperate!).

However, through the stress of day to day life we do have a very happy marriage still - we always, always eat together in the evening so we catch up then, even if only for an hour because I need to go back to the office to work. We email and talk on the phone in the day.

In fact, the key thing I think is to talk - we are always having in depth discussions about how things are going, how we can make them better, what we'll do in the future etc. Also about how we are feeling about things - it can get a bit 'Oprah' sometimes but I think a lot of people just don't do this and that's a problem.

What also helps us keep our sanity is fitting in friends and social stuff - I do make quite a big effort to book in time with my friends and dh does the same. I think if we didn't do this we'd go mad. We get the odd weekend away but we are very fortunate to have parents and siblings around to babysit.

I suppose money is a major factor as well - a lot of marriages are under strain because it's an issue, I would imagine, and we are lucky that for us it's generally not. When things are tighter (I'm freelance and dh very commission based so there are times where, for whatever reason, we have a month or two where our income plummets) we tend to pull together and work out a plan.

Just flicking through the thread - I agree with much of what WWW says - as a freelancer I get quieter periods where I can recharge batteries, getting to school events is never an issue and dh can usually get to them as well, throwing money at things makes life easier (no cleaner here but we do have a gardener, have paid for ironing to be done, cars valeted etc).

As I said earlier, I think we do have "two full-on careers, children and a loving relationship and a fun lifestyle". I think it can be done, although it does require a lot of organisation. But actually I'm good at organisation, so that helps.

DH and I were married for 6 years and together for over 10 years before we had children: I think that helps a lot - we are not trying to iron out problems, we know each other extremely well and we have a huge bedrock of goodwill to fallback on. We also travelled a lot and lived /worked abroad for 3 years before we had children which again I think has got that out of our system.

I think there are many different "models" of relationships. DH and I actually have a very easy one in that we are exactly the same age, went to the same "type" of university at the same time and do roughly the same job. I think he would agree that I am more "successful" in my job, but that is because I am more driven and assertive than him. But all this means when we got married and had children all the "traditional" things - the changing my name, me giving up work when I had a baby were absolutely not givens with us and we have always worked on the basis of absolute sharing of childcare responsibilities, with a clear understanding that its best to prioritise my job as I have better stability than him.

We have a nice life. We have happy, stable, funny, well mannered children. I deffo agree with WWW re friends taking a a bit of a back seat, but I have some great friends who I can pick up with whenever there is time and have made a few through te DCs at school (which surprises me as I am not an NCT type and never did any of that "bonding over babies" stuff).

Honestly, it can be done.

I'm rather good at organisation too . We all see lots of friends and family(singly/separately/jointly/as family - in fact all the permutations you can imagine) and travel a lot, and undoubtedly that is one of the big deciding factors in not pursuing the two full-on careers, because, if we were to see enough of one another and do enough with the children, the other stuff would have to give in the two-career scenario, and we really don't want it to.

As an aside, the "other stuff" feeds back very nicely into both our professional lives - both of us would actually have to have slightly different (and less interesting) career objectives if we were more sedentary.

A successful, happy partnership is about having the insight to pick a partner who you can grow with. It is essential to have good communication, and to try to ensure a good balance at all phases n your life so that neither partner feels they are not getting a good deal. Of course, having children brings a new dynamic to a relationship, and the more children you have together, the more complex (and fun!) the dynamic becomes.

I completely echo Anchovy's post (even down to the being married for 6 years before children).

The other factor that I think has contributed is that my parents have always had a gender neutral outlook on life and it never ever occurred to me that my life options were different to my brothers' purely as a result of gender. My sister is in a similar position which supports my theory.

It can be done, but you are right to think it is very, very hard work and doesn't magically happen without a lot of effort. I totally agree throwing as much money as you can at childcare/cleaning etc is the best solution - I have virtually nothing left out of my cash (self employed) for myself and accept that you may not be able to go on such nice holidays, eat out, buy lovely clothes for several years but the price of having someone look after your children/house really well (in my case much better than I'd do it myself ) is priceless. Of course if you are like Anna and adore being with babies then great but if you're not then I think the worst thing you could do to your marriage is become a sahm, you'd resent it forever.
Dh and I have had tough times, - as I said - we can't afford to go out much after we've paid all the wages but we now make a big effort to rent DVDs together and watch a couple a week, it gives us something to talk about that's not child related. Now I'd say we're the happiest we've ever been. I agree totally that the thing that really suffers is friendship and that's really tough - mn etc is fine but I think you have to force yourself out to meet old friends at least once a fortnight, there's nothing as heartening as a meal and a laugh with an old mate. Exhaustion is definitely the worst thing esp if you have a job that involves socialising with clients in the evening (I don't and am still shattered), we take turns to get up early with the dcs at weekends and give the other a lie in, I insist on lights out at 10.30 - on which point sex is very important too and you have to sometimes make room for that whether you're in the mood or not

cleaner, nanny? I think I've strayed into the VIP area of the site by mistake!!

But if you have two full on careers you pretty much have to have a nanny, SueMunch.

DH and I both leave at around 8am and get back about 7pm. Then there's half term, holidays, sick days etc. Plus we both sometimes have to travel, sometimes at short notice, entertain clients, have meetings that overrun etc so hours can vary a bit.

Not a "VIP" point, just a fact! I don't think it can be done if both of you are outside the house working every day without some sort of "in home" care, whether a nanny or an au pair (and my hours responsibilities are too much for an au pair legally, I think).