"But we took you to stately homes" - Part 4

[oneplusone]

Can't beleive we're onto part 4, although i can't see this thread ever dying.

I was just reading through past posts to try and catch up on the months i have missed and something somebody said has triggered something for me. I know my mother didn't bond with me or love me and i think part of the reason why was because she thought i took after my dad whom she hates (although she is too gutless to leave him). I remember when i was young her saying things like my hair was like my dad's but she wouldn't say it an affectionate way, but quite a venomous way and it always made me feel uncomfortable when she said that but i must have been too young to figure out why.

The more i realise about my mother the more i despise and hate her. I remember she used to play hide and seek with me when i was very young, about 3. Only she would 'really' hide in a place i would never be able to find her. I remember crying and feeling completely distressed one time as i thought she had gone and left me alone at home. It was only after i had been crying for some time that she jumped out laughing from her hiding place. What a nasty, cruel, ugly piece of work and she parades around looking as if butter wouldn't melt and she has a lot of people fooled including my 2 sisters. I know my dad can see her for what she is which is why she hates him and i can see her true colours too which is why i hate her.

I know inside she is deeply insecure, lacks intelligence, strength and integrity. I have witnessed her lie, manipulate and cheat to get what she wants and the people to whom she lies and those who she manipulates are us, her own family. I just can't beleive my sisters cannot see through her, they are totally blind and deaf to her true character and have completely fallen for the victim role she has carved out for herself.

Cutting off my parents was the best thing i ever did and i have realised i need to set some boundaries with my sisters, my last remaining friend and even DH. How to do that is another thing, something completely new to me.

sorry for typos- ds pulling at my arm-

I'd never thought of that AN- that crying about everything .

I do that all the time. I never used to, but in the last few years as I've become more aware of how painful looking back is, I find myself crying at everything, even when it's cheesy or I know I'm being manipulated - ads, the X-Factor, children's films. It's like there's this great big reservoir of grief that I never allowed to come out at the appropriate time, so it's all there now seeping out when given the opportunity. And yes, it probably is the same with the anger.

LOL at the V signs.

I haven't done that but I've turned my back and mouthed "Fuck off, fuck off, fuck off" silently before turning back and forcing myself back into Mummy mode.

Danae- I totally relate to your explanation of 'why' this happens.

My mother was constantly in my face too.

I often walk away from ds who has been demanding that I see to this that and the other, muttering like a delinquent teenager 'Oh ffs....grrr....mumble...fuck....grrrr'.

And yes there are also times I explode. Last week I said 'For the love of god child Im not your servant'??? he is 3.5.

But yes I believe when it 'was' my turn to carelessly demand I get what I needed I had to relinquish that right. I had to make way instead for my mother.

Ive thought about this a lot recently. There are various stages of this and I think the real turning point was when my father left. I would significantly I think have been around ds's age.

I dont remember other than snapshots of that time so I must have blocked a lot of it out. I think I would have had to comfort 'her'. All her grief at being abandoned went into me. I think 'this' is why abadnonment terrifies me so much.

Not 'me' being abandoned necessarily, but that I must never abandon her as my father had done.

I even think this may have been why the anxiety kicked in, in ernest after the phonecall from her. I had abandoned her.

After they got back together again and had my brother my role was to help her.
At ten when the twins came along, when all of my friends had begun to have social lives mine was taken up with helping my mother with the twins and my brother.
My teen years were a mix of anger, guilt and seething resentment and never having the footlose fancy freeness that others my age had.

The fact is I felt all this as an adult too and I could feel the anger erupting, surfacing when I had a baby to manage (my first) yet I was still expected to meet 'her' needs.

I think it is a good srtaegy to feel the anger and know where it comes from and accept it for what it is.

AN- Meant to say I also really relate to this;

'I still feel like I can't get enough of people agreeing with me that it was shit. Without Therapist saying this I would feel like I am mad and making a lot out of nothing. I still feel I need permission to feel crap because what happened really wasn't as bad as stuff that happens to other people. I still haven't got past that. It's like I don't feel enough permission to feel the full extent of the crapness and process it.'

There are days when I wake up and I just think Im a complete loon. It is all me not them. I am unstable, needy, a mess.
My mother messed with my reality so much over the years it became impossible to believe anything other than the fact 'I' was the problem.
This distortion stops me from moving forward above all else. That is why I am sure the anger gets turned inward. Or part of the reason. The other part is fear. Any display of anger on my part was met with physical anger from them. That is why conflict of any sort makes me shake from the inside out. I feel I 'must' keep the lid on my anger at all costs or something terrible will happen. I know logically it wont, but my body goes into panic mode and I have no control over it.

Gosh, didn't get to this thread for a few days and there's so much on here I can relate to.

Sakura, what you said about triggers is amazing. I think that is exactly what has been happening to me since DD was born, but I am only just starting to realise and recognise it when it happens. And like many of you have said, the feelings that are triggered are out of all proportion to what has actually happened.

I was talking on the phone to my middle sister the other day and she was talking about when she had been over at my place a few weeks back. She said she thought it was funny when she and her DH were antagonising my DD . I didn't say anything and I think she realised i didn't think it was funny to tease a 5 year old girl as if she was an adult and see her get confused and upset. She had reminded me of when she and her DH were over at our house and besides laughing at DD when watching a video of her singing at a wedding, it is true that they were trying to antagonise her and tease her in a way you would an adult or at least a much older child who would understand that kind of 'joke'.

Anyway, after talking to my sister, I felt strange all day and the next morning i just burst into tears for no apparent reason. In my head i was saying 'I want my mummy' as has happened many times when I've been upset. I realised after a while that the conversation with my sister had been a trigger for me, bringing up memories of times when she had teased, harrassed and antagonised me when we were children. I never remember crying during these incidents when i was a child or running to my mother for comfort, i am sure i kept all my feelings locked up inside. But they are now being triggered and finding their way out. When i started crying i thought i was going mad, i had no idea why i felt so upset, but i gradually worked out what caused it and soon felt better after that.

AN and smithfield, i'm afraid i don't have the answer to your question about how you can take yourself back to your childhood and feel your emotions from that time. It only happens to me as I've described above, a random every day event can trigger long suppressed and forgotten feelings and i think the key is to recognise this when it happens. I have also had rage and anger triggered in this way (my MIL triggered a lot of rage in me a few months ago and i have only just realised this, i was genuinely angry at her for a long time and i still dislike her, but the intense rage she triggered i recognise now was rage from my childhood, which should have been directed towards my parents and sisters).

It is difficult to realise when past feelings are triggered, as i often think i have a genuine reason to be angry with say, DD or DH. But i think the intesity of the feelings is perhaps a guide, if your feelings seem way out of proportion to the incident, then perhaps the feelings are from the past.

AN, thank you for telling me how you release your rage, unfortunately i don't have a cellar, wish I did. I sometimes think i need to do a 'role play' (i suppose with a therapist) so i can actually say all the things i want to say to my parents instead of only writing them down or saying them silently in my head. Have any of you ever done anything like this?

Btw, i can also relate to all the things said or done to the DC's when angry, but without them knowing of course. Once i was mad at DD and was dying to shout 'f off you b, just go away and leave me alone' and she went into the bathroom and I was drying my hair at the time so I thought i would say it but in a low voice and the noise of the hairdryer would drown me out. DD came back from the bathroom and although she hadn't heard what i had said she had heard me talking and asked me what i had been saying . I just said i had been trying to get the tangles out of my hair, but i felt awful.

It just shows me though that i definately need an outlet for my angry feelings, one where i can't cause anyone any harm (physical or emotional) but it's so hard. I have neighbours all around me and there is nowhere i can go without being seen or heard.

Going back to when my sister and her DH were over, there were quite a few incidents which i realise now made me feel really uncomfortable but at the time it was if i was still in my 'coma' and couldn't react to them.

She was, on a few occasions, quite mean to DD but in a way that DD didn't understand, so DD wasn't actually upset, just a bit confused. But i feel awful now for keeping quiet at the time and not telling my sister and her DH that their behaviour was inappropriate and unacceptable. But i feel like, it's only dawning on me now what her behaviour was actually like and it's making me see her in a whole new light. I couldn't clearly see her mean side before, which is crazy as i was on the receiving end of her nastiness, teasing and cruelty many times as a child, but i realise i have been blinded by her good traits.

My sister has been keen to have DD over at hers for the day and even to stay overnight, and whilst on the one hand i was keen as well, as DD seems to like my sister and it would give me a break as well, something was making me slightly uncomfortable about the whole thing and i felt like i couldn't trust my sister which is a horrible feeling to have.

But i think now there was a voice inside me trying to tell me about my sister's nasty side and that is what was making me feel uncomfortable about letting DD go to her place.

I guess it's another step forward in overcoming my emotional blindness. I'm glad I can see her clearly now, i know before now i was so desperate to be on good terms with her i was completely blind to who she really was. I'm sure her meanness comes from her deep seated insecurities, but I'm certainly not going to let her use DD to act out her problems on.

Danae, your relationship with your mother had some similarities with my relationship with my brother in so far as they wouldn't leave us alone and now our children not leaving us alone (because children don't) triggers the anger. Danae/Smithfield it seems like we were never given attention for being US but we have to do this for our children and part of us is shouting "What about me?". The question is how to get some of that attention and do 'self-care' (read about that in Surrendered Wife book), enough to have the resources to do it for our children, without going and having multiple affairs or something! I find MN satisfies some of this need for me!

LittleBella, do you think a good therapy for us might be to watch loads of sad films on purpose, think about the things that really did make us sad and do lots of crying! I've borrowed Passion of the Christ to try this technique and I've had it for ages but avoid watching it!

Smithfield, thank you, you reminded me of an important thing - that it was the perpetrators' reponsibilities to control themselves and not behave abusively, not the victim's responsibility to stop them! Therapist has said this, but some things I think we all have to be reminded of lots of times before it sinks in. And I know, if my DD behaved provocatively and someone abused her, there is no way I would think it was her fault! So I suppose this little incident helps me understand how things that happened to me when I was a child were not my fault. Also some of your triggers I can add to my list as well, the way people act, if I feel not listened to or dismissed or if people treat me condescendingly. About competing with your mother - she will never be as good at understanding people and helping people with their thoughts as you and also for this reason, not as good a parent as you. This matters more to people around you than your job title and qualifications I think! (must apply this logic to my thoughts about myself too).

OnePlusOne, I think that is a really useful thing you said, that if you react to something and it feels extreme and out of control and over the top then it is probably because it was a trigger! We can acknowledge this to ourselves and say "You aren't going mad, you've just had a trigger"! and evaluate realistically how bad the thing that just happened was and if it requires any further action and also use the trigger to try to process old shit from the past! We can use our triggers as tools for processing our shit! I like it.

Your sister - it seems like you so want your relationship with her now to be 'fixed' that you are blind to her faults. I'm like this with my bro. Why do we want to have a good relationship with them now? It's like we want to believe they didn't really feel negatively towards us when they mistreated us, it was just a blip, because they are ok with us now and it feels like a relief when they are ok with us and we so want to forgive them. Why though? I don't understand it, yet. What makes us want to have good relationships with these people who made us feel awful?

I don't know if I could do the role play thing with Therapist! I'm too inhibited and self conscious.

I am so relieved I am not the only one, from what others have said on here, that thinks about saying horrible things to their children when they are winding us up.

Today I have been saying to myself (to see if it makes me feel more positive) "I am enjoying being a competent wife and mother. That is my proud job".

I feel that the huge weight has lifted and dissipated (at least for now ) out of my life.
The major key for me was reading about Adult Children of Alcoholics Syndrome and the abandonment (emotional) that I endured.
That was the root of my invisibility-my childhood role-the one to always be dismissed/ridiculed/ or otherwise shamed.
That is how my mother treated me (father workaholic-oblivious) and following her, that is how my Middle Sister treats me (ahem! "treated" because I'm not participating in that anymore! )

I can see how MS's childhood experience would lead her to believe she is matriarch because she was "golden child" it was all about her, always. OS acted out, I was invisible.

However: my Middle Sister had "a hold over me" because of my acute sensitivity to abandonment! My eureka moment. ActingNormal, maybe this might be a part of your circumstances. I am not going to be abandoned-not even by my dh (he is so good)(unless catastrophy beyond our control happens of course)...I DO NOT HAVE TO THINK THAT WAY. I DO NOT HAVE TO FEEL THAT WAY anymore. The fear is gone and I am suddenly relieved of:
Second guessing myself-hyper-evaluation of social interactions to search for possble insults from me or to me-my brain just doesn't jump into that mode anymore.
Spot of exezma on my arm-(like a favorite itch spot a dog would have )has cleared up-like over night. Thank you for your discussions on your skin-mine was not nearly as bad as what you described (about as big as a thumb on the right forearm just below the inside of my wrist) but it was noticeable. But my dear Oldest Sister just broke out as her bipolar husband is raging on the down side these days.
Bad posture-I just feel stronger and want to exercise!
"Sounding" tired (MS would always say I sounded tired-that always irritated me and I didn't know why-a trigger for me-duh-she always kept me pressed down/dismissed- no wonder I "sounded" tired.)

I am not in my childhood anymore, no cloak of invisibility. I will not tolerate Middle Sister's dismissiveness ever again, and as to her wanting 'a relationship' with my children (ds and dd1; dd2 doesn't exist to her yet)no-I will protect my children from being targets for her power plays. She targets youth because of the traditional view of "respecting" adults (ie-power by default)-she deserves no such respect. The gifts are just buying another power play... like Kaa? the snake from Jungle Book causing a trance of numbness. I am not numb anymore.

An example of her dismissiveness: When I told her I was pregnant last summer, she said, "I already knew that." WTF??? Well, her reflex is to dismiss me whenever a syllable leaves my mouth-so what could she say "off the cuff"? She did backoff of it and admit she didn't really already know-but you and I know that she said it: damage done . It makes sense now. Oh how I wish I could have hung up on her and ended it then and there! But I am better for this journey and understand the core of the issues for me.

Thanks for listening to me go on and on (again). And thanks for the heads up on skin, and triggers, and everything else.
Love and ((((hugs)))) to you all,
TMSB

Hi tmsb, love your post, makes so much sense. Am glad your eczema has cleared up. Mine is taking longer as it was pretty bad but it is definately improving instead of getting worse and worse so I am happy. I think the severity of my eczema was a direct reflection of how deeply i had been hurt by my family and how tightly suppressed I had kept my feelings, all inside, not a single emotion was let out or admitted to myself let alone other people. All those feelings were eventually triggered by the birth of DD, but at that time i was not aware of what was happening and i had not learnt to feel or recognise my emotions. So those emotions were still 'trapped' inside my body and manifested themselves as eczema. Now that have slowly learnt to feel, my eczema is no longer flaring up and instead is gradually improving. I'm sure if i went and told that to my GP she would think i was mad; all she has ever done is hand me creams and drugs, none of which ever addressed the root cause of the problem.

AN, your comment about why we are so keen (or desperate in my case) to have a relationship with the siblings who were so cruel to us as children has really made me think. And there is no logical answer. Now that i can clearly see my middle sister, warts and all, I have no idea why i was so desperate for her not to hate me and to have a good relationship with her. I can see now that she is as toxic as my parents and whilst she does have some good qualities as well, these do not somehow cancel out her bad traits, especially since she now seems to be treating my DD in the same way she once treated me.

I don't feel yet that i am seeing my youngest sister clearly in the same way, but no doubt sooner or later she will say or do something which will clarify things for me.

Like someone said earlier (sorry can't remember who) it is incredibly liberating to not feel somehow 'tied' to my sisters, to be able to break free from wanting a relationship with them. My therapist talked to me about being autonomous and i think he meant something along these lines, to be a 'whole' and 'complete' person in yourself without needing these external relationships to make you happy.

Just a quick update re DH. Now that he's back at work and DD is back at school things seem to be a lot better. I still felt a bit tense at the weekend (could have been PMT) but it was manageable. So, i think i am much better when i have my own space and without the whole family being around me all the time. I am sure even that relates back somehow to my childhood but will need to ponder on that for a while before i can work it out.

I just can't stop thinking about how nasty my sister and her DH were when they came over. We showed them DD's very first school report that she got in reception. It was a lovely report, when i first read i cried. Anyway, of course i didn't expect my sister and BIL to be wowed by it in the same way as me and DH were. But my sister was reading the report out loud and her DH was saying things like 'Oh did you write that report DD?' and various other things to generally take the p*. DD wasn't upset really, she was just confused as she's only 5 and didn't understand their 'humour' and usually when people read her report she gets lots of praise etc and this is the first time anyone has behaved like that with her.

The more i think about it, the more i feel my sister and BIL's behaviour was appalling. They seemed set on laughing at my DD by confusing and teasing her. I discussed it with DH and he was also not happy about their behaviour. I'm wondering now whether i should say something to my sister, or just to leave it but to not let DD go there alone. And if they repeat that type of behaviour next time I will definately say something. I feel like kicking myself for not saying something when they were over, but I honestly seemed to be in some sort of coma, i couldn't react to what i was seeing and hearing. I seem to have snapped out of it now, so will definately say something next time.

And to think i have always seen my sister as a kind, caring, even 'motherly' sort of person, when in fact she is quite a cruel, jealous, insensetive, person. She always has a 'mocking' kind of air about her, either mocking me and now my DD. And if i think about it, my father has exactly the same sort of attitude, he loves to mock and denigrate people, and generally looks down on everyone around him, and my sister has clearly learnt this type of behaviour from him. I can't believe how blind I have been, it is almost as if i was too scared to see the truth, but I am so glad i have now.

Tmsb- Is that book by Janet G. Woititz? I ask as I am thinking of getting it myself.
Yep the invisibility. I get that now. Invisible to all of my family. I just dont exist for them. Never have.
A lot of things I have done in the past is to be seen I think. Yet its a combination of wanting to be seen and not wanting to be, because being seen equates with being attacked/shamed. I think this is what you are saying too.
Interesting what you say about your sister pushing you down by saying you look/sound tired. I hadnt thought of it that way. My mother does this too. God the subtlety, the normaslising. No wonder this stuff seeps into us like a disease. It seeps through where we dont even think to look or block it doesnt it.
You sound so strong tmsb. You have come such a long way since you first posts. You deserve a huge pat on the back. and one of these ((((((hug)))))xx

Btw I did buy the parenting book you suggested, but Im afraid I take everything in it as evidence Im doing a bad job and it was spiralling me down a bit. I will try and read it again when I am feeling stronger.

oneplusone/tmsb- You know now you mentioned that one odd patch on your arm, it made me remember that once I hit my teens I too got a patch just above my eye. That is also when I got psorisis (sp) on my scalp.
My teens were the worst truly awful. Much conflict and control and sadness. It is also when my depression/anxiety began.
Yes the body holds all of the pain doesnt it.

Oneplusone- your sister sounds hideous. Sorry to say that. Im sure she has some redeeming qualities. But to torment your dd like that. That is truly horrible. And to enlist her dh. Like a gang mentality. And then to tell you.... she makes me .
Do you feel you are still wanting acceptance from your sisters? I ask because I thin k I want this from my siblings. But the price is going to be too high.

An example is me wanting to go to the christening to keep Mid db happy. I dont wnat to frustrate him. But this would be at a huge cost to myself.
And back to invisibilty do you know db 'never' mentions that I havent spoken to my mum or dad. As if it's not really happening.

Also re your dh- Would he be triggering feelings about your own father?

Interesting that you assumed that sharing your DD's school report with your sister was the normal thing to do, oneplusone. It has never even occurred to me to show any of my family either of my DC's school reports, and your post has clarified for me, why! It hasn't been a thought-out decision, just an instinct I guess...

Some people can make you feel crap and put down in such subtle ways that there is nothing big you can put your finger on and say "You did 'this' bad thing". So you can't think of the right thing to say at that moment and then feel crap because you didn't stand up for yourself. You can sometimes think of what you should have said at a later time when it is too late! I've never been very good at dealing with people like this either. I wonder if there are some stock responses we could memorize. eg. maybe challenge them "what made you say that?" and stare them right in the eye with a straight face. Or maybe "That comment doesn't make me feel very good, what did you mean by it?". Can anyone think of any others?

The last couple of times I've been to the gym I've been really feeling the pain. This is weird. I couldn't really feel it before and I always overdo it and kind of 'want' the pain. I wonder if there is some 'mental' reason why I am suddenly feeling it? I can't do as well as I used to if it hurts more but I hate the thought of looking like I've got worse at it! I was thinking about taking painkillers beforehand but I can see that this is a stupid idea!

God, my DS is driving me bonkers today, am I going to start feeling as angry with him as with DD? He cries and whines over every little thing and always has done. I can't stand the noise any more. I've just strapped him in his pushchair and put him in the hall and shut the door. He just won't cope in RL if he cries over every tiny thing! I've been letting him though because I'm scared to repress him and now I can't take it anymore.

Hi
Smithfield-the ACOA book I have is by Wayne Kritsberg. It is a small paperback. I did look up Woititz and her Self-sabotage book may be my next study.
The Kritsberg book has a detailed system for revisiting/recovering childhood memories and dealing with them. It did advise the method to use a photograph from your childhood as was mentioned here earlier-(I forget who-sorry-Sakura or Danae? guessing sorry )...and then a dialog with the inner child through letter writing (the child writes back in the off hand-write with left hand if you are right handed.)
The whole system of recovery is based on Family Integration System that you develop in a 17 section loose leaf notebook. The author gives a lot of prompts and a few examples to help get you started. I might go ahead and try it.

Thanks for giving the parenting book a try. I am sorry if it brought you pain-but there may be some avenues of resolution for you in there. Have courage-you want to do better so you are not a bad parent. I recognized the process/effects in it in me, too. But for me, and my sensitivity to never having been validated by my parents as a child, I always considered my dc's point of view from very early on. The book did make me realize where some of my behavior came from though. And there are times when my dh teases me for "mothering too much" and finally last week I just responded with-"Well, I'll tell you why: I had a crap mother and I want to do better!" -in front of all the kids. No response-I didn't really intend to 'shut him up' about it but it may have had that effect.

Oneplusone- for you about your sister and bil. Please do not serve up your DD on a silver platter for them anymore. They are ridiculing her to put you down-no good any way you look at it. I know you are proud of your dd and want to share but they obviously can not share innocently, in good faith. They can't just be happy for you. Protect your dd. Even now she is old enough (5) to have feelings about their behavior-talk to her about it-or more simply, let her talk to you about it-just listen- so it doesn't grow and become one of these childhood issues she'll have to unravel when she is an adult. God forbid she should adopt their behavior-so at least try to let her know that their behavior is awkward and not appropriate, perhaps sometimes you even think they sound mean. And if she gets into your sister's face and calls her a meanie and says you said so-just shrug and say 'the truth will set you free' . And no, you would not explain or apologize.

hi smithfield, my sister is not a complete witch, but almost! She definately has a mean, nasty, cruel, vindictive, mocking, insensetive, jealous and cutting side. All of which I was kind of aware of but it was as if the knowledge was in my subconscious, whereas now it is in my conscious mind. She also is quite generous and helpful in a practical way.

She also seems genuinely interested in my DC's, she always asks after them if we speak/txt, she always buys them presents whether it's their birthday or not and apart from the nastiness (which so far seems to have gone over DD's head) she does play with them in a way i can see they enjoy. So it's not black and white but at least i now have my eyes open to her dark side as well as her good side. Like Alice Miller says, it's all part of overcoming my emotional blindness.

LittleBella, i honestly thought my sister would be pleased and interested to read DD's report. Actually when i think about it now, it was her DH that was nastiest over the school report rather than my sister. If her DH hadn't been such a twt over the report i think my sister would have been fine and reacted as i expected her to. She should have told her DH to shut up, but she's like my mother, too gutless to tell her DH when he's being an ar*hole. We've also shown the report to DH's parents who were amazed and pleased and sent DD a lovely card to say well done. Just shows the difference between toxic and non-toxic families.

tmsb, thank you and once again I LOVE your post! I am not sure about talking to DD about sister and bil's behaviour, simply because it was a few weeks ago and perhaps the moment has passed and she has probably forgotten about it. I might mention it and a one or two of the 'mean' incidents and see if DD says anything and take it from there.

I would LOVE DD to call my sister a meanie, and I would also love to do as you have suggested :"just shrug and say 'the truth will set you free'." And no, I would not explain or apologize. Brilliant, almost worth 'engineering' another incident just so i can use your line.

Therapist will 'disapprove' of this but I felt my anger towards my mum seeping away and a gentle feeling of relief coming into the space.

How can I be angry with her when I could feel how hard it was for her to phone me and to force her words out as she was crying and trying to stay in control of herself. I felt like I didn't want her to go through that but at the same time really grateful. I feel like she has done a really big thing for me which will make a big difference to me. I feel really impressed by her because I know how hard it was for her to do that but she made herself do it.

She made excuses for not responding to my letter sooner. She made excuses for not doing more during my childhood. She tried to make it partly my fault by saying something like if only I could have told her exactly what he did in plain language (I did, I remember the conversation quite clearly still). But she did say she didn't completely understand BUT that she SHOULD HAVE ASKED ME TO EXPLAIN MORE. She admitted this. This is very important to me.

She said she wanted to say how sorry she was about what happened and sorry if I thought she should have done something. And that she still loves me just as much. This is the first time she has said she loves me! It was a shock to hear it. And she is saying she loved me back then in that sentence.

I could have argued with her excuses but I couldn't bring myself to when the whole conversation was so hard for her already. I can understand her vulnerability and defensiveness and why she would feel the need to make excuses. I could feel how wretched and ashamed she felt. I didn't feel she was just saying the right words because she felt people would think she should. I felt that she meant it. It is the first time that she has expressed herself to me enough that I could feel her feelings.

I know that how I feel about her NOW because of this will block me from feeling how I felt as a child and processing that and that is the bit that Therapist will disapprove of, but at the same time it is really important to me that she has done this and part of me feels much better.

Been talking to DH and getting perspective after my initial excitement over my mum's unexpected apology.

He says (and he is right):

It is crap that she took 4 months to respond to my letter, to even aknowledge that she read it and it is crap that she made excuses today about why she had not responded sooner. She said she hadn't seen me enough or been alone with me. She has had times alone with me (times longer than the length of the phone call) when I thought she might say something and she did not. She said she doesn't like writing letters so she didn't write back. She said she needed to find a time to phone me when dad was out and I was on my own. She knows I'm on my own on Mondays and Thursdays til 3pm and has my dad not gone out to do one of his many pastimes on a Monday or Thursday for 4 months!

It is crap that she made excuses for not doing anything about her father. She said sorry, but DH said she should have just said sorry and not made excuses.

It is crap that she tried to put the blame on me by saying I didn't explain properly when I was a child and crap that she tried to put the blame on my dad by saying that she said to him not to leave me alone with gf because he was "too free with his hands".

It is crap that my dad didn't ask her what she meant and didn't do anything about it. It is crap that my dad said to me twice in the last couple of years that he knew nothing about what had happened with gf until now. If what my mum said is true then she told him when I was a child, or at least hinted at it.

It is crap if my mum phoned me up only because my dad's sister said something to influence her at the weekend (this is what we suspect happened). Would she have never talked to me about it otherwise?

It is crap that what gf did to my mum was not as bad as what he did to me - I mean I don't wish it on her, but I had thought she was really afraid of him/affected by him because of him abusing her worse than me and that was a big part of the reason she didn't stand up to him and stop him. Now she has told me that what he did to her "never went as far" as what he did to me.

It seems to me that I have had the worst shit out of everyone in my family yet I haven't gone on to do as bad things as them.

It is very good and I should be very happy that she apologised BUT DH says this in no way means that I should forgive her and he wouldn't forgive her. He said my parents really fucked up and he was really harsh about them. His reaction felt good because I felt more than ever before that he is on my side and has validated my feelings on it. There have been times when he doesn't want me to talk about it and tries to dismiss it all and make me think I should just be able to forget it because it was so long ago, so him talking like this was a relief.

AN- Your husband is right. He has said all the things I was thinking, but I didnt want to write it as I knew you would work through it somehow.
Im so pleased your husband is validating you like this AN. I feel quite a fan of mr AN right now.

AN, I'm in two minds about your mum's apology. On the one hand I know its taken her a lot of courage to apologize, and it is a very brave thing for her to do, and isn't that what all of us here have been wanting. SHe has done 'the right thing' and you should give her credit for that.

BUT, something your husband said flashed a few warning bells for me:

"It is crap that she tried to put the blame on me by saying I didn't explain properly when I was a child and crap that she tried to put the blame on my dad by saying that she said to him not to leave me alone with gf because he was "too free with his hands".

I've read that often, when an abuser (or passive abuser like your mother- who allowed the abuse to happen) actually apologizes, afterwards it can feel terrible to the victim because its as if the abuser wants absolution, forgiveness. AS though to say 'There, its done now, I've said it'
What victims of abuse find is that the apology turns out not to be enough, by a long, long stretch. Not because the victim wants to keep harbouring a grudge, but because it turns out that the long-awaited apology ends up merely trivialising all the abuse that went on. SOmetimes the 'apology' can even be a tool to shut the victim up.
Its as though all of that hell, all of that pain that the victim went through is not touched on by the person apologizing, and it ends up sounding as though the person doesn't even realise exactly what it is they're apologizing for.

Now I'm not saying your mother is being manipulative and she really does deserve all credit for the apology, which must have been so hard. BUT this does not put you in any position where you now suddenly owe her anything, or you now have to be 'nice' to her. THis is not about your mother now-its beyond that. We don't apologize to people just so they stop hating us. If the apology is sincere, we should let the apology stand and give the other person their own time to come round to forgiving us (if they indeed ever will...)

But go with your instincts. You may the success story of this thread! I truly hope so

An- sakuras post is a very insightful one. And yes I agree there is still something to be said for your mother having said the word sorry.
I often think that I would forgive my father before I ever forgive my mother because after he had hit me he would often apologise.
I always forgave him freely at the time, and Im not sure how he would have responded if I had said, 'Im glad you apologised but I need time to process this/discuss this more in order to move on from what you did'. Of course I never would have said that as (being a teen) I would not have had such a sophisticated grasp on my emotions.
But I do think that his ability to apologise meant on some level he had insight into the fact he had done wrong.
On the other hand I always got the impression it was not open for discussion. He'd aplogised so that was the end of it.
For him maybe but not for me necessarily.

How do you feel about it all this morning?