"But we took you to stately homes" - Part 4

[oneplusone]

Can't beleive we're onto part 4, although i can't see this thread ever dying.

I was just reading through past posts to try and catch up on the months i have missed and something somebody said has triggered something for me. I know my mother didn't bond with me or love me and i think part of the reason why was because she thought i took after my dad whom she hates (although she is too gutless to leave him). I remember when i was young her saying things like my hair was like my dad's but she wouldn't say it an affectionate way, but quite a venomous way and it always made me feel uncomfortable when she said that but i must have been too young to figure out why.

The more i realise about my mother the more i despise and hate her. I remember she used to play hide and seek with me when i was very young, about 3. Only she would 'really' hide in a place i would never be able to find her. I remember crying and feeling completely distressed one time as i thought she had gone and left me alone at home. It was only after i had been crying for some time that she jumped out laughing from her hiding place. What a nasty, cruel, ugly piece of work and she parades around looking as if butter wouldn't melt and she has a lot of people fooled including my 2 sisters. I know my dad can see her for what she is which is why she hates him and i can see her true colours too which is why i hate her.

I know inside she is deeply insecure, lacks intelligence, strength and integrity. I have witnessed her lie, manipulate and cheat to get what she wants and the people to whom she lies and those who she manipulates are us, her own family. I just can't beleive my sisters cannot see through her, they are totally blind and deaf to her true character and have completely fallen for the victim role she has carved out for herself.

Cutting off my parents was the best thing i ever did and i have realised i need to set some boundaries with my sisters, my last remaining friend and even DH. How to do that is another thing, something completely new to me.

Can I ask what people think about just having a couple of counselling sessions? I've only had 2 sessions but already I feel so much better. I think I just needed to tell someone in RL, to be able to say it and express my grief without embarrassing them or making them feel uncomfortable or shocked, or put upon. And now that I've done that, I kind of feel like I've got it out of my system. She gave me a couple of anger exercises to do which are working really well - allowing myself to feel it, realising it's happening, which calms me down before I explode, and recording it in a diary. The fact that I have to record it has really helped make me conscious of it and has enabled me to be in control of it.

I just feel so much more positive and like I don't need counselling any more, but after 2 sessions, am I kidding myself? I have done lots of reading and think I have spent this year recognising and coming to terms with the fact that I had no real mother relationship, so I didn't need a counsellor to help me through that, I recognised it myself and perhaps I'm coming to the end of that process? Or am I kidding myself? Any views gratefully received!

Imnotmamag I don't think you can forgive your mother if you haven't worked through the grief.

I thought I'd forgiven mine about 20 years ago when I first realised that I'd come from a dysfunctional family. But it was just another form of denial in my case and I suspect it would be in yours. Forgiveness can't be forced, you'll know when you're ready. If you don't feel sure about forgiving, then you're probably not ready IMO (but it's only MO!)

LittleBella, it's amazing if you feel better after only 2 sessions! Who are we to say that can't happen! I keep saying to my Therapist "I'll just book a couple more sessions and by then I will be cured" and he just laughs at me as though I'm being really naive. It has become a joke between us now.

What books did you read? At the moment I'm looking for books which help me have a better attitude in parenting my own children, any recommendations? Anyone?

AN, I've read quite a few, but the ones which stick in my mind as being turning points for me, were Toxic Parents by Susan Forward, which forced me to actually acknowledge my childhood experience, and [=Beverley Engel's Breaking the Cycle of Abuse I also read an Alice Miller, had done a couple of parenting courses and of course Mumsnet!

I think I kind of knew all the parenting bits - (you're the adult, s/he's the child) from MN and parenting classes and books etc., in theory, but for the first time I've actually begun to experience that emotionally as well as rationally.

I guess it helped that I've been MNetting for about 3 years and had done so much reading etc., and when it came to the counselling, it wasn't the beginning of the process for me, it has happened I hope when I'm actually quite far down the path - I kind of had to be quite far down in order to convince myself to go to counselling, as I was always quite resistant to the idea before.

Oh and I can't stress enough the importance of Mumsnet. Not just these stately homes threads, but over the last 3 or 4 years, the behaviour/ development, parenting, relationships etc. threads. It's introduced me to a world where parents actually consider their children full human beings, with all the needs and responsibility for looking after them that that entails and without it I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have got this far. It's simply opened my eyes in a way no other medium could have done, because it's real people talking about their real children, not a theoretical proposition. It has quite literally changed my life.

Sorry guys, I hope you don't think me rude but I had to let DH have the computer for something last night.

I do feel very angry and bitter and sad at what she did and the effects in then had on me but being bitter isn't a nice characteristic, is it?

Simply, my mother gave me up, several times, usually because of a bloke, wanted me when others wanted to adopt me/give me a home but didn't want to know when I was in children's homes/very unhappy foster placements. I know she didn't have the best time with her parents and step mother but why crap on my life too? I could justify until the cows came home all the things she has done and continues to try and do, but that's my psychology training and it doesn't make it right or easier to live with.

It has also been suggested that I forgive the man who sexually abused me as that isn't healthy to hate him forever.

Hi all, feeling quite down right now. I have been struggling to pinpoint exactly why DH upsets me so much and I have suddenly now realised that it is his complete lack of loyalty towards me. He let slip during a recent argument that he has been slagging me off to his friends and if we got divorced none of them would be surprised and would think he is better off without me.

I don't know why it's taken so long for me to realise the significance of what he did. He knows more than anyone what I have been going through the last couple of years, how down I have been at times, how my eczema has affected me, how I have struggled to cope with looking after our DC's on my own with no help or support from anyone. It is because of the immense strain, pressure and stress I have been under that I have not been able to be a supportive wife to him and we have had arguments because of my moods etc. But he has known all along what is behind my behaviour and he seems to have absolutely no sympathy compassion or understanding for me.

He is simply aggreived for himself that because I have been consumed with my own problems and looking after the kids, I have had little or no time or energy left for him. On the one hand I can understand him feeling bitter and upset and resentful towards me as he has had no support from me over the last few years, and instead he has had to support me a lot, but I feel so upset that he has been criticising me to his friends to the point where they feel sorry for him that he is stuck with me.

I just don't know what to do anymore. My relationship with my sisters has fallen at the first hurdle. They are concerned and worried about our mother and don't seem to give two hoots about me; I suspect they don't like the fact that I have no sympathy for our mother and i know that ultimately their loyalties lie with our parents, not with me.

So, it boils down to the fact that I am completely and utterly alone in this world. There is nobody who seems to have any respect for me, for who I am, for what I have been through and how much courage and strength it has taken to survive thus far.

Sakura, I totally relate to what you said in one of your posts. You said that you would probably stay with your husband for the sake of the DC's and then split up when they were older. That is exactly what i have been thinking myself. And i find myself getting excited at the thought of regaining my freedom, even if it won't be for another 20 years or so (once the DC's have left home). The thought of being able to do what I want, when I want, not having to consider anyone else but myself fills me with happiness and excitement. Of course I will always be there for my DC's, but they will be busy with their own lives once they are adults.

Perhaps that is the only way I can get through this, by holding onto the thought that one day I will be free. In the meantime I will make attempts to resolve things with DH, but he seems to be proving himself to a narcissist, just like my parents and sisters. I can't change him, the only way he will change is if he gains some insight into himself and then change will happen almost automatically.

I feel totally alone in the world as I have no family (other than my 3 kids) but know my DH is behind me 100%. It is so demoralising what your H has done to you and I feel it is a big deal and not something you are going to get over or be able to dismiss just like that.

oneplusone, has your DH's behaviour towards you got worse as you've "got better"?

Hi mamaG and littlebella.

I definately cannot dismiss what DH has done. I will have to talk to him about it, and I suppose I will decide what to do depending on what he has to say for himself. The only positive thing is that whenever I have spoken to DH in the past, he is willing to listen and will go away and think about what I have said. I feel like he has stabbed me in the back, like I'm 'sleeping with the enemy'.

I don't think DH's behaviour towards me has got worse as I've got better. I think what has happened is that I am now so much more aware of when I'm being mistreated/abused/disrespected. I am able to recognise this type of behaviour towards me whereas before, I guess i was so numb, I couldn't feel anything. If someone said something nasty to me, it just didn't seem to register with me, weird I know, but it's the truth.

I suppose DH must be a bit at the fact that I am now standing up for myself whenever he has a dig at me and pulling him up on it each and every time. Before, it probably seemed to him as if he could say anything to me and get away with it, which he could. I don't know how DH feels about the change in me, especially as I'm sure he married me in the first place because he sensed I would not stand up for myself.

He needs to adjust to the 'new me', but I don't know whether he is capable of doing that. As long as I no longer let him get away with treating me badly, he will soon realise he has to change.

My hubby loves it now I am much better. He suffered a lot when I was really low but he stuck by me, he even turned down looking for another job as I needed him around the same as he has been. I just want everyone to have the support I am so lucky and grateful to have. I mean, FGS he just hoovered up a spider the size of a flipping saucer for me.

LittleBella, thank you for the reading advice, I will definitely follow it up.

NotMamaG, Whoever told you to forgive the sexual abuser can fuck right off! Why the hell should you? Would you forgive yourself if you did that to someone?

OnePlusOne, things sound really difficult for you at the moment! Your DH should not be slagging you off to other people and always taking other people's side against you. It sounds like he doesn't make you feel he is on your side and having nobody on your side makes you feel alone.

We on MN are on your side and respect you. Can you meet new people in RL who make you feel good? This is hard work and scary but worth it.

My DH got to a point during the last couple of years where he just could not take any more of having to help me with my problems and getting little in return. He felt alone and sad because of it. I decided to give him a long break from my problems, I just knocked it off his list of roles and talked to my therapist, friends and now MN as well about my problems instead of to him. I think that is why we are still together.

I simplified our relationship so that I focussed on it mainly being for companionship and sex and just tried to make our time together enjoyable in a fairly shallow way. I gradually found small ways to make him feel more loved and wanted and it has made him do it back (so it is an investment worth making). I feel we have slowly come back from the brink and are becoming happier with each other. He has even started talking to me a bit about my family stuff with no pressure to from me.

Could this type of thing work for you?

I have very few RL friends and it is't really something you talk about it on the school run. Is such a long time ago I am sure people think I should be over it.

How can I get over my parents not wanting me and someone abusing me?

Oneplus, have nothing helpful to say except that the situation with your DH is not really surprising. It's the same phenomenon that quite often happens when alcoholics sober up - their partner, who has been the martyred enabler for years, pitied and admired by everyone for putting up with the dreadful drunk, leaves because s/he cannot adapt to a partner who has actually taken control of their life and upset the dynamic of the relationship. For many couples, after the struggle of the partner with "The Problem" dumping the problem, it's the beginning of a new struggle to re-negotiate a new relationship, but some do manage it and maybe you and your DH will, if he loves you for yourself. It sounds as though you don't think he does though.

I'mnotmamaG, have you tried counselling? It sounds like you're in desperate need of someone in RL to talk to.

I have had it before but it didn't help.

Next month I have an appointment to see a pych and I will have to tell him everything and I am really scared.

NotMamaG, I still think Therapy could work for you if you find a therapist that suits you. Before you 'give up on yourself' can you honestly say you have tried everything - therapy, books, building new relationships, MN and more and more MN, new 'hobbies', doing more of any little thing that gives you enjoyment.

Maybe we have to accept that we will NEVER completely get over the things that have happened and will always have some underlying sadness which we must learn to cope with and seek out more and more little things (I think it is the smallest things that are most important) which give us some happiness and enjoyment and get as many of them into each day as possible otherwise you won't see much point in living.

Don't let the bastards who hurt you 'win' by ruining your whole life.

Hi MamaG,

Would agree with all of AN's post.

I remember something that Tricia Goddard once said about counsellors. She said that, "counsellors are like shoes, you need to find one that fits".

Just had my friend's two DCs (5 and 3 same ages as my two) here overnight (5pm til 10am) so she could have time with her DH, and feel proud of myself that I did cope but it highlighted my anxiety again.

Things went well and I feel I did things 'properly' eg when the little ones were having 'sharing issues' I taught them how to share, and most people would probably feel good about their visit and even have enjoyed it and seen the positive side about how good it is for your children to have social contact etc. But not me!

I'm anxious about looking after my own DCs and so twice as anxious with another 2 more! I worried about every little thing, didn't relax, got moody with DH (who was helping me in his own way), and found the whole thing so tiring and stressful that I feel angry that I 'had to' do it and don't feel like doing it again. I just think "I can't do this, I can't cope, I'm not adult enough for this responsibility, I'm going to fail, I'm going to look stupid, people will be angry with me, I want to be alone and hide".

DH was telling me off for being tense and when one of the children cried and I was about to jump up to sort it out, DH grabbed me and restrained me and told me to relax and not panic and let him cry a bit. I had a really violent reaction and felt consumed by fury. I shouted at DH and was about to hit him, hard, I could feel the force in myself. He blocked the punch and it was just enough time for me to think and control myself so I didn't try to get around the block and hit him again. It really shocked me because this is very unusual for me.

It was like on the very few couple of occassions in the past when I have lost it and been violent (to other people) and it was a strange sensation, just seeing my fist going towards him as though I'm watching myself do it but it isn't me and I have no control.

I know it was partly a trigger because I know that being restrained is one of my triggers. It was also due to the high level of anxiety and stress I was feeling unneccessarily. In the moment I was thinking "he is stopping me looking after my children and I must look after them at all costs", as well as my brother being in the back of my mind.

DH thinks that if I sort out my anxiety then that would sort out a lot of my problems.

So does anyone know any good books for anxiety?

Thank you for the article oneplusone. It was an interesting article and I totally agree that there has been an acculmutave history of child abuse, and I agree that children are used as 'poison containers' to hold the family together (just like we were)
But unfortunately I found it had skewed view of eastern cultures, so I just want to say- be wary of what you believe:

"Childhood in contemporary Japan, although somewhat more Western than that of other Eastern nations, still includes masturbation by mothers "to put them to sleep." Parents usually have intercourse with the children in bed with them, and "co-sleeping," with parents physically embracing the child, often continues until the child is ten or fifteen."

Obviously none of this is true. If this ever did happen it would be considered just as shocking as it would be in Britain. Co-sleeping does exist here in Japan until around age three, and this practice is obviously frowned upon by this author, but then some people would say its barbaric to put a tiny baby in a room alone all night.

But on the whole the author is absolutely right about most societies being founded on the the abuse and disregard for children.

Sorry if my post sounded abrupt I just read it through and I know it did. I suppose just got a bit irritated because he wrote about the country that I'm raising my child in as though it was so backward compared to Western countries when, really, it isn't, but you'd have to live here to know IYSWIM

Oneplusone, I can totally relate to the feeling of waiting to be free one day. You've just put it into words, really! I feel ashamed really- maybe DH deserves someone else who will love him forever. And maybe I will love him forever, but he drains me TBH, and I met him when I was in a very bad place. And he's not very loyal to me, and actually I feel that he doesn't even really see me. I am his "wife" who he looks after, provides for (and pats himself on the back for doing so), but he doesn't see the gregarious, arty, eccentric person I am. He focuses in on my bad points and mushrooms then but he never sees my bad points. Don't know if I can live like this forever!! But there are worse marriages, and theres nothing I can place my finger on, and I'd be an idiot to rip DD away from him and raise her as a single mother just for some 'ideal' I have of happiness. SO I'm just waiting it out, waiting to see...

he never sees my good points

Something I discussed with the counsellor and just wanted to share in case it rings any bells with anyone else: I have always been a total slob, utterly out of control re housework. I'm probably one of the few women in the country who lived with a man who actually did more housework than me. It wasn't me complaining about having to pick up his dirty clothes, it was him complaining about picking up mine. I simply could never get to grips with it. I would always be late for everything because I couldn't find the things I needed for the appointment. I have spent literally days of my life looking for missing keys, books, clothes, whatever. I've broken high cost items (GHD hair straighteners, cameras, pictures) by treading on them because I didn't see them under the piles of crap. One of my triggers for rage, was the sight of a filthy house. It made me feel agitated, angry, out of control. I felt like that frequently!

Since seeing the counsellor and feeling "better", my house has been tidy. Without me having to think about it. Suddenly, I've just started to put things back in the cupboards, pick up bits of clothing dropped on the floor, put books back on the shelves, insist that the chidlren are not allowed to watch TV until they have picked up and put away all toys, books and clothes. It's astonishing. It feels like a bloody miracle. In the last 2 or 3 years I've begun to have a semblance of orderliness, but I've always found it an incredibly hard slog to keep order, doing housework all evening and not having leisure. If I didn't spend hours cleaning it, the place was a tip. Now suddenly, it's easy. What the hell has happened?

Spoke to a friend about it and she said it's because I've taken control of my life and therefore my environment. Also that I no longer tolerate my surroundings being so uncomfortable, chaotic, disorderly as I feel I deserve better. No rage about it either. It has taken me over 40 years to just be normal and not be surrounded by total chaos.

Sorry for sounding like a Stepford Wife.

Totally know what you mean LittleBella. My husband (a Japanese man!) is better at housework than me! HE'll just automatically tidy up. I'm graduallly getting better since doing all this emotional work.
My mother was exactly the same. She was a terrible terrible housekeeper but she projected that onto me. I was the only girl and since I was tiny she's always called me a "sloven", that my room was a "pigsty" etc, when in fact the whole house was a tip!
Also, she liked me being rubbish at anything housey because thats how she kept her control. I was never allowed in the kitchen- she never taught me a single thing. Everything I actually know about cleaning I've picked up from working in cafes and restaurants. I used to come home from school somedays and my mother would have had a manic spring clean in my room, thereby "enabling" me to be dependant on her. What she should have done is show me how to look after myself.
SO now, though I don't want DD to think its an extremely important thing for a girl, I want her to see that its important for every human being (man or woman) to clean up their own mess.
I think my mother's mess reflected her own self-loathing TBH. She felt she deserved to live in the mess and chaos perhaps because of something in her past.
I am getting better. I often slip up (I am a SAHM with a 2 year old, so perhaps thats understandable) but I keep trying to remind myself how lovely it feels when the house is clean or the satisfaction I get after seeing a gleaming bathroom.

I get bored with hearing my self talk about it and I am sure others must too. On the surface I have a lot to be happy and grateful about, and I am, but there is that underlying sadness a lot of the time.

I once went to a new counsellor and I would tell her things and then explain why I felt that way. She actually told me I was annoying her by doing that and I wasn't offered another appointment for another year.

I guess I say I feel this way because of that so that they don't think I am completely wicked/mad/sick/strange.