"But we took you to stately homes" - Part 4

[oneplusone]

Can't beleive we're onto part 4, although i can't see this thread ever dying.

I was just reading through past posts to try and catch up on the months i have missed and something somebody said has triggered something for me. I know my mother didn't bond with me or love me and i think part of the reason why was because she thought i took after my dad whom she hates (although she is too gutless to leave him). I remember when i was young her saying things like my hair was like my dad's but she wouldn't say it an affectionate way, but quite a venomous way and it always made me feel uncomfortable when she said that but i must have been too young to figure out why.

The more i realise about my mother the more i despise and hate her. I remember she used to play hide and seek with me when i was very young, about 3. Only she would 'really' hide in a place i would never be able to find her. I remember crying and feeling completely distressed one time as i thought she had gone and left me alone at home. It was only after i had been crying for some time that she jumped out laughing from her hiding place. What a nasty, cruel, ugly piece of work and she parades around looking as if butter wouldn't melt and she has a lot of people fooled including my 2 sisters. I know my dad can see her for what she is which is why she hates him and i can see her true colours too which is why i hate her.

I know inside she is deeply insecure, lacks intelligence, strength and integrity. I have witnessed her lie, manipulate and cheat to get what she wants and the people to whom she lies and those who she manipulates are us, her own family. I just can't beleive my sisters cannot see through her, they are totally blind and deaf to her true character and have completely fallen for the victim role she has carved out for herself.

Cutting off my parents was the best thing i ever did and i have realised i need to set some boundaries with my sisters, my last remaining friend and even DH. How to do that is another thing, something completely new to me.

smithfield thank you, i do so appreciate your taking time out to comment on my situation, your input has helped so much. ((((hug))))

I think my true feelings and their true nature and attitude towards me was obscured because they have also been nice to me on occasion as well but i guess that is once again the stately homes attitude rearing it's ugly head.

I am pleased i have recognised their toxicity, i always suspected it but just couldn't see it clearly before. This is why i love Alice Miller's booking, The Truth Will Set You Free as it's subtitled 'Overcoming Emotional Blindness..' and that is what i feel i am constantly doing, overcoming my emotional blindspots in all my relationships and finally seeing things clearly and exactly as they really are, without the picture being obscured or blurred in any way.

I had a strange experience last night.
I couldnt sleep, I was turning lots of things over in my head and I was feeling a lot of anger.
I was remembering things about my dad and things he had done which began making me furious. I even began punching the pillow at one stage.
Then I had another memory and when I remembered It and one other it was as though I was there (emotionally that is) as a child.
I felt confusion, sadness...and then I became overwhelmed and sobbed.
The thing is the crying felt good, really good...almost like a release.
Its really difficult to explain but it was like finding a connection within and fusing it back together.
I felt really calm afterwards.
I guess I just wanted to re-enforce that it did actually happen by writing it down and also to ask if anyone else had experienced this?
Or am I just odd

smithfield, i have had a few experiences like that and i think they're very important to the healing and recovery process. Alice Miller calls it 'emotional' knowledge as opposed to 'mere' intellectual knowledge of your childhood history. Is it the first time you have felt like this?

I have been feeling very angry towards DH recently. I just have to look at him and i feel like screaming and shouting at him . I have a feeling it's because i have a lot of pent up anger towards him from years ago which i never expressed as i was not confident enough to do so, i was too scared, and so i suppressed my feelings. But they are now coming to the surface, but i am still unable to express them clearly. I wish sometimes i could just go outside and scream and shout and stamp my feet and smash plates to physically release some of my anger, but then what on earth would the neighbours think?

Has anyone got any tips on how to physically release your anger? I have tried punching a pillow but just ended up hurting my hand! I need an axe and some logs so i can smash and bash them up! Seriously though, sometimes i feel a lot of tension inside that i need to release but don't know how. Any advice would be gratefully appreciated.

I have worked out something important (for me) in relation to my sisters. I feel anger towards the middle one but have also felt guilty for feeling angry as recently she has been quite good to me (albeit with little digs and upsets here and there). I think my guilt was 'blocking' my anger and keeping emotions bottled up inside is definately not a good thing.

But then i realised that the anger that i feel towards here is not anger in the 'here and now', it is anger from years ago when she was my tormentor. At that time, once again fear of my sister stopped me from expressing my anger, and i knew i wouldn't have the support of my mother if i did express my anger and so i hid and suppressed it. But that means that my anger is not unjustified, it is my authentic but unexpressed feeling from years ago when my sister would call me nasty, hurtful names and exclude me from things, and therefore i should not feel guilty for it.

But again how to now express it and release it is a problem. Writing does not seem enough, i feel i need a real physical outlet. Might google and see if i can find some ideas.

I am new here but am hoping that you can be an objective sounding board!

DH told me quite early on in our relationship about a sexually abusive relationship with his eldest brother ? the abusive behaviour took place over several months when DH was 8 and his eldest brother 13 (his brother was a tall and physically/genitally mature 13 year old). The sexual favours were very much all one way (DH didn?t have sexual feelings/responses at that age) and included eldest brother of four boys getting DH (no.3) to perform oral sex and sliding himself between DH?s thighs and bottom cheeks. It wasn?t forced in any way ? but DH went along with it not least as he felt flattered by the attention (he also felt very ashamed, dirty and yuk about it at the same time).

To cut a long story short, there has been a big family blow up and it's all come out. Eldest brother denies ("there is a difference of recollection between us") the most serious parts of what happened (the oral sex and the thigh/bottom rubbing), and the rest of the family have said that "all children sexually experiment - it's normal; you should make up with eldest brother and move on and think about the positive in your life, otherwise our family will fall apart". There has been nothing along the lines of "well, that was very wrong of eldest brother!" or "Well, I think in the end forgiveness is something to aim for, but of course in your own time! Of course we'll always love eldest brother dearly and be there for him too, but this was very wrong and it's very wrong he's never apologised as an adult".

Things are very difficult at the moment (we are estranged from all but youngest brother, who has tried slightly harder to be objective) because DH and I both consider the way the family has responded to be totally inadequate response. What do objective people think? Feel free to be honest! I personally feel quite shocked that they can regard what happened as "normal".

Twinklepom, your DH's family's response sounds to me like a classic toxic response ie denial and a refusal to accept responsibility where it's due. I suggest you and DH read Toxi Parents as a starting point in how to deal with and manage this complex issue.

Well done for posting on here, and continue to support your DH as you already have done, your support is invaluable and crucial in DH's ability to cope with what happened.

And don't worry about being estranged from most of the family, it may not be a permanent estrangement and actually having a bit of space from his family may be important in allowing DH space and time in which to deal with his emotions. As long as he has your 100% support, that is all that's important right now.

Hi Oneplusone,
I typed a note to you last night and had to save it because the server had issues, but now can't find it...

One thing crossed my mind about your sisters laughing at your dd on the video when there wasn't anything to laugh at. I think they are, indeed, using your dd to get at you. They know this would be very sensitive territory for you (as it would be for anyone). Their generosity to your daughter is a blind to have your daughter on their side-against you. I am for you thinking about the possibility of this. With this in mind, it may be easier to justify limiting dd's contact with her aunts. Wow, oneplusone, you really do have a full schedule!

Smithfield, your mention of triggers has put me on the trail of a few things. Thanks.

tmsb, thank you for your post, definately gives me food for thought. My sister laughing at DD i definately feel was actually her laughing at me. Now that we're adults she probably feels she can't openly do this like she used to so she does it in a more subtle way.

Re limiting DD's contact with her aunts...I think i feel guilty enough about her not seeing her grandparents and so am kind of thinking her seeing her aunts may make up a bit for her loss. But if it ends up being toxic contact i will have to limit it. I am not sure about it right now, will have to think about it.

I remember a couple of occasions years ago when DD was much younger, i remember middle sister being quite rough with DD. It was very difficult to tell whether it was accidental or deliberate and DD wasn't actualy hurt so i didn't really say anything. But i remember thinking at the time that i felt middle sister was jealous of the fact that i had DD (she wasn't even married at the time) and so was perhaps taking her feelings out on DD as of course she knew she wouldn't get away with taking her feelings out on me.

My younger sister also told me of an occasion when she thought middle sister was jealous of the fact that younger sister was about to get married and middle sister was quite unjustifiably rude and nasty to younger sister's fiance. I thought middle sister was jealous as she didn't have a boyfriend at the time and knew she couldn't take out her feelings on younger sister so took them out on the fiance instead.

I have been reading about difficult feelings such as anger and jealousy and if you feel you cannot openly take them out on the person who has caused them, because they are more 'powerful' than you, you take them out on someone who you feel can't fight back or defend themselves, someone over whom you have power or control. I'm sure that's what middle sister is doing but probably without even realising it herself. I'm sure she's used to supressing her feelings just like me, only i have been turning my feelings inwards onto myself and making myself ill, whereas middle sister takes hers out on others who she feels she has some power or control over and who can't or won't fight back.

oneplusone, I think you'Ve hit the nail on the head about your middle sister. About the fact she is taking her anger towards your parents out on you, whereas you tend to bottle your anger up and take it out on yourself.
Once you start to understand this dynamic,you see it everywhere. Once you know what to look for, you see cases of bullied or badly-treated people taking their hurt out on an easy target rather than the person who has caused them the pain.
By standing up to our parents, or in my case, cutting my mother out, what we are doing is actually facing the bully herself/himself head on. We are directing the rage back at the person who caused it i.e the person who deserves it and this is a good and healthy thing to do.
People who say 'Oh but you only have one mother' and the like don't realised that people who stay friends with their mother and father in order to keep the peace, or because they're scared, end up taking their messed up feelings out on their children. EVery single person on this thread has made a choice not to do this, as best they possibly can. But the only way to protect our children from ourselves, is to get rid of the people who are actually causing the pain IYSWIM.

My MIL is a bully through and through. She attacked me at my most vulnerable (45mins after giving birth to DD) and continued to attack me. It turns out that FIL was having an affair and when all this was discovered she started to treat me worse. It was terrible. DH told her to divorce him, but she got annoyed that he mentioned it, and has now brushed it all under the carpet. THis was a classic case of her taking out all her anger towards FIL on me, a young girl in a foreign country, with no mother or father to speak of, and who had just given birth! What a nasty piece of work!

Sakura/oneplusone- Thats really interesting for me to read.
I am in the middle of recognising a very interesting dynamic between middle db and me. I think there may be an element of this as well. As in taking anger out on me rather than at my parents.
In fact possibly both middle db and sis do this. I think the only one who doesnt do this is younger db and I think he and I are the only two out of the four who turned the anger in on ourselves.
Its a shocking element of abuse filtering and seeping through the family like a virus.
Having said that I know I have done this myself (as in transferring my anger), I do this with DH...but it has lessened to a huge degree recently.

Sakura- I want to thank you for reminding me why I am doing this. I woke up confused (again!). Then came down and read your post.

'By standing up to our parents, or in my case, cutting my mother out, what we are doing is actually facing the bully herself/himself head on. We are directing the rage back at the person who caused it i.e the person who deserves it and this is a good and healthy thing to do.'

I am going to do something that may sound strange this afternoon. I am going to find somewhere quiet where i am totally alone and I am going to yell and scream and shout and say all the things i have been wanting to say for years to all the people who have hurt and upset me over the years. I have a list of people, it's rather long :

mother
father
middle sister
younger sister
mother in law
DH
a friend (who is no longer a friend)

I think i need to physicaly release my pent up anger, just writing about it is not enough.

oneplusone- I do relate to what you're saying. What I am feeling currently is that 'I' no longer want to be the rubbish bin for other people's angry emotions.

Mum
dad
db's
sis
MIL
BIL
SIL

I think the key for me is to become more adept at recognising when and how it is happening and then come up with a way of staying in adult so they actually have to keep their anger and 'cant' release it onto me.

I think I will speak to my therapist about this and google for some ideas.
I did read somehwere and I think it was Danae ( where are you danae? I miss you!) who talked about imagining a barrier between yourself and the toxic person when you are with them. The barrier can be anything you like, like a blue light which would give them an electric shock if they touched it emotionally or physically, barbed wire, anything.
The barrier is there to protect you and stop the toxicity seeping through. You can instead remain calm and unharmed on the other side of it. I like that idea.

The thing is we can change or alter our own reactions but we cant change other peoples. So we have to either stop them using us as their feed or cut them out.
What other alternative is there?

The other thing is building up my own self esteem and value. I think if I can do that then I will become more confident in recognising the dynamic and dealing with it in the moment.
I would be then perhaps be confident enough to say (in my head) or even out loud! 'Actually that's you're bucket of shit not mine...go dump it somewhere else!'

Can I join you please?

Don't know where to start so hope you don't mind me asking a question first.

Is it usual for dysfunctional/toxic families to have an 'incident' and then for everyone to just carry on as if nothing has happened and we are a lovely close family?

Sorry I have namechanged for this as I want to say more but am so incredibly embarrassed about my part in the most recent incident.

Mrs Pogle;

Is it usual for dysfunctional/toxic families to have an 'incident' and then for everyone to just carry on as if nothing has happened and we are a lovely close family?

In short the answer is yes. Absolutely yes.
The main reason most of us post on here is because it is impossible to communicate how any of us feel about past or current abuse because standard answers are...'it never happened', 'but we took you to stately homes', or the plain ignore stance.

Fear of blowing the family apart is normally greater than an acknowledgment of abuse.

If it was otherwise then so many of us would not need to write on threads like this. We could be able to gain closure by going to the source of our discomfort and pain and feel validated by their acceptance they failed us in some way.

Do you feel able to explain a bit more about you're situation? Or is it too sensitive/painful currently?

"Is it usual for dysfunctional/toxic families to have an 'incident' and then for everyone to just carry on as if nothing has happened and we are a lovely close family?"

Absolutely!!!. Happens all the time with regards to my outlaws. I completely agree with what Smithfield (hi there) has written.

I will try to explain but at the moment I'm having trouble seeing the screen as I burst into tears when I read your replies.

Hi Mrs P

Dry your tears and take all the time you need. You will get a sympathetic "ear" here.

Attila

Yes Mrs Pogle- As atilla said ( hello back at ya!)

You will get nothing but support here. It really is a safe haven for you to vent. You will find writing about your feelings cathartic.

Not being validated by your own family will leave you either bottling up those feelings and turning them in on yourself, or projecting your anger on to someone else like partners and dc's. Or both.

((((((mrs Pogle)))))) Take as long as you want, but do try and come back and write someting....anything.

Crying is good. Let it out and feel your emotions. Your entitled to them after all.
------

Atilla- How are the bonkers in-laws? Have they been over this weekend? Give us an update when you can. xx

The latest incident:

DH and I went with my mum, sister and kids to a wildlife park. Last weekend of the summer holidays so as you can imagine very crowded public place. During our picnic my sister pointed out that DH and I both seemed more than a little tense. I tried to explain why (we had been bickering for a couple of days over seemingly trivial things). Both sis and mum think the sun shines out of DH's bum (He is pretty wonderful most of the time but not the last few days and I'm the one who lives with him). I was blamed for spoiling the day out because I was criticising DH and told if I wasn't happy how DH did things then I should do them myself. I asked why I should do everything at home just because DH works 40 hours a week outside the home and it escalated from there. Most of this is irrelevant but gives an idea of our relationships. My sister is a WOHM who according to her copes so much better with her two older children than I cope with my one toddler. I think she has a very selective memory as in all areas.

Anyway back to the point: my mum's reasoning was that DH shouldn't be expected to do any childcare because my father didn't. It all came to a head when I blurted out that DH was thankfully totally different to our dad. DH wouldn't dream of dragging his sleeping child out of bed to tidy up the room...

My mum looked me directly in the eyes and said "that didn't happen". I know it happened. I would have been about 6, my sister was 4 we shared a room at the time as our youngest sister was a baby. I probably would have handled it a little better if mum had said she didn't remember it. After all it happened at least 35 years ago and was probably more significant to me at the time.

My sister and mum are now both saying that I need to get help for my mental illness.

There are loads of other examples, well I am now in my 40s and have always had a difficult relationship with my Dad. I've never been close to my mum. Only recently I started to put some of the responsibilty on her for not protecting me and my sisters. It just never occurred to me that she would deny it ever happened at all as I've never been able to talk to her in any real depth. My main feeling at the moment is shock. I asked DH if I was overreacting and whether he thinks I should just go along with playing happy families. He said if he was me he wouldn't want anything to do with the lot of them.

Hi Smithfield

No, but MIL is visiting here tomorrow so can update you then. Think I'll need to write something down post visit to calm me down!.

Apparantly (and this is what DH has told me after MIL phoned him at work earlier this week) DH's Dad told their other son (this being my BIL who is 45 going on 14 btw) last Monday to "tidy his room because the gas man was going to inspect all the radiators". You couldn't make it up really. Needless to say BIL's cesspit was not tidied up. As far as I know as well this sorry pair of twats continue to gang up on MIL (but serves her right really, she is also one of many causes of their dysfunction).

Mrs P - can only second again what Smithfield is saying. ((((((((((Mrs P)))))))))))

Attila x

Mrs P

Respect to you for coming back and posting on here. I hope that this response along with the others you will receive will go some way to helping you.

I see you've had the, "well it didn't happen" response. Yes, typical toxic parent response this. I could give you an answer to that which goes along the lines of "well just because you don't remember does not mean that it did not happen".

Do you have any sort of relationship with your Dad at all these days or is he now out of your lives?. Sorry for all the questions; you of course don't have to answer.

Reading between the lines it sounds like he did cruel things, your Mother protected her own self from the worst of his behaviours out of her own sense of self presevation and selfishness (she was the bystander and likely knew what was going on) but left the rest of you to suffer at his hands. She turned a blind eye.

I don't know you from Adam but your sister and Mum are totally out of line to suggest you need treatment for a mental illness. It is THEY who have the selective memories. Toxic people as well never take responsibility - its always someone's else's fault. They well have made you the scapegoat for their ills.

Would suggest as a starting point too you read "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward. This book is still in print and can be bought online.

It also seems to me like both your parents were and still are emotionally abusive.

Your DH saying that he would not want anything to do with them is highly instructive. I would personally take heed of those words of his - he is your best support now. You can break the circle of their destructive and dysfunctional behaviours. Living well is the best revenge - concentrate your efforts on your own family unit.

Mrs P
my husband has spent many years supporting me and helping me break away from toxic memebers of my family.
He always refused point blank to do family Christmases and although I felt terrible at first, many years down the line I see he was so right, and my mental outlook is so much better not being the butt of everyone else talking shite, making fun of me and "not being able to recall" events that they do not want to deal with.
I now can see them as the moral cowards that they are, as well as minor bullies and liars.

Your life will be immeasureably improved by reducing contact with people who flatly refuse to acknowledge difficult events that have affected you badly.

Personally I do not know how people can deny events like these (including child abuse by a father where the mother refuses to admit it happened, yes, that's in my family too) but it does happen.

The best thing is to avoid them...find people who DO like and love you and spend the emotional investment in them.

Good luck.
It's worth doing.

Hi all, sorry but i need to let off some steam. I really feel like I hate DH at the moment. It is like I am suddenly seeing him as he really is, just how i did with my family when i started seeing how toxic they were after being blind to them all for years.

The problem is how do i deal with it? I cut off my family and it was relatively easy. But of course I live with DH and we have 2 young DC's and so cutting him off, is not really an option. I don't think talking to him would do any good at all, i think he is actually unaware of his toxicity and has no real insight into himself. If i talked to him i know i'd get one of the classic toxic responses.

I really don't know what to do, it's very hard to deal with and i have recently found myself blowing up at him over the slightest thing and i know it's because i am bottling up a lot of anger i feel towards him.

Mrs Pogle- It is very hard accepting that our mothers do not love us either 'at all' or 'enough'. They put themselves and their own needs first.

This is what your mother did in the past when you were a small child and needed her to do the opposite and put you first, which is as it should be.
If she failed you then when you were so small and innocent it follows she would do the same now.

If it helps you to know my mother has used this line with me too and although she didnt go as far as 'saying' I was mentally unstable she did imply in front of my sister that I was 'losing'/had a 'faulty' memory. She did this to ensure no-one else would trust my recollection of certain events.

So you are not alone and you must not question yourself...'you' are the STRONG one...the only one with the strength to stand up and say actually this was wrong. You are not as Migsie says 'morally weak' as are they.

Your mother has failed you terribly Mrs Pogle, the hardest bit is facing that as the truth head on. None of this is your fault.

How much time do you spend with your mother and sister generally?
Could you reduce contact?
Do you feel your behaviour with Dc's and DH is affected by your upbringing and what is currently happening?

And do you still see your father?

Hi oneplusone,
I can't say I know exactly the situation you are in, but sometimes my dh ... tmsb lets out deep breath.
Well, he tends to belittle and dismiss me whenever he is around his father by dumping me on his mother (bonkers herself) and basically ignore me the whole time we visit his folks. At home, he generally simply does not listen to me-unless I am talking to myself at the kitchen sink in a whisper-then he is like -"What did I say?". So I have to repeat myself over and over-do I have to qualify to speak? It isn't important unless I go to the trouble to say something at least 3 times?
You know my childhood background of invisibility/unloved - so this is very toxic indeed to me although I didn't have the realization until last fall. It doesn't happen so much now that he is on AD and I let him know that I'm not going to tolerate his behavior at the inlaws anymore (if he wanted me to go at all) so things have gotten better.

Ignoring the toxic behavior is not good, we all have a working understanding of that. I ignored it with dh for sooo long that I got used to my "plan B" which was more time for me. Brush me off?-ok, I have other things to do.
But things are pretty much benign here overall. We don't- and have never- 'picked on' each other for the petty things that can crop up. He is just a regular guy that does regular guy stuff that is naturally offensive to ladies . I don't think that is toxic.
I think when someone intentionally plans to use you to feed their ego (whatever emotional need-entertainment?) then, imho, that is toxic. That was the fellow I was briefly engaged to in college-I am thankful everyday that I broke that off.
Oneplusone, let him know what behaviors of his bother you, nicely. He can not read your mind, nor you-his. I am guessing sorry . Try some marriage counseling books; Dr. Laura's book on the Care and Feeding of Husbands helped me see some things from his point of view-and it helped me alot.

But you are right to put dh in a completely different category than your parents/inlaws. And don't forget to consider his freight train of emotional baggage (view filters) that he is operating from...that might help explain (though not excuse) some things.
And lastly-give this alot of time. Our heads are swimming in grief for childhoods, self-realizations, reparenting ourselves, and recovering/finding our truths and our feelings. It might be that your dh sees you having the courage to face the painful things -and maybe he doesn't have the courage to face his own stuff? So be kind, stand up for yourself, but do it with kindness to dh.

I know that if you can't see dh as a friend it is like not having a single friend in the whole world(-is for me ). So it is a blow to have to qualify the relationship.
But you know truthfully and without a doubt that I am your friend, Oneplusone, as are all the others here. You are not alone, we are all with you and behind you 100%. ((hugs))