"But we took you to stately homes" - Part 4

[oneplusone]

Can't beleive we're onto part 4, although i can't see this thread ever dying.

I was just reading through past posts to try and catch up on the months i have missed and something somebody said has triggered something for me. I know my mother didn't bond with me or love me and i think part of the reason why was because she thought i took after my dad whom she hates (although she is too gutless to leave him). I remember when i was young her saying things like my hair was like my dad's but she wouldn't say it an affectionate way, but quite a venomous way and it always made me feel uncomfortable when she said that but i must have been too young to figure out why.

The more i realise about my mother the more i despise and hate her. I remember she used to play hide and seek with me when i was very young, about 3. Only she would 'really' hide in a place i would never be able to find her. I remember crying and feeling completely distressed one time as i thought she had gone and left me alone at home. It was only after i had been crying for some time that she jumped out laughing from her hiding place. What a nasty, cruel, ugly piece of work and she parades around looking as if butter wouldn't melt and she has a lot of people fooled including my 2 sisters. I know my dad can see her for what she is which is why she hates him and i can see her true colours too which is why i hate her.

I know inside she is deeply insecure, lacks intelligence, strength and integrity. I have witnessed her lie, manipulate and cheat to get what she wants and the people to whom she lies and those who she manipulates are us, her own family. I just can't beleive my sisters cannot see through her, they are totally blind and deaf to her true character and have completely fallen for the victim role she has carved out for herself.

Cutting off my parents was the best thing i ever did and i have realised i need to set some boundaries with my sisters, my last remaining friend and even DH. How to do that is another thing, something completely new to me.

I think some therapists and councellors are drawn to the job because of their own unresolved issues. A lot of power comes with this particular job because you are dealing with people who have low self esteem. SO I want to say that if a therapist makes you feel rubbish or doubt yourself, then 9 times out of 10 its because they enjoy the power of being able to do that.
There was someone on this thread a while back (perhaps the first one) who had a terrible mother and sister. Truly awful, and- they were both councellors of some kind! I don't think you (or anybody) are inherently strange or stupid or if you are, then we all are! I'm sorry you were made to feel that way by this woman's incompetence.

Hi all. I've realised that the intense pain I was (amd am still) feeling at DH's lack of loyalty towards me was at least partly also due to childhood feelings being triggered. There were many incidents during my childhood when each and every member of my family showed a complete lack of loyalty towards me. In fact there was no loyalty towards me at all when i think about it. Both my parents and sisters have on many occasions shown their complete lack of trust in me, faith in me, and there has been no loyalty shownvtowards me by any of them. I think this must have greatly contributed to my feeling of immense loneliness, like there was nobody in my family who was on my side, who would stand by me, no matter what.

I don't expect that sort of loyalty from DH, I think that is unrealistic as he is bound to have loyalty towards his parents as well as to me, but then on the other hand, should I expect 100% loyalty from DH? I actually think that whilst we are together, he should be loyal to me, even over and above his parents, and if he doesn't feel that way, then he really shouldn't be with me.

I have also realised that, when I feel intense anxiety should one of the DC's wake up crying at night, whilst DH and I still downstairs, this feeling is also a childhood feeling.........from when I was a child who would sometimes wake at night, alone and in the dark wanting my mother, but she was never there. I never once remember my mother comforting me if I woke in the night, I remember one occasion when my dad comforted me, but never my mother. Did they not hear me? Or was I just left to cry? I can't remember, but all I know is the extreme and intense anxiety I feel when my DC's wake up and cry in the night is out of all proportion to the actual event, and it is most certainly my own childhood anxiety in the same situation that i am experiencing.

I really cannot be bothered with my sisters any more. I think I sometimes just call/txt them out of curiosity about what they are doing, especially as my younger sister has recently had a baby so I am interested in how she is managing.....but I wouldn't say I care as such about her and my interest in her does not stem from concern. And the same is true for my middle sister, I am just curious as to what she is doing, her life seems to resemble a car crash in slow motion, but I wouldn't say i actually feel any concern or affection towards either of them.

I don't feel guilty about my feelings towards my sisters, that's the way I feel, I have good reason to feel the way I do, and that's all there is to it. Instead of wasting my time and energy chasing a relationship with them, a relationship which I am beginning to realise will always leave me upset and disappointed, i would be better off building new relationships. A lot easier said than done, but I hope I will be able to follow my own advice and break my attachment to my sisters.

What to do about DH I don't know. Like Sakura, I think I would be worse off as a single mother right now and things aren't so bad as to end the marriage straightaway. I think there is a little bit of hope for us, as DH did make a 'U' turn recently in relation to his mother (ie he agreed with me about her when previously he had completely rejected what I said about her). I guess it's a case of 'better the devil you know than the devil you don't'. I can also, secretly, hold on to the thought that once the DC's have left home, I can get my freedome back. On a superficial level we have a good life and I suppose I can live with that for the time being.

I still have to talk to DH about criticising me to his friends....will have to wait for the right moment to do that.

Littlebella and sakura, I can relate to the total slob thing as well! I am the same, i seem to be hopeless at keeping the house tidy and in some sort of order, whereas DH seems to be excellent at tidying up and putting things away. Our house when we were children was a complete pigsty, stuff everywhere, BOTH my parents were hoarders, so it was a nightmare, too much stuff, far too little space. My mum was hopeless at tidying or organsing or even cleaning. I seem to be the same to a degree, but sometimes I will have a burst of energy and have a big clearout or tidy up, but the day to day stuff just seems too much for me.

I don't why I'm like this, sometimes I feel my mind is always on other things, and it just can't cope with doing this day to day stuff. I manage to do what is really necessary, usually in relation to the DC's, but anything else just gets left. I'm sure this is another reason DH thinks I'm useless and if I tell him that this too is due to my family issues I think he'll kill me! He is fed up of me saying this, that and the other is due to my family stuff, I think he thinks I'm using it as an excuse all the time.

But, I think EVERYTHING is in one way or another down to my family issues. This is why now when i go into bookshops and see all the various self help books about different problems, i think they are all pointless, the only self help book that is needed is one that helps you resolve your childhood issues and once you start doing that, all of your other problems will be sorted out along the way.

NotMamaG, that counsellor was really wrong! The point of them is to make you NOT feel stupid about talking about all your stuff and NOT feel like a bad person and NOT feel like your problems are not important enough, so that you will trust them enough to say it all! It was a long time ago but the problems are still there because you have not been able to express the feelings and process them still. It isn't just about how much things hurt back then but also about how it made you feel about yourself and about life long term. I know that my therapist would never be annoyed because I had explained why I feel a certain way.

The housework thing - I didn't realise this was so common among us! I think some of it is to do with depression. When I had depression I just couldn't make myself do housework. I'm not depressed anymore but still not as motivated about housework as I would like to be. My parents did their housework to an acceptable standard so I didn't get it from them. I do agree that it is something to do with this feeling grown up/or not thing. I think I have been scared to take control of my own life and be in charge of it because responsibility scares me! I'm scared of failing and looking stupid and people being angry with me. So I've tried to avoid responsibility. I think avoiding making it my job to keep the housework up to date was another way of avoiding taking control of my life. I started thinking of approaching it like it was my job because I realised it makes DH feel so much more loved when I do it. He works really hard in a stressful job and provides everything for us and I wasn't doing my fair share. I was neglecting most of the housework and not interacting with the children enough.

Now that I am doing the housework and getting along better with the children, it has worked the other way round and I feel much better about myself and more confident and capable. I keep telling myself I am proud to be a mother of two and a housewife. I keep telling myself I can do this, I'm not a drip, I've been perfectly capable at all the jobs I've done, it's only my confidence which has made me have days when I just feel I can't do it. People who are a lot less intelligent and skilful than me manage to do these normal things so so can I. I WILL be normal. I suppose I still need to work out what exactly I am so scared of getting wrong and what I'm scared will happen if I make a mistake.

My technique for making myself do housework is to make a list but not write anything on it until I've done it. So I do the dishwasher, then write down "dishwasher" and cross it out, then I do some laundry and write down "washing x1 load" and cross it out, etc. Throughout the day I can see a list of things I have managed to do and I feel more and more capable as the list gets longer and it encourages me to do more. I also leave it where DH will see it so he gets the impression I have done lots of work and doesn't feel like he is slaving at his job while I do bugger all at home. I also write down all the things I need to do which aren't housework which I feel I might forget to do (which makes me anxious). It helps me to do them one at a time as well and not feel so overwhelmed. I can look at the list and decide what must be done today and forget the rest if I feel overwhelmed. This task list has really really helped me. Writing anything down seems to help with everything.

Can't think straight to write much as DD is screaming but when I was in a really bad way I fed the kids fish fingers, things out of packets, nuggets, etc and didn't bake so now I am baking and cooking properly again I know I am doing better.

I've watched this wonderfully supportive thread.

I would like to join but I don't feel that the stuff I suffered is nearly as bad as some of the nightmares I read about here.

Hi Kittywise,

Re your comment:-

"I would like to join but I don't feel that the stuff I suffered is nearly as bad as some of the nightmares I read about here".

I can assure you that what you've been through is NO less valid than anybody else's writings on this thread. I would therefore urge you to post on this supportive thread when you are able to.

With best wishes

Attila

I agree with Attila, Kitty. Loads of us said the same thing when we first came on this thread, me included. If you feel you need the support, you need the support, whatever happened or didn't happen.

I think if you have been feeling long term shame, unwantedness, unimportantness, low self esteem, grieving, loss, unworthiness etc the effects of that on people can be similarly bad for everyone even if the causes - the events that happened in childhood, were worse at the time that they happened for some people than others. The people with the worst experiences might have more post trauma and shock but the other things are still really difficult. I hope this makes sense.

Thankyou actingnormal and attila

My problem is with my crazy mother. It took me until I was an adult to realise that I had been/ was being emotionally abused.

20 years on and I'm still fighting the battle and trying to find some compassion in my heart for her.

I spend a lot of my time feeling a general anger I guess like most people on here.

Why are you trying to find compassion for her? If this blocks you from feeling the anger and processing it then it might hinder your recovery. Feeling you have a right to be angry is a big part of eventually feeling better.

ActingNormal, it's because the anger only gets directed towards me, my children and long suffering dp. I could never confront her, she would never listen and never understand.

She is very involved with the kids and they love her.

She has no idea she has done anything wrong.

I am hoping by finding compassion that it will stop this anger.

Sorry to interrupt, but may I say a few words.....

My mother and I have never had an emotionally close relationship. When we are together, I feel so uncomfortable and uneasy. Its like I revert back to being a child when I am with her. She was never intentially cruel like so many on here, but just cold and emotionally detached. I could never really 'talk' to either of my parents (my dad died three years ago). They were quite strict and 'out of touch' when I was growing up. I would never have nice clothes to wear and I had to be in really early, compared to my mates. I started smoking when I was 14/15 and only gave up a few years ago, but lived in fear of my parents ever finding out, which they never did.

I moved out when I was 20 and lived on my own. I had a very 'colourful' 20's and certainly made up for my rather sheltered time living with my parents. At 21 I became pregnant. I knew I could not keep the baby and had an abortion. I remember sitting in the waiting room looking at the mothers supporting their daughters and wishing that was me. I was on my own. I couldn't have even contemplated telling my parents.

At 27, I got pregnant again. Now I was in a better place, I was still on my own, but intended to keep this baby. There was absolutely no way I could go through another abortion. It was the single most horrible day of my life, and I could not contemplate going through it again. I remember the sick feeling in my stomach as I walked round my parents house, absolutely dreading telling them, but knew I had to to get their support. I was 27, but felt so much younger, and knew I was going to feel such shame and rejection. There was just a chance they might turn round and say "don't worry, we will support you".

The reaction was a mixture of "I was dreading you ever coming home and saying this" from my father, to "how can you contemplate having a baby out of a loving relationship" from my mother. "Have an abortion, your aunty had one, it will be o.k". I was sure my mother would have a different reaction.

I will never forgive my parents for their unemotional support. Of course, I am not blaming them for any actions or trouble I have got myself in in my life, and I know I have paid the price. I will never forgive myself either.

I am married now, with three dc's. I am so accutely aware of the importance of positive praise, and acknowledgment of my little one's feelings. I always try to take time to ask them if there is anything wrong, and let them know they can come to be about anything. There are loads of kisses and cuddles and 'i love you's'.

I still feel cold and empty when exchanging pleasentries with my mother now. I feel so distant from her and yet I am her daughter.

God, I wasn't intending to post anything on here...........oh well.

So Kitty have I got this right? - you want to keep your mother in your life for the sake of your children who have a good relationship with her but you don't feel good around her because of the way she treated you. You want to feel ok around her so you want to find compassion because you think that will make you feel better.

Are you saying when you are angry you direct your anger at your DH and DCs because you are scared to ever talk to your mother about it? And you want this anger to stop so that you treat your DH and DCs better?

I put a lot of thought into finding reasons for the way my family behaved and understanding them and finding reasons to forgive them and I did feel a bit better when I understood them better BUT the anger and the hurt didn't go away. I still take it out on DH and DCs (although getting better) and I still had an unhealthy attitude to binge drinking and other men (again, much better recently) and I still take it out on myself in the gym. It is so hard to get the suppressed anger out and it is so hard to make yourself believe you have a right to do this and easier to avoid it by forgiving or denying or distracting.

Would you be able to express your anger on MN a bit by writing about it?

Magsi, it sounds like you didn't bond with your mother as a child (me neither) so although she is still in your life you might feel some loss and grieving for what you didn't have (you didn't have the bond). Not having your parents' support through difficult things makes you feel abandoned and alone and unloved and uncared for. It does sound sad for you.

You sound like you are doing a really good job with your DCs though.

Thankyou Acting Normal, yes i think I would, i guess it will take time Eh?

magsi, I had an abortion in my 20's. Got Pg whilst on th pill, but was on antibiotics. Only saw bf every 2 weeks, so how unlucky was that.? Anyway my mother was similarly unsupportive. 2 Weeks after and I was a mess ( of course) and I was shouted at to pull myself together. She told me that if I decided to go through with the pregnancy she would not support me.

When I announced that i was pg with dc no 6, now bearing in mind I was 38 she asked me how this could happen and tha6t there were ways of 'dealing with it' I have never forgiven her for that and even when i mentioned it to her she denies having said it.

You know it's interesting. I would love a no.7, my biggest fear has been what my mother would say, ffs Now i almost feel like getting pg to SPITE her.
Not a great step admittedly BUT a step in the right direction.

I know what you mean about reverting back to a certain age.I am stuck in my early twenties and behave like a petulant teenagee r a lot of the time.

Ok I'll give you a brief idea of the kind of things she says that I have problems with. She once commented on dd1's beautiful face and eyelashes. dd1 was about 2 at the time
Dp was also there and then she said " I don't know where she gets it from as it's not from you"
Dp and I were literally opened mouthed.
How could your own mother say something like that?

Today it's my birthday. She picks the kids up from school for me. brings a lovely cake, gives me a beautiful and obviously very expensive necklace and write on the present "with much love and admiration"

YOu see I SO want her to be my friend.

If she admires me why does she do this.

I think she is very sad and unhappy that is why she deserves my compassion as one human being to another.

Oh I didn't mean to write all of this. This thread has a strange pull.

About housework- Jean Liedloff in the Continuum Concept (that book has helped me so much BTW), talks about a slob who can'T clean up after himself because he's perpetually waiting for his 'mother' or mother figure to look after him. If he one day actually took it upon himself to clean up properly, it would be like finally admitting that his mother wasn't there for him, that the buck stopped with him. Like finally "growing up" and realising he was alone, and that his mother wasn't there for him.
I think there is an element of this in us. I think it was Smithfield who told me that I should mother myself because I've never been mothered properly. That if I don't do housework oneday, instead of thinking I'm a sloven, I should think that maybe I needed that day to preserve my energies, have a bath, a cup of tea and be good to myself. I know that sounds corny but if we haven't been mothered properly we tend to think we don't deserve to treat ourselves well.
I do think that things like making sure your house is clean, that you have plenty of clean socks and vegetables in the fridge is "mothering" to a certain extent. WE haven't had it, so we don't know how to go about it. And at the end of the day none of it has anything to do with the physical action of cleaning, but it has everything to do with our emotional and mental state.

Magsi, I really hope/think this thread can be of support to you. Don't underestimate the pain inflicted on you by your parents. IT is abuse, and I really shivered to read how your parents refused to acknowledge your adult status. You are an adult now, whether they like it or not, and have been since you were 18.
My father is still shocked that I can drive and can't quite believe it. ALso, many of us came to blows with our parents at big milestones in our lives, like you deciding to keep your baby.
Mine came when I decided to get married. My mother fell out with me in a big way because I wouldn't let her buy the dress (I didn't want to be obligated to her), and from then on did everything in her power, including bad mouthing me to relatives, to try to stop the wedding. She was livid that she just couldn't put the breaks on her "naughty child's" behaviour. She refused to meet my in-laws (who were flying in from abroad), she sent me evil hate-mail about how mentally ill I was. It finally hit me that she didn't love me, not really, not like a mother should. And that she was mentally very sick. My father took her side, as usual, and for the first time in my life even after all the physical and mental abuse I'd suffered, I felt I'd be better off if they were dead!

The reason I say this is because I want to let you know the single most hurtful thing my mother has ever done to me (and there have been LOTS) was not to acknowledge my adult status. That was more soul-destroying than anything and that is what spurred me to cut her out of my life.
SO, the way your parents reacted to your pregnancy was terrible, and not the way loving, compassionate parents would react. So please keep posting.

Message withdrawn

Hi Kittywise,

The card that you received was given primarily for your Mum's benefit - not yours. She wants to buy you and by turn have more emotional control over you.

"I think she is very sad and unhappy that is why she deserves my compassion as one human being to another".

Where's her compassion though towards you?. Toxic people never understand and never take any responsibility for their actions. They don't see that they've actually done anything wrong. If you were to confront her now (and I would not do so yet) she'd likely come out with a laundry list of your own supposed shortcomings. She's been nasty to you in the past (not just to say present) and she has said unplesant things about your children. Why would you actually want someone like that around?. Yes I know she's your Mum but it does not give her carte blanche for you to get emotionally beaten up. You wouldn't put up with it from a friend so why is Mum any different?.

I don't doubt for one minute she is both sad and unhappy but its still no excuse for her to have acted and still act in such a poor manner. People have and make choices. Your Mum has chosen to act like this for reasons only known to her. BUT you haven't caused her to act in such a manner.

Perhaps you should read "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward. Another good one is "When you and your Mother cannot be friends".

BTW how is your relationship with your Dad?.
I only ask as he has not been mentioned.

Anger needs to be expressed, not suppressed.

kittywise, I can relate to your not wanting to feel angry as you don't know how to express this powerful emotion without hurting innocent people. I have been feeling the same way, I know I am angry at certain people in my life but I have been trying not to be angry as I didn't know how to 'feel' and 'release' my anger safely ie without taking it out on undeserving DC's and DH.

I realised I needed both an emotional and physical release so if it's any help to you, this is how I have been expressing my anger and so far it has been working for me. When I have the house to myself I sit down and write a 'no holds barred' letter to whoever it is that has hurt, upset and angered me, (I never send the letter to them) and I find that the act of writing brings my emotions to the surface. And then when i find myself feeling angry, I get my baseball bat (I bought a child's one as an adult baseball bat is HUGE!) and I whack the sofa and pretend my mother/father/sister/DH is sitting on it and I say all the things I want to say to them, give them a good beating, and I honestly feel so much better afterwards. It really works and it means no-one gets hurt and I feel so much calmer around DD, DS and DH.

Just another point about anger and other difficult emotions. I have realised that when I successfully 'feel' my emotions instead of keeping them locked away, as I have been in the habit of doing for so long, I no longer feel the urge to express them to whoever caused them.

I have always felt it was pointless to express my feelings to say, my parents, my sisters or even DH, as I know they will never understand me, their narcissistic qualities means they have no empathy for anyone but themselves. There's a well known phrase that always springs to mind 'You can never change other people, only yourself' and I realise if i was hoping to try and change these people's behaviour by telling them how I felt i was on a hopeless and disappointing mission. But I realise I can now change the way I react to them, I can stand up for myself and not allow myself to be treated badly and this seems to be as effective as if they had changed their behaviour. My self esteem is not damaged and in fact I feel good about myself just by standing up for myself, and none of this involves any change in the other person's behaviour.

I have found it is enough simply for me to feel my own emotions, I feel I have 'integrated' them into myself instead of them being 'split off' from me and I feel more and more 'whole'. Sorry about all the weird sounding jargon, but this is how this process is described in many of the books I have read and I never really understood what they meant until now.

magsi, just a quick point. I think you can in fact blame your parents for mistakes you have made in your life. As a child you needed emotional nourishment in order to grow up as an adult with healthy self-esteem and self confidence. And adult with a good sense of self esteem IMHO, will tend to make good decisions for herself and will ensure she is treated with respect by others. If you do not have this strong foundation to your self of self, it is quite easy to see how you would 'go off the rails' and make poor decisions etc.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and advice. It is nice to have your inner most hurt acknowledged after it has been inside for so long.

I feel almost guilty writing all of this. Like I am disrespecting my mother. I will never tell her how I feel because I wouldn't want to hurt or upset her in any way. the only way I feel I can 'right' the missing affections I felt I never had whilst growing up (and indeed now), is to make sure my own parenting skills include that all important emotional support. Danae, I already do sooooo much baking and cooking with my children, and do manage to turn out the most amazing cakes (sometimes ). I remember my mother cooking in the kitchen, and never being invited to help her or create things with her. I did sometimes make biscuits, but that was always on my own.

Its the simple little things that we take for granted sometimes, that amount to so much. When they are not there, there is deffinitely an emptiness inside. I am replacing some of this emptiness with cooking with my own daughter and sons.

Sakura, I never thought of it like that, about my parents not acknowledging my adult status. I had made my decision to keep the baby (and I would have NEVER approached them if I hadn't). I had always had a longing for a baby to mother, and at last, it came true. But I knew, deep down in the pit of my stomach that my parents would not support me and be happy about it. It took so much courage by me to go round to their house and tell them the news. I could not believe from their reaction that I would have to go through another abortion. Of course, I could not tell them this at the time. I had gone through the first on my own because I could not imagine telling them for fear of the dissappointment.

When she turned round to me and I saw the dissappointment on her face, I knew then I would have to go through it all again. I would not have their emotional support, like I had hoped. She even offererd to take me to the clinic. Of course, I declined and went with a friend. I never felt so alone as I did then and I will never NEVER forgive my parents. Looking back now, when I realise I was 27, I can't quite understand what the problem would have been. Yes, I was living on my own, with two jobs, and no father, but I was prepared to do it.

With my family now, we make sure there are loads of laughs, fun, and happy memories. Most of all, I make sure I make myself approachable for my kids. My poor daughter is only 4 and I am already telling her that she can say anything to mummy, or asking her if anything is bothering her.....poor thing .

Message withdrawn

Danae, I am sitting here thinking about your question. You are absolutely right. I feel like I do not have the 'right' to express my own feelings. Its almost like my parents are 'right up there' in my estimations, and I am so low down and am not 'worthy'. They have never been directly mean or nasty to me at all, just emotionally cold. My mum has a way with her, like she skirts round real life issues, and pretends everything is o.k. That is how she obviously deals with things. I do not have a problem at all talking about my inner most feelings and have some really good friends to do this with. But trying to imagine talking to my mother about these issues is just so far away from my reality. My dad died three years ago, and since then my mum has been quite depressed. She has never talked about her feelings and she copes because it is the 'practical' thing to do. She would never be seen sobbing in the corner.

I suppose I have always hidden my emotions and still do to a certain degree. I am one of these people who will do it herself because I don't think anyone else can do it for me. I am a coper, and will never ask for outside help if I can help it. We have three dc's and the eldest is disabled. He has his own problems and sometimes can be quite tough to deal with. To be honest, the house is a bit of a heap and I probably don't manage as well as I think I do. I am sure part of the reason is that I am trying to make sure I try and spend time with my lo's, rather than doing the ironing!.

As for ever forgiving my mother for not supporting me at that moment in my life, I don't even think it will ever be an issue because I will never speak of it with her. Sometimes I imagine her as a very old woman, and me finally talking to her about it and about how cold and alone I felt, but I cannot think about this for too long.

Perhaps I need to let go of the expectation of 'spoken' love with my mother. My life happily ticks on at the moment, and I have survived for this long. I know I am loved by my mother, but just don't feel it.