"But we took you to stately homes" - Part 4

[oneplusone]

Can't beleive we're onto part 4, although i can't see this thread ever dying.

I was just reading through past posts to try and catch up on the months i have missed and something somebody said has triggered something for me. I know my mother didn't bond with me or love me and i think part of the reason why was because she thought i took after my dad whom she hates (although she is too gutless to leave him). I remember when i was young her saying things like my hair was like my dad's but she wouldn't say it an affectionate way, but quite a venomous way and it always made me feel uncomfortable when she said that but i must have been too young to figure out why.

The more i realise about my mother the more i despise and hate her. I remember she used to play hide and seek with me when i was very young, about 3. Only she would 'really' hide in a place i would never be able to find her. I remember crying and feeling completely distressed one time as i thought she had gone and left me alone at home. It was only after i had been crying for some time that she jumped out laughing from her hiding place. What a nasty, cruel, ugly piece of work and she parades around looking as if butter wouldn't melt and she has a lot of people fooled including my 2 sisters. I know my dad can see her for what she is which is why she hates him and i can see her true colours too which is why i hate her.

I know inside she is deeply insecure, lacks intelligence, strength and integrity. I have witnessed her lie, manipulate and cheat to get what she wants and the people to whom she lies and those who she manipulates are us, her own family. I just can't beleive my sisters cannot see through her, they are totally blind and deaf to her true character and have completely fallen for the victim role she has carved out for herself.

Cutting off my parents was the best thing i ever did and i have realised i need to set some boundaries with my sisters, my last remaining friend and even DH. How to do that is another thing, something completely new to me.

just reading back thru and realised I put not that there should be any need and it should have been not that there needs to be any justification.

Sorry.

Woke up in the night and felt this horrible 'pain' in my heart - not a physical pain, just really really sad. I feel like it has been there all the time but I usually ignore it. Will it ever go away? I have a feeling it won't, I'll just have to distract myself from it. Finding it hard to make myself do anything this morning but I haven't got depression. I don't know why I am writing this, there is nothing anyone can do. It might get some of it out I suppose. I am not alone but I feel scared that I might be. It's illogical. I've got loads I have to get done this morning (probably not loads but feels like it) and feel I'm going to get overwhelmed and I can't cope with having to do anything right now. Actually it does sound like depression but I really don't think it is this time, just sadness.

Message withdrawn

Hi AN and Podmog, I sympathise I really do, I have definately been there and done that. And i don't really know how to help you except to tell you what I have learnt to do when i feel like you. I have basically learnt to not push away any painful, sad, unhappy feelings, and instead I just allow myself to feel them and eventually they pass and I feel much better. It sounds so very simply and for a person from a 'normal' family it is simple. But for someone like me, who from a very very early age learnt not to show her feelings, well not her 'negative' feelings (ie sadness, pain, upset, worry, confusion etc) because they made my mother uncomfortable, it is something I have had to learn to do. Only by being very conscious of the thoughts constantly flitting through my head have i learnt to do this. I try and grasp those fleeing thoughts, as i have begun to think they are coming from my subconcious mind into my conscious mind and are thoughts and feelings I am trying to supress or push away because i don't know how to or don't want to face them/deal with them.

Anyway, what i am trying to explain badly, is if you feel down/anxious/sad, try and be very aware of your fleeing thoughts as they will probably give you a clue as to why you are feeling down.

I have learnt for myself that the only way past the pain is through it but just beyond the pain there is happiness/contentment/peace.

Not only did my 'difficult' feelings as a young child made my mother feel uncomfortable, but she rejected my feelings and instead of 'taking them from me' as a mother should, she forced me to keep my feelings to myself and because i was just a child and far too young to understand some of these painful and powerful emotions i suppressed/buried them. Burying feelings means they can build up and cause illness as they have done in my case (eczema) but also you fail to learn the crucial lesson of how to 'feel your feelings' and how to manage your painful feelings and this greatly hinders you as an adult in all your relationships. I think this is perhaps why we all on this thread seem to have difficulties in our relationships with our DC's.

OMG, just tried to call my sister. Someone picked up the phone and I heard her baby crying so thought her husband might answer and I heard a male voice say hello, and it was my dad. I haven't seen or spoken to him for over 2 years and have no intention of ever seeing him again. Ijust put the phone down immediately.

I thought I would be shaking, but I feel ok at the moment, perhaps will have a delayed reaction later. Hope not.

AN- sorry you're feeling like this atm. I know it isnt pleasant but I do agree with oneplusone. You maybe have to just 'allow' yourself to feel the pain.

Not something Im good at either.

Do you think the visit to your parents triggered these emotions?

Ive been wondering if when we are in the process of cutting off/setting our boundaries we are kind off running on adrenalin in order to act and then when everything calms down again we have time to digest the reality of it all?

I have started to feel quite low. I don't like leaving the house, and I get impatient with visitors after a few hours. At the same time I HATE that I haven't been able to get a job yet, and being home alone all day (especially in such dodgy weather). My DP has definitely noticed I'm not really myself, and is being really very good and helpful doing lots of work that really I should be doing and generally looking after me, making sure I'm okay and eat a decent dinner (I have started eating very little when he is not home). I think the pregnancy and stuff with my mother has pushed me into a depression, and although it's not very serious and I was aware that I would be at risk of getting AN depression but it is making me panic that I might get it PN as well and that I won't be able to cope with this baby at all.

I don't really know what to do or who to go to for help, and the idea of going for help is very difficult for me, I have had depression before but I fought through it myself and totally on my own as I felt I couldn't tell anybody. Obviously, I had problems with my family and didn't feel they were capable of being helpful, and I was helping a very close friend through her own depression and I felt I would be letting her down if I confessed to feeling the same way in more than a vague sense.

It will sound stupid but I get a lot of pride from the fact that I got through it on my own, through sheer gut will and determination and little schemes I invented for myself which basically meant I scheduled and controlled my own therapy without ever involving other people. I nearly killed myself several times, but I never resorted to self-harming because I felt if I gave that inch I could never have it back, and I take pride in that as well.

I feel like I can't tell DP how bad I am feeling, as it will let all his hard work down. And I can have fun sometimes, it's just... there's this kind of monotany and a sense that I'm not good enough that's seeping into everything and making me feel like I'm not good enough.

Argh. I just wanted to write this down. I don't know. Maybe it's just early pregnancy stuff and it will lift when I see the scans etc, but that won't be for another two weeks, and I'm already struggling to cope.

I hope your pregnancy is going better Ally! Has the MS (stupid misleading name) got any better yet?

will comment on rest later. I wrote a post yesterday but computer wiped it!

laweaselmys- You must firstly be patient with yourself. This may pass. Dont forget your body is going through HUGE changes, hormonally this is bound to give you more ups and downs than normal.

Do not panic about PND, yes it may happen but also 'it may not'. Having it doesnt mean you cant or wont cope either. It just makes things a bit more difficult but you would get through it.

My final bit of advice (from someone who has been through this several times now) is...You must not bottle this up! It will make you feel worse. You may have a lot of anxiety about sharing these feelings because of how your mother makes you feel about yourself.
You need support, so talk to your partner and talk to your midwife. They 'will' understand, they will not show you any reproach.

You also need to try your damdest to treat yourself with exta loving care. Which means STOP BEATING YOURSELF UP NOW! There you've been told .

Instead treat yourself to a nice lavender bath (pref candlelit), tommorrow go for a gentle walk and if you 'can' I cant recommend antenatal yoga highly enough.

You are doing really well. This isnt unusual at all....many women with all kinds of backgrounds feel as you do. Have a look at the antenatal boards and you will see.
xx

OnePlusOne, thank you, you are so wise! Everything you said makes sense and it makes me feel comforted. How are you feeling about your DH today? Do you feel calmer? I know I can feel extreme things one day and then calm and contented a few days later! It might be different for you though. I've gone back on the pill - Yasmin - the one that is supposed to be good for PMT. It has only been a week but I do feel more 'level' so far - with DH and DCs - they still make me crazy but it doesn't feel so out of control.

Smithfield/OnePlusOne, this thing about delayed reactions seems true and seems to have been talked about a few times on here. I was hyped up for my visit to parents, it went the way I wanted, then I felt 'high' for a couple of days, then delayed sadness! I think it is the sadness that goes with the acceptance that what I got out of the visit is all I am ever going to get from them - 2 more people to be nice to my children and somewhere for them to visit (actually that is quite a valuable thing I suppose), a reminder to be grateful for how much better my relationship with DH is than my parents relationship with each other, and how much better my relationship with my children is than their relationships with their children (me and bro), and a reminder of how much I survived when I lived there, how strong I must have been and how much I have achieved since then despite them. I don't feel any connection with them though. They will never acknowledge my feelings or what happened to me. They will never make me feel loved, comforted, reassured, praised or listened to. They will never be interested in the real me beyond all the surface level stuff they can cope with. They are almost like strangers, not even as close to me as my shallowest friends. Nobody can make me feel how a loving mother would have (except maybe in the first stages of being in love but you can't just keep ending and starting new relationships every year!) and it is hard to accept that I never had that and never will. I can partly fill the gap in me, but never totally. I think we have to accept that sometimes we will feel the sadness of this, on and off for the rest of our lives. This is hard to accept and I don't know if I have yet. Even after all the therapy and how much better I feel about a lot of things, this sadness will remain. Maybe I shouldn't be whinging. Imagine people who have lost a child eg the McCanns - the level of pain they have to live with and can't do much about! Maybe most people have something that hurts every now and then and I should be lucky it isn't something worse. I do have a lot of good in my life, I can see that when I compare my life to, say, my mum's! (just writing to convince myself into feeling better

LaWeasel, the things you are saying really reminds me of what a friend of mine, also pregnant, was saying this pm! I don't think you can judge whether you are good enough when you are so exhausted from pregnancy (and the early stages are just as exhausting as when you have an obvious bump!), that you are struggling to function! This isn't the way you would normally be, when you are in full health and not growing another life inside you as well as using your energy on yourself. You are not operating on full power and this is perfectly understandable, so you shouldn't judge yourself about how good you are all the time on how you are doing now! There is no shame in asking for help for depression. You would still be fighting it yourself - by going to the doctor yourself and asking for the tools (pills or extra help) you need to make yourself better. More sleep is always good as well I think. Your DH can see that you deserve help and you do! You are doing a massive and important thing - growing a new human! Don't wear yourself out thinking you have to struggle on your own 'for your pride', leaving not enough resources in you for your baby and your own health. You should be cutting down what you expect of yourself by at least half! You are sharing your resources with someone else! Look after yourselves because you are both very important.

Hi AN, thank you for your kind words, DH and my parents would be very surprised to hear you say you think I am wise and the things I say make sense. They have all, at various times, told me they think I am mad and need to see a psychiatrist! I would feel upset at that but I know enough about this whole thing now to know that telling the person who is telling the truth they are mad is simply a common way that toxic people react to avoid having to face their own fears and insecurities. My parents are definately highly toxic and I have been realising in the last few days that DH is also slightly toxic. In fact I think if you have parents, you will be toxic in some way and to some degree, so that means all of us! At least we on this thread are dealing with our issues, people like my DH aren't even aware they have issues.

Thank you for asking about DH, like you, I am a lot calmer now after my huge blow out the other day when i told DH I hated him. I was shocked at myself when i said that, but i think now i have had negative feelings building up against DH for ages but I have been fighting them because I felt guilty as he has been very good to me. But nevertheless he has also done many things to hurt and upset me and that is why i have angry feelings towards him. In a way it's exactly what must have happened in relation to my parents until i had a massive blow out at them and cut them off. Anyway, I have learnt a very important lesson for myself as a result of what happened which is to not try and fight my negative feelings which is something i have done all my life. I also need to somehow get DH to understand that he does say things to hurt me and these aren't somehow cancelled out by the good stuff as he seems to think. Again just like my parents......the stately homes attitude I suppose. The trouble is DH gets VERY defensive if i even so much as hint at any criticism of him so am not at all sure how i will talk to him. He should be used to criticism as his mum is always critcising him but i guess that's the root of the problem. I feel like i'm going off topic here and yet i know these problems i'm having with DH are as a result of my toxic childhood and his toxic mother.

I can relate to every single thing you said in your second paragraph about your parents. I too feel the loss of never having had loving, caring, nurturing parents. It feels like a hole inside me that i know can never be filled. I think you're right that we will always feel a certain amount of sadness about our loss and i think that is natural and normal and we should allow ourselves time to feel our sadness and grieve for the loss. The grieving process may take a very long time, i suspect the rest of our lives. But i don't think it will always be as intense as it perhaps is now as we, hopefully, as time goes by, will recieve love from our children and others with whom we build healthy relationships. Right now, in my case I think my DC's are far too young to really be able to 'give' me or anyone any love, I think right they need to be 'filled up' with love from me and DH and when they are adults they will be able to love other people, including us. That is what should have happened to us, but instead we were left empty inside as our parents were unable to give us the love that we needed, probably as they were empty inside themselves. It is a cycle but we can take comfort in the fact that we are able and willing to go through the pain that we are now going through in order to stop the cycle and stop it being passed on to future generations. I am proud of myself for doing this, even if DH and my parents cannot see it.

AN, i respect you for being willing to see your parents for the sake of your children. That is something that constantly troubles me. I know my parents adored my DD when i was in contact with them and she adored them. Luckily she was very young, (2.9) when i cut off contact and DS was only 2 months old so neither of them remember my parents at all. But I know they are suffering a loss because of my decision, and yet my decision is also benefitting my DC's as i know i am a much better mother and much happier person for cutting off my parents. And I know i couldn't have achieved what i have achieved in the past 2 years in terms of my recovery and healing from my childhood abuse/neglect if i had maintained contact with my parents. I needed the emotional and physical space that cutting off contact gave me, and it also made me feel 'safe', ie I knew i was surrounded only by people that supported me and wanted me to be happy and to be myself ie DH and a handful of friends,

I haven't ruled out the possibility that perhaps in the future i may establish some sort of relationship, purely for the sake of my DC's, but only when i feel ready and strong enough to be able to handle a relationship. I feel ok after 'accidentally' saying hello to my dad on the phone yesterday, so i think that is a good sign that i am a long way down the road of recovery.

I came across an article the other day about maternal ambivalence and also mothers who regret having their children. These are obviously taboo subjects and are rarely mentioned or admitted to in RL. But the author of the article said it was not unusual for some mothers to feel this way and i think i am one of them and again this is a feeling i have been fighting for ages as it seems too terrible. Reading the article really made me feel so much better as i don't feel like some sort of freak. Anyway, the point i am making is that earlier in my posts i said that i thought the anger i felt sometimes at my DD stemmed from my childhood and should really have been directed at my mother. And i still think that is true and i really no longer feel the pure rage and hatred towards DD that i used to. I wrote a letter to my mother, which i never sent, in which i poured out all my feelings of rage, anger, confusion etc and that seemed to do a lot to get it out of my system

But, i started to feel a bit confused as despite not feeling angry towards my DD i still didn't feel the relationship was quite how it should be. I still had a lot of resentment towards DD and after reading that article about maternal ambivalence i realise i do actually resent DD to a certain extent. And that is because she was unplanned, i wasn't ready to have her, i didn't want to have a girl if i was going to have a baby, after i had her my eczema flared up which has caused endless problems and distress for me, i lost my freedom, my body, my life, myself, and although none of this is DD's fault, i nevertheless know i have been harbouring resentment towards her for all of this as it was due to her being concieved. But, i am no longer fighting those feelings, i know the only way past the feelings is through them, and so perhaps i need to write another letter that will of course not be sent, but will enable me to voice my innermost thoughts and feelings and thus enable to get past them and move forward and hopefully improve even further my relationship with DD.

I think our feelings, whatever they are, are neither 'bad' nor 'good', we should not 'judge' our feelings, we should just let them 'be', allow ourselves to feel them, and then move on. For me personally, that is the only way i think i can avoid getting uncontrollably angry, avoid my eczema flaring up, and find some inner peace and happiness.

Sorry for this long post, i didn't itend to go on so much, but i find writing so theraputic and constructive, i almost work things out in my head whilst i'm writing rather than beforehand.

Ok Im just going to write and see if anything shifts, so feel free to ignore this post.

Another bad day. It was as though I knew as soon as I woke up that it would be. Like something inside me became like stone and refused to shift from its negative perspective.

So what do I feel? Exploring my feelings, and being honest with them? Well it feels wierd tbh but here goes.

Honestly today I feel resentment and I feel that resentment toward my dc's but mainly toward ds. This makes me feel terrible and guilt ridden and sad, incredibly sad.

I feel I just cant give him what he needs. His needs dont stop and nothing I do is good enough and it feels like Im trying to put a finger in the wall of a damn.
He is a flood of emotions at the moment and I dont feel equipped to deal with his emotions when I cant even deal with my own. I seem to be constantly upsetting him, hurting his feelings. He now throws himself down on the floor in his toy room next door if I tell him off over anything (and not even shouting). Or he apologises over and over again and then asks 'Are you my friend mummy?' Today he asked 'Do you love me mummy?'

He barely 'ever' plays independently, despite having a room full of toys and at 3 has dropped his sleeps, so it is constant 6 days a week meeting his and dd's needs and I am exhausted.

I feel like Im beginning to act like a petulant teenager, muttering under my breath because Ive 'yet again' fetched something for ds, and it is not good enough, he is on to the next thing he wants, or the thing he asked for isnt right in some way.

I know this is wrong...I know this is damaging (AS IN feeling/acting/behaving in this way, I am supposed to be the adult FGS)

BUT I sway between being emotionally unreachable and smothering. Some days I think I am failing him so badly because I am so shit at this job. I have no idea how to mother him appropriately. I dont even feel like an adult inside.
If I dont have boundaries myself then how can I show ds how to have them.

I veer between thinking of him as spoilt and witholding from him to thinking of him as my angel and overindulging him.

I recognise that ds is crying out for my attention and I just dont have anything to give him at the moment. I know I love him very much but I honestly feel lately that 'there are times' when I dont like him But I know that he is in fact just being a typical 3 year old at the same time.

This is a shocking post, Im tempted to delete it altogether.

The fact I have the two of them without a break six days a week is the hardest part I think. I dont know how many days I can just wander aimlessly through the town with them and take them to lunch just so I can feel half human and their demands dont feel so intense.

Is this me turning it in on myself again? Punishing myself?

I see ds as my mum sometimes Im sure, demanding things of me and controlling me. Im sure that's what it is and then because of my ingrained response at blaming myself for my mothers behaviour I then blame ds' behaviour on me. Im a bad mother therefore he behaves this way.

I dont know how to change this though, because when I feel like this and ds is coming at me again and again I can just feel it all rise in my stomach and I have to grit my teeth and pretend, when inside I am seething. Maybe he even knows, senses my feelings.

If I could know for sure that he was just normal and not damaged by me in any way it was somehow make me feel better, take the pressure off me. But how can I ever know that? How do I know what he feels when I am responding or not responding to him. How do I tell if he does or doesnt feel secure?

I cant answer any of these questions myself because Im not qualified to. The reason Im not qualified to is because of my ingrained belief that nothing 'I do' is good enough. So I cant possibly judge this one can I.

Hi smithfield, i have just skimmed through your post, but from what i've read, what you are feeling is absolutely NORMAL. I have felt the same many a time and on a daily basis. I don't know if i mentioned the book already, but Torn in Two by Roszika Parker is excellent. It's about maternal ambivalence ie the co-existence of feelings of love and hate/anger/resentment towards your children. She says it's normal but taboo ie not talked about or admitted openly by mothers in RL. I have just been listening to an archive women's hour discussion about this very subject and will try and do a link for you.

I have also just written about feeling resentment and anger towards DD that is actually aimed at her and does not stem from my childhood. I have been fighting these feeling for ages, until i read an article that said these feelings were normal, and suddenly, i was able to allow myself to admit (to myself) that i felt this way towards DD. I don't feel guilty any more and i actually admitting to, feeling and eventually releasing and letting go of these feelings is far better than trying to bottle them up and yet having them escape now and then towards DD.

Here's the link, you can listen to the discussion if you click on the button, it's about 5 minutes long.

www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/02/2008_09_tue.shtml

This is another discussion about the same thing, i really recommend you listen.

www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/2005_52_tue_03.shtml

hi oneplusone- Thanks for the files but Im having trouble with opening them (not sure if Ive got the right software) so I will try again later. DH is out tonight so I will have more time.

Im not sure that 'maternal ambivelence' is what Im feeling though? I do still, or part of still does feel that this filters through from my childhood.

Even if I have few memories of my mother when I was small I still have clear ones of her when my siblings were small. One image that (now Im a mother) shocks me is my sister grabbing hold of the side of the pram and sitting up, and my mother screeching with surprise. The fact was that the twins (sis and younger bro) spent 'all' of their time in a pram in the living room unless they were being changed or fed. There was no other interaction. That's why when my sister suddenly sat up my mother was shocked. But my sister must have laid in her pram everyday until 8/9 months when she pulled herself up.

I was generally the one who had the job of rocking them to sleep during the day when they were awake and crying or unsettled.

I can only assume I recieved the same level of interaction when I was a baby. In fact less because my nan looked after me. Any pictures of me as a baby, are of 'just me' playing alone.
My mother is the same now with the grandchildren.

I guess it is then difficult for me to give what I never had, and also on the level that ds needs it currently. It takes so much energy. I feel completely depleted.

I also didnt feel like this before dd came along. I feel more restricted having two of them and more house bound. A lot of my bad feelings come into play when we are stuck at home.

Again I think being stuck at home with the two children and little other interaction brings up some really bad feelings for me.
Up until I was 17 I was barely ever allowed out. And I mean 'ever'.That is how controlling my parents were. I was not allowed out on my own anywhere and I remember feeling so restless and like I was going mad at times. I had no hobbies, as my mum didnt have time with the younger kids. We moved when I was 14 and my mum said no more dance lessons and up until then I had gone 3 times a week and to guides once a week.
Even at 17 I was only allowed to date a boyfriend and I had to stay downstairs in the front room with him with the doors open.
I was allowed no privacy or downtime. I didnt even have a front door key until I was 18.
The day before my 18th birthday there was a huge argument and physical fight between my dad and I.
He got me round the neck at one point and said 'I will f'cking kill you'
He said to my mum 'either she goes or I do'.
During that argument that night I felt as though I was fighting for my right to freedom.
They gave me a key the next evening and things did get better to some extent but I moved out shortly after that.

So I guess the being stuck inside makes me feel like that again. Imprisoned. I cant work in an office because it reminds me too much of being controlled. Someone watching my every move and what Im doing.
It makes me physically ill.

OnePlusOne/Smithfield, I think you have had the courage to say some things lots of people are afraid to say. I want to write a long comment but I am so tired from packing to go on holiday tomorrow night! I should be looking forward to it but I've got myself really stressed and panicky about getting prepared on time and making sure the children will be ok and we have everything they will need etc. I can't believe I ever thought it was stressful when it was just us without the kids! Anyway, I might have time to post tomorrow morning, but if not, bye bye for a week and I will miss you all! DH said in mock horrified voice "How will you cope without MN for a whole week?"

Smithfield, just read your last post! What a horrible amount of neglect from your parents!!! And then a horrible amount of control. I can't imagine the brain of a baby developing emotionally properly with that little interaction with parents! My therapist goes on about this stuff all the time and shows me plastic models of brains etc and goes on about "attachment disorder" - have you heard of this?

Anyway I can see that you have been a MUCH better parent to your children than your parents were! And without having had role models. That is a big achievement.

AN- Have a lovely trip!

---

feeling a bit better this morning after finding this thread amongst others along the same lines

What Im experiencing with ds'is'normal and just part of his development.

I guess feeling like I cause his behaviour again goes back to childhood, where I felt like I had the power to alter my parents reactions or moods with just one word or action.

I just need to learn to handle it better and not take it personally. Most of the time I think I do handle it. Try and let him have control over small things that dont matter and stand my ground with important stuff. But it is a constant battleground atm. I am exhausted also and Im not up to par because of the emotional stress and pnd, so I am just going to have to be easier on myself I think.

At least it is a clear day today and hopefully we can get out to the park. And dh is going to try and get work finished so he can perhaps have bank holiday monday off.
Feel like I could sleep for a week atm.

Smithfield, this is MY DD, EXACTLY!:

"His needs dont stop and nothing I do is good enough"..."fetched something for ds, and it is not good enough, he is on to the next thing he wants, or the thing he asked for isnt right in some way"..."crying out for my attention and I just dont have anything to give him at the moment"
She seems to want something else every few seconds and can't wait for it and if I say no she starts shouting/crying like a spoilt brat. She doesn't stop talking drivel ALL day and expects an answer and will repeat herself over and over again until I say something. She is ungrateful. If I take her out somewhere, before that trip has ended she is asking me where we are going/what we are doing next. If I buy her something she asks for something else a few minutes later. She makes me crazy. Earlier I snapped and shouted "You spoilt brat" at her which I know is wrong. Sometimes I think she is doing it because I don't give her enough attention, so I try giving her lots of attention, but the more I give her, the more she wants and the more demanding she gets , so this doesn't seem to work either!

OnePlusOne, I often feel this "pure rage and hatred towards DD" like you said! The things that come into my head that I want to shout at her are terrible! I think your method of writing a load of venom (not to send) to the originators of all my rage will probably help, it's encouraging that it helped you. In my case it is partly my brother she reminds me of (never leaving me alone) and partly my parents (not giving me enough attention, yet when I give DD lots of attention she is still ungrateful and this drives me wild). I seem to put off writing these venomous letters and doing my anger release techniques, partly because it feels uncomfortable/scary and partly because I only feel safe to do it if I am alone in the house which isn't very often. I will have to make it a ritual to do a bit of this each time I have a 'day off' on my own and in time hopefully the rage will lessen. It is probably a gradual process.

OnePlusOne, I don't regret having my DCs, but I never fully knew I would find being a mother so hard. I think my problem is the opposite - that I really WANTED children but I think I 'romanticised' what it would be like and had very idealistic views on how I would do it and I have failed to live up to my expectations of what a good mother I intended to be! When the children make me feel like I've failed in this by behaving really badly I think this also makes me angry. Being a crap parent seems like a huge crime to me because of my experiences so when I feel I am failing at it I really feel a failure and get depressed and feel like withdrawing and giving up.

Therapist was talking about being a "good ENOUGH parent" the other day. I think this is a common topic for therapists. Having children is HARD and we will be constantly dissappointed in our abilities if we expect to be perfect at it! We need to get this in our heads! It is hard when we are so scared that the slightest mistake means we are turning into our parents!

Smithfield, you said you think it is just typical 3 year old behaviour. Well my DD is 5 and has been getting worse since she was 3. My DS is 3 and he is NOT like this. He has different 'problems'. So maybe it is just different personalities they are born with (and not necessarily our fault). Although was DS your first? DD was my first and because I was so determined not to make the same mistakes of my parents and not to neglect her I wouldn't let her cry for more than a few seconds as a baby before I would attend to her and make sure she had absolutely everything she wanted. I got really good at knowing exactly what she wanted and how she wanted it, just to make sure she didn't cry because I couldn't stand it. While we just had her I gave her loads of attention and provided loads of activities for her. Did I teach her to expect perfection?! Maybe I went to far the other way (from my parents' extreme to the other) and maybe this is also wrong! Therapist has said to me several times (about different things not just children) to try to find a moderate way in between! When we had DS he didn't get as much attention because there wasn't physically enough time to give him the same amount with 2 to look after. He cured me of my crying phobia because he cried day and night for 13 months. I learned to 'tolerate' SOME crying before I had to jump up and bust a gut to find out what would please him (Maybe I was scared of them expressing themselves because this was alien to me having never expressed myself much. When they cried I thought this must mean they were feeling REALLY terrible, not just their way of saying eg I could do with some more milk please. DS always had to play on his own more than DD and now he is much better at playing independently. He isn't on at me the whole time like DD, but he does still cry at the slightest thing.
Writing this is really helping me clarify my thoughts about my kids, thank you for starting it you two!

I've been trying a different technique with DD this morning. I feel I have so much housework type stuff to do and she keeps interrupting me and asking me to do things. I feel like shouting "I am not here just to do what you want, I have my own stuff to do which I'm panicking about getting it all done as it is, now bugger off and leave me alone and don't even talk to me". But I can see this would be wrong. So she asks me for something and I say "I can't do it now but I will tell you when I am ready in between my jobs and do it for you then". If she starts tantrumming I say "If you shout about it I won't do it at all, you have to wait". Then when I feel I could pause for a moment between jobs I say "I'm ready, what would you like me to do?" and do it quickly before carrying on with my stuff. It seems to feel better because I feel more in control and less rushed and forced to do what she wants, yet she is still getting SOME attention in between my work.

Going back to the parental visit thing. I don't want to make anyone doubt their" decisions because of what I am doing (seeing mine a bit*, but less often). It sounds like your parents still behave abusively towards you when you see them now and they should not be allowed to get away with this so staying away sounds like the right thing. It is different with my parents because they are actually nice to me and the DCs when we see them, it is just their ignoring of my feelings and pretending nothing bad ever happened which winds me up, and the fact that seeing them reminds me of the past and that doesn't feel good. If they were outwardly treating me badly and doing it in front of the children, giving them role models of how to treat people badly then I would think a lot differently about having contact! I am not being strong by seeing them I don't think as the true reason is that I am scared to go against DH by not seeing them and also I am too weak to cope with the guilt of hurting them (even though they hurt me much worse than I think it would hurt them) and scared of them reacting angrily towards me. I feel I am being a bit stronger than before but not totally strong. Still it is better than doing nothing about it.

Anyway I must go and prepare the final bits for the holiday before I panic that I'm not prepared enough. I have a problem getting out of the house as it is because I feel I must prepare in every little way otherwise something awful might happen. I'm so anxious about keeping the children safe. I can't relax. I'm so scared generally of bad things happening to them and me not even knowing! (like my parents didn't know, or chose not to know). I'm hypervigilant. It is SO tiring. I feel like I find everything twice as hard as 'normal' people because I am so anxious. I feel if anything tiny happens to them it will be ALL MY FAULT and UNFORGIVEABLE. I know this is probably unrealistic but I seem to think in an "all or nothing" way and it is something I have to work on. Is this what makes some parents really controlling? I feel like I want to over control my children because if I can control them I feel I can keep them safe more easily. Do some parents do it because they care?

'See' you all when I get back xxx

An- I know you wont read this until you get back but you have absolutely nailed my feelings entirely. So thankyou for helping me clarify my own thoughts;

'I don't regret having my DCs, but I never fully knew I would find being a mother so hard. I think my problem is the opposite - that I really WANTED children but I think I 'romanticised' what it would be like and had very idealistic views on how I would do it and I have failed to live up to my expectations of what a good mother I intended to be! When the children make me feel like I've failed in this by behaving really badly I think this also makes me angry. Being a crap parent seems like a huge crime to me because of my experiences so when I feel I am failing at it I really feel a failure and get depressed and feel like withdrawing and giving up. '

This is me 100%.

And yes maybe ds being the first, he did get more attention and I do worry I am spoiling him.
Your dd sounds very similar but I do think from 3 'onwards' they do start pushing the boundaries continually.
I relate to what you're saying about the second child not getting as much attention. DD is just this content little angel that gets half forgotten and its hard for me not to gravitate towards her and lavish her with affection when she is just so much easier to deal with.

I dont think the term PFB (precious first born ) exists on MN for nothing .

Anyway...we do have to be easier on ourselves but it 'is' our job to provide boundaries and it is kinder to set them than not because otherwise they will have difficulties in all relationships. I need to be a bit stronger with this.

I think the way you dealt with dd was great btw. I will have to try that myself. I think ds does need a few more boundaries.

The frustrating thing is I do believe some of this occurred when MIL had ds so much. She didnt want ds to feel 'frustrated' ever. and constantly played with him and ran around after him. She also made it feel like a competition between us, both of us vying to meet ds' needs so we could come first in his affections. At least that is how it felt.
Anyway that just makes me more determined she will not have the responsibility of child care anymore.

oneplusone- It occured to me that some of your past resentment toward dd could perhaps be because your mother was able to show her the affection you never had from her.
I remember you describing your mother rushing passed you to get to dd.
Maybe this reminded you of your mother giving the love to your sisters she couldnt give to you.

Hi Everyone, Atilla suggested I post this here as DP's mum seems to be toxic.

DPs mum and her sister are very close and their kids have pretty much all been brought up together between the two (so all like brothers and sisters really). One of the girls died (DPs cousin) when she had a baby. He's now a lovely toddler and as DPs mum can't have kids anymore (miscarriages a few years ago with her new husband) she sort of tries to make the toddler her son IYSWIM. He's totally spoilt which is fair as he has no mum.

However, she tries to make their 'bond' into a big deal. She lets him run riot at hers because she's 'fun' and she REALLy winds him up.

We are very close to the toddler and used to mind him a lot before we had our DS. Not as much as her though.

When our DS was born, the toddler loved him, but she kept making a big deal to the toddler about 'I'm holding a NEW baby. Awwwww.' and trying to make him jealous. If the toddlers nana (who is pretty much his mum now) held our baby, MIL would be like 'Nana's got a new baby now ha ha.' to make him upset.

Then he got weird about our baby and didn't want to touch him anymore. At first he wanted to cuddle him all the time, and loved him to bits.

The other day MIL was minding DS. I have made it clear in the past that I'd rather she not have them together as the toddler is a real handful now and my baby has bad reflux so he'll just randomly choke so he's quite hands-on as well. Plus I know she winds the toddler up until he really doesn't want my baby there. She also lets him touch my baby's mouth or put his dummy in with his dirty hands because he's always digging in the garden or putting his hands all over the car and he gets messy. She lets him share DS's dummy,too which I don't like as DS is only 14 weeks old.

However, the other day when I turned up for SIL to mind the baby (she'd asked to do so, and she lives with mil) when I got there MIL had made sure she had the toddler as obviously she was feeling left out not being centre of attention as she always likes to be.

When I returned she told me that when the toddler woke up he wouldn't go near DS and he was shouting at him to go away. He wouldn't let MIL or SIL near the baby and he kept cuddling MIL. She said she was really very happy about this as she likes him to cuddle her.

WTF?

Also, she whinges that she doesn't have DS often (I've never stopped her), so I told her she can have him any time she wants, and she just has to let me know, but I'd definately like her to have him this week as he's getting clingy with me and I don't want that to happen.

So she said 'I've got toddler tomorrow, but I will have him one of the days this week, I'll let you know'. Then she didn't!

She HATES that I'm his mum as she wants to be I think and she wants to be cente of attention all the time. I think with the toddler because the paper follows him and his progress because of what happened to his mum, he's always centre of attention, the town love him and ev everyone wants to share him, she likes being close to him so that she's in the limelight.

She buys things like bibs and presents for the toddler despite the fact his nana and grandad who have him now are rich. She keeps loads of things at her house for him including a bed, loads of toys, a travel cot, all his nappies, wipes, his own cupboard of food etc. She has NOTHING for DS and never buys him anything, not even a bib or some nappies when we have NO money at all and we're sturggling. We get by, and son never goes without, we do, but it'd be nice if she treated them the same. DP asked her if she could buy DS some nappies as we were running out and had no money for a few days and she said No,so my mum got them for him.

She hates my mum having anything to do with DS and she sulked at his christening because she wasn't centre of attention, or being treated as his mum.

She always tries to make it difficult when it comes to our wedding, and I think she sees me as a threat.

So what does everyone think?

**just to add a little on-
She treats DP like he means nothing to her sometimes, she's never willing to go out of her way for him like mums do. Say he wanted to borrow something she'd instantly say no even if she wasn't using it. She got a pool for her garden and because he went in it twice, she told him he had to buy her a heated cover for it. He's always searching for approval from her so he said 'ok then' and I said 'How exactly? No money for nappies but you're going to magic some for a heated pool cover?' and she got embarressed and started laughing saying 'That's funny'. I don't get it.

Hi G2B- Your mil sounds a bit narcisstic to me. I say this as that is what I believe my mother to be and I see a lot of similarities in what you describe as you Mil's behaviour.

My mum doesnt so anything unless there is something in it for her and she likes to be in control and centre stage.

So I do know where you are coming from having dealt with this personality all my life.

The person my heart really goes out to though is you DP, because he probably had this kind of treatment even as a child. I suspect as a kid he often had to meet his mothers needs rather than the other way around.

Is your husband aware of his mother and the way she behaves. Does he have insight into her impact on him?

The only thing you can do is keep your distance from your MIL and I certainly wouldnt give her responsibility for childcare as her actions show she cant be trusted and that she is not prepared to caretake your ds' needs adequately.
Do not 'expect' anything from her because she is unlikely to change.

There is a good book called 'Toxic In-laws', and you could suggest your dp read 'Toxic Parents', it might open his eyes to his relationship with his own mother.

Hi all, just need to get some random thoughts out of my head, please feel free to ignore.

My sister came over yesterday. She is planning on ttc later this year and hoping to have a baby next summer. My other sister, the youngest one had her first baby earlier this year. If my middle sister has her baby next summer (if all goes according to her plan) then their children will be around a year apart. Both my sisters live very close to each other whereas I live at least an hour's drive away from both of them. I know this sounds very selfish, but I don't want my middle sister to have a baby next summer and I am secretly thinking of things to say to her to try and get her to wait a bit before ttc. There are some genuine reasons why i think she should wait but the real reason is that i don't want my sisters to have babies that are so close to each other in age. I know I will feel very upset and left out as I know they will be doing things together, especially as they live so close to each other, and their children will grow up together and also probably be very close. It will be just like when we were growing up, my 2 sisters were always together and doing things together and had some mutual friends etc whilst i was always out on my own, excluded from their little twosome and it always hurt me so much. I know i will feel that hurt all over again if my middle sister has a baby next year, i don't think i can bear to go through all that pain again. I have talked to my sisters about how upset i used to get at the way they always left me out when we were children but i don't think that anything will change now that we're all adults. I know it's partly simply due to the much bigger age gap between me and them and the fact they live very near to each other, but i know that is a 'rationalisation' on my part and i know that for me trying to rationalise away my true feelings does no good whatsoever, i just end up feeling tense and angry and become ill.

So i am just going to say it, i don't want my middle sister to have a baby next year because i know i will end up feeling hurt and upset and left out all over again when my 2 sisters take their kids to the park together and do 'baby' things together, without me, just like when we were younger. I almost feel like cutting off contact with them for this sole reason as i think the pain i will feel when that happens will be too much. I'd rather just not be in contact with them and what i don't know can't hurt me. But that is not a realistic option and would ultimately cause more pain in itself i think. But i can feel myself getting tense and upset about the thought of how i will probably feel next year if my middle sister does have a baby which is ridiculous. And yet it is not ridiculous, i know that i need to take my feelings seriously, something i am slowly learning to do. But i don't know what to do with these feelings, i don't know if i should talk to my sister(s), i know there would be no point in doing that.

I can just see this pattern continuing throughout my whole life, my sisters will always be doing things at roughly the same time and i will always be left out. My DC's are already 5 and 2 so will be a lot older than their cousins and so it will always be harder for me to plan to do things with my sisters as the children will all be at very different stages. I know i should find a way to deal with this issue but i can't seem to do it. I also feel sorry for my DC's as rhey will not be that close to their cousins, whereas my 2 sisters' children i am sure will be a lot closer and so the pattern will continue even in their generation.

The only thing that makes me feel better is knowing that my younger sister is very close to her sister in law who already has children and so even once my middle sister has children the other sister may not spent that much time with her as she is close to other people as well. My middle sister is also trying to move house and will be a bit further away from the other sister if she does manage to move. But the move may not happen as they are having problems selling their flat. I found myself subtly asking middle sisters DH yesterday questions about their potential house move and trying to gauge how likely it may be. And he mentioned perhaps moving abroad for a few years and i was secretly pleased as although it would mean i wouldn't see my sister as much, at least it would 'split' her up from the younger sister and they wouldn't be together doing things without me.

I feel ashamed for thinking all these things, it seems very selfish, but i really don't think i can go through all that pain again, of feeling left out and like i was the 'odd one out'.

The trouble is my middle sister seems almost tied to my youngest sister's 'apron strings' and just seems to follow her about everywhere and tries to copy her in whatever she does, down to where she chooses to live and even the type of flat she bought. And she has always done this, from childhood, even though she is 3 years older than the youngest sister, the youngest sister has always led the way and the middle sister just seems to follow and copy her. Meanwhile i have always done my own thing and had my own friends and have never copied or followed either of them in any way, but at the same time i have always felt left out when they did things together, went on holidays together, socialised together, studied near each other etc etc. I want to leave behind those feelings but am finding it really hard to do.

I suppose i have made the first step on here, by becoming conscious of my feelings and making them a reality by posting on here instead of having all these 'secret' thoughts and feelings in my head and feeling guilty and ashamed about them. Thank God for MN!

This issue with my sisters has dictated so much of my adult behaviour. Eg, i would NEVER consider having a 3rd DC for fear of recreating my childhood situation ie two's company, three's a crowd. Even though i know my mother had a lot to do with the problem and it wasn't just due to the age gap or my 2 younger sisters just being 'naturally' close. I deliberately chose not to have a bigger age gap between my DC's even though a bigger age gap would probably have been better for me in terms of my health both physical and emotional.

I think this shows how deeply i was hurt as a child by the exclusion and being left out and it's another thing i hate my mother for. She was in a position to see that NONE of us felt left out; she could have taught us all as we were growing up to be considerate of each other's feelings and make sure we all included each other where ever possible. But she did nothing of the sort and she in fact created the gap between me and my sisters.