Patriarchy is behind male unhappiness

[Sheeled]

I realise this is hardly a revelation, but wanted to explore one idea that occurred to me watching " Adolescence" "Half Man" & my reading and observation.
It seems to me that a big part of the reason for straight male desperation is the fear of.not being able to attract a woman.
Clearly women and gay men who want and don't have a relationship are also at risk of severe frustration and possible isolation. However many more women and gay men have active, deep caring friendships that nourish their emotional needs, compared to many straight men.
Why? Because of the conditioning of the patriarchy that straight "real" men don't have emotions, and shouldn't provide emotional support to anyone as this is women's stuff.

The reality is, all human beings have emotional needs, hence the rise of the so called male "emotional golddigger".

Would the term "incel" have the emotional resonance it does if men could have close emotional bonds with each other? Don't know. Obviously even then there would be the issue of sexual desire, but again, would.men experience desire at a level that realistically may not be possible to be satiated if they had more loving physical contact with each other?

Lastly, you may know the book "women dont owe you pretty". Time for a male version- men don't owe you strong/stoic/wealthy"?

Would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Isn't the saying "men are afraid that women will laugh at them: women are afraid that men will kill them."?

Nice deviation from "discuss" though.

Women don’t have the same response to being single being they don’t have the same level of entitlement of men. This is the root cause to the anger and discontent.

In terms of your last sentence. This isn’t like for like here - the comparison doesn’t work... These are not the same things at all. Women are all for men with emotional literacy- it’s men who have the issue with that. Your efforts would be focused on how we stop emotions and feelings being a dirty word amongst men. That’s an issue which needs to start with men, not women. Ofc, that would involve not calling women emotional and irrational etc so there we have the sticking point.

This line is very telling “men don't owe you strong/stoic/wealthy”. It reveals quite a bit about your motivation here.

Women, when single don’t get angry or become victims. They turn to female friendships and mixed groups and inward for self improvement, hobbies, working on social skills and self esteem.
Men just get angry at women because they aren’t attractive and don’t see it as anything to do with them, but all to do with women.

Not all women or all men.

Agree that entitlement is a major cause of male anger. They somehow think they are entitled to a woman who will serve and prop them up and make them happy. Those that don't have a woman are angry about that and blame the entirety of womankind for being stroppy picky bitches. And those that do have a woman are also often angry, because they think they are entitled to happiness ergo anything that goes wrong in their life must be the fault of the woman.

Men are also constantly competing with other men in terms of their possessions and status (which include having a woman), so they don't form close fulfilling emotional bonds with each other. They don't trust each other, most certainly not with their fears and anxieties, and they're constantly presenting an inauthentic persona.

Sometimes I feel compassion towards them, they're so emotionally stunted and blunted and inept. But as a sex class, they're responsible for so much suffering of women and children because they're so violent and selish. My compassion struggles when I see the utter destructive stupidity of the Iran war, the grotesque barbarity of Gaza, the rape academy, the Pelicot case, the 1200 girls brutalised by Epstein and Co, the drugging of more that 200 women by a French Civil servant to cause them to need to urinate in front of him when they went for a job interview, the sickening savagery against women and girls in Sudan and Central African Republic, the towering DV rates everywhere in the world, the high rape rates everywhere, the fact that 97.5% of rapists don't spend any time in prison in the UK, and - something I just learned, to my horror - the fact that 14%, 20%, and 34% of all rape victims in the USA are in the 0-5, 6-11, and 12-17 yo age brackets respectively. I mean, FOURTEEN PERCENT of all rape victims in the USA are very small children, with a peak at 4 yo. Women and children are not safe with men, including at home.

Absolutely to the previous poster. The appalling lack of emotional skills, susceptibility to manipulation, not listening, inability to find an alternative system to capitalism, all lead to dreadful treatment of others. You're quite right to point out the sheer amount of human suffering that goes back to mens inability to cope.
I really do not know what it will take for men to see how much misery could be avoided if they just did some work on themselves and recognised and in some way coached those among them who behave badly

We were working a lock on the canal yesterday. I (f) was steering the boat, which was in the lock. DH was dealing with closing the bottom gates but both gates were drifting open. DH decided to start opening one of the top paddles and then shut the bottom gates. As he went back to the bottom gates the man on the boat above the lock came to help up. He put his lock handle on and began to turn it without looking at me (huge error) and without noticing that one of the bottom gates was still open. I asked him to stop and he started to argue with me. I pointed to the still open bottom gate and he and his lock handle went back to his boat. If he couldn't work the lock on his terms he wasn't going to do it.
For anyone still interested if you let too much water down when the second gate shuts there is a quick build up of water behind the boat which is flung forward and can hit the top gate hard. He was wrong all ways round.

Adolescence isn't a documentary...

Some men simply don't "get on" with other men, so some men don't have that same network of support etc., and end up isolated with no one to talk things through with. Even those who do "go out with the lads" are highly unlikely to talk about deeper feelings etc as that's not part of their usual "banter".

My DH has, literally, no male friends. None at all. Never has had. Never gone out to the "pub with his mates" or a "footie match with the lads". He just hates the "banter", the male egos, etc.

He's always got on better with women. Always preferred to work with women, etc., and gets on better with women when he was doing voluntary work, charity work, and was a member of clubs and societies. Never broadening to any kind of "friendship" as such outside the specific environment.

It's probably why I was attracted to him in the first place as he's about the polar opposite of the "bad boy" "alpha male" "macho man" - the kind of lad/bloke that were always so popular when you're young, but who I'd never touch with a bargepole.

So yes, you really can't generalise and I believe there are lots of blokes who don't fit in the stereotype of the "typical" male. I'd also venture to say our DS is the same - he's had what I consider to be a good role model in my DH and he seems to be very popular among the females at work and in his hobby groups, not in a romantic way, but in a kind of "brother/sister/collegue" way.

I never really knew DH's father as he died within the first few months of me meeting DH, but the few times I did meet him, he seemed a very quiet and respectful kind of guy. I often think that it's good role models, DH followed his father and our DS is following my DH in respecting women for who they are rather than for anything else.

Yes, I know some posters will pile on saying all men are the same and my DH and DS are just hiding their true feelings, but I just don't believe it - the way they talk and act says otherwise.

So, yes, I do think that the "patriarchy" can be very damaging for some males who simply don't fit into the "normal" male behaviour patterns and are genuinely left out and confused.

Men are also constantly competing with other men in terms of their possessions and status (which include having a woman), so they don't form close fulfilling emotional bonds with each other. They don't trust each other, most certainly not with their fears and anxieties, and they're constantly presenting an inauthentic persona.

"Masculinity" is basically a drag performance.

So is "femininity" but the difference is that deconstructing conventional femininity, socially acceptable femininity and innate femininity is fairly mainstream. I was exposed to women in the public eye who rebelled against and subverted the patriarchy from my teenage years. To my eyes, "masculinity" relies so much on unspoken cues and conformity, and there are very few voices even naming those things let alone subverting them. Weirdly, the rise of incel culture has actually led to "saying the quiet part out loud" to an extent... just, unfortunately, to reaffirm it rather than undo it.

I agree with what you said and I think that backs up what the OP is arguing.

The patriarchy is bad for men as well as women.

It’s not a case of men as individuals being ‘bad’. I too know men that don’t fit that category…but unfortunately they are exceptions, not the rule. We have to consider it from the perspective of gender based violence, sexual assault, domestic violence etc etc. It immediately becomes clear there’s a huge issue. It’s about men as a group, not individuals. I’m sure nobody would genuinely claim that ALL men actively participate in this, but it isn’t just about that. Good men also need to be challenging others and instigating the change within their own communities and social groups, but inevitably this just doesn’t happen because male socialisation rewards the silence which keeps women and children unsafe.

'Yes, I know some posters will pile on saying all men are the same and my DH and DS are just hiding their true feelings, but I just don't believe it - the way they talk and act says otherwise.'

Totally agree that not all men are the same. It's frustrating when people assume that they are. In the same way, not all women are nurturing, emotionally vulnerable types who confide easily in others and are skilled at taking care of people

Patriarchy absolutely does harm men too, no question. Low expectations regarding accountability, responsibility, self awareness and relationships with other people do them no favours, and it starts when they are tiny boys.

The list that @LouiseMadetheBestBroccoliPasta shared upthread is really chilling - men as a sex class cause so much harm and misery

Men are loaded with entitlement. It's not nurture, it's nature. Sex is also the most important thing to them, not love or friendship. So if you put sex and entitlement together, what have you got? Anyone who thinks that thousands of years of evolution will be changed through more enlightened parenting or men getting in touch with their feminine sides are sadly delusional.

"Good men also need to be challenging others and instigating the change within their own communities and social groups, but inevitably this just doesn’t happen because male socialisation rewards the silence which keeps women and children unsafe."

In relation to this, I just read an interesting article on why "good" men struggle with feminism.The author said it comes down to:

1. Religion, where the delineation of male and female roles is set by an omnipotent god, so the "good" men are just following orders. Several people in the comments noted that this adherence to god-ascribed male/female roles was cherry picking - why do "good" men adhere to this particular aspect but not, for example, the rule that we shouldn't wear clothes made from two different fibres?
2. The belief that the greater physical strength of men means they are biologically more worthy and therefore deserve to have power over women and children. Which is kind of funny, since men literally wouldn't exist without women.
3. Fear of losing privilege. I'm quoting from the article here:

"This is currently the most common resistance, and it is distinct from the first two because it does not pretend to be principled. It is simply self-interest. Many men today do not base their resistance to feminism on religion or biology. They understand, at least intellectually, that difference does not mean inferiority. But they are still unwilling to actively support gender equality because they are aware, consciously or not, of what they currently benefit from and what equality would require them to share or release... The fear is not irrational. Privilege, once lost, does feel like loss even when what was lost was never legitimately held. This is why some men who consciously know better still hesitate at the threshold."

This is really the crux of why "good" men are still so silent on the destructive havoc being wreaked by men on the world. One of the commenters, a man, agreed: "The useful distinction here is between decency and self-examination. A man can be kind in private life and still defend structures that quietly keep him centered"

The article also made an excellent point about how self-defeating this mentality is:

"What this fear misses is the mathematics of reciprocity. Marriages where both partners operate as genuine equals — sharing power, decision-making, domestic labor, and economic responsibility — report dramatically higher happiness than those built on hierarchical structures. A study on marital satisfaction show that over 80% of egalitarian marriages report being happy, compared to fewer than 20% of traditional hierarchical marriages. Spousal abuse rates are also significantly higher in hierarchical marriages than in egalitarian ones. Equality in a relationship does not diminish anyone. It expands what is possible for both people."

The article is here, although you might not be able to read it if you don't have a Medium subscription
https://medium.com/fourth-wave/why-even-good-men-struggle-with-feminism-2ab17654d8f7

Thanks, that looks really interesting- I don’t have an account but I’ll make one so I can have a read.

It seems to me that a big part of the reason for straight male desperation is the fear of.not being able to attract a woman.

First, outside the posts of a few over-hyped social media content creators I do not believe there is any "straight male desperation" (and I speak as a straight male).

Second, men are capable of close emotional bonds with other men. It is simply that they do not express them in a way many women seem capable of understanding. "Never let your mates down" actually means something.

Third, it seems to me that the real difference when it comes to relationships is that women analyse them and men don't. No way could I see a man writing the original post (not unless he was some kind of social scientist).

Finally, from my personal observation, any man who wants a long-term relationship with a woman (whether in a marriage or not) will have found one by the time he's in his early 30s. If he is not in one by (say) 35 it is because he does not want one.

Edited for typo

Definitely. Most women aren't looking for strong/stoic/wealthy. They're looking for loving/kind/equal.

"Good men also need to be challenging others".
They dont though do they, they laugh along together. Years ago i was on a night bus one man was harassing a young woman, several men were laughing along. I interviened they did nothing.
Witnessed gay men being awful to lesbians.
Ime these men who have female friends go ohh arr LTB to us on private. I haver never once witnessed a man challange other men on their behaviour, never.
I dont persue friendships with men, even in work situations they have created alliances with me and do less labour. The clever ones want the benefits of our alliance but will not stand up for us.
The vast majority of social workers, nurses. teachers are female.
I know loads of bright middle class, middle aged women, they do everything for their husbands including caring for their aging parents.

The patriarchy benefits no one, including men. Those who struggle to move on get left behind. Women never wanted this, and most men don't either. That's why stereotypes need to be challenged.

Women get along without men just fine. Patriarchy exists to manipulate conditions to force women to need men for protection, shelter, food, respectability, etc. It’s systematic deprivation of access to resources.

It damages men, because the reasoning that allows a person restrict resources to another person who happens to be a woman, is the same reasoning that allows them to restrict resources to any other person who is weaker or smaller (and for the kicker, call them women too).

I don’t think that your argument is correct @Sheeled because patriarchy flourished, and these problems still abounded in historical eras where male friendships were actively encouraged. There must always a class group of lesser men - serfs, slaves, working class, incels, immigrants, poor, in order for successful men to flourish.

However, when women are treated as a commodities, and even low ranking men can feel superior to them, and potentially control one, then they are more supportive of the system overall.

Traditionally the only male support for women’s rights came from the far left, because those men, excluded from access to power and resources could see the benefit of overthrowing the system entirely. That support wanes quickly if it doesn’t result in secure sexual access.

It scares me that women in general are far too complacent about rights and equality which are historically and culturally unprecedented and anomalous. We shouldn’t take this for granted at all.

Nail on the head.

Your husband sounds wonderful...why can't he run classes 😍
Why are "we" attracted to those fecking men that need healing. Part of the problem is how women like me and many of my friends see ourselves as fixers.

Absolutely, that's very true. Systematic gender bias exist in law, education, and healthcare. Women's rights are often undervalued. The most severe sexism I've encountered in my life has actually come from women. Why?

It seems to me that a big part of the reason for straight male desperation is the fear of.not being able to attract a woman.

Or the fear that they are seeing women thrive without them, and they hate us for it. Look at the comments unmarried/childfree women get on social media when they're living their best lives.

You only have to look at Mumsnet with men going on stags, fucking off to play golf all weekend or disappearing on benders to know that men are often preoccupied in impressing other men. Money, cars, how many women they can fuck, status etc. their wives and girlfriends are further down the pecking order and exist to provide domestic care, food, children and sex.

Lastly, you may know the book "women dont owe you pretty". Time for a male version- men don't owe you strong/stoic/wealthy"?

I mean, that's telling as a PP said. The most important thing I wanted from my husband was to feel safe.

The best thing unrelated men can do for me? Leave me alone, please. Unless I'm paying them to provide a service, I could do without being approached, spoken at, condescended to etc.

Women who generally dislike men just want to avoid them. Men who dislike women want to hurt, abuse, rape, disfigure and kill them. So the whole 'patriarchy is just as bad for men' - yeah, just as bad 🙄