My sister is failing her kids

[janglemycoppers]

NC for this, obvs.
My sister and her husband shout and scream at each other in front of their kids all the time. There is no violence as far as I'm aware, or if there was it would be more likely to be her on him.
The kids are obviously struggling with this, what do I do? They're sad, becoming more mean, fight each other, tease and goad each other. One is obsessed with describing things he's going to do to various people - setting them on fire, trapping them, locking them in places.
I think if I try to talk to her she'll just not accept it, husband is equally unaccountable.
How do I deal with this, or do I say not my circus not my monkeys, but know that I'm letting the kids down too.
Is this a thing I could speak to social services about? Or is that not really their remit?

You’re their aunty and these children are growing up in a verbally abusive household. This is going to affect them markedly.

It certainly is your business and in addition their children are showing behavioural issues. if they are like this now what are they going to be like in their teenage years?. Early intervention is vitally important.

Do consider talking to the NSPCC and Social Services. These young people need help as do their parents.

Please do something for those kids. It’s good you care about them. Can you talk to your sister in no uncertain terms with research in hand to show her the impacts. If it continues after this, I would try to involve SS

I think I need to do something. I've never seen them be mean to the kids, it's more just a total lack of respect for each other and it comes out in them yelling at each other, bickering, swearing. Then the kids join in too, so the volume at their house is so noisy.
I think the kids are loved, I think they're just living in a house that is angry. I doubt anyone is happy.
Is it the kind of situation social services do though, if the yelling isn't directed at the kids. I hadn't thought of the NSPCC, so that's a really good idea, thank you @AttilaTheMeerkat

I would ring social services but if you don’t want to take that step just yet then I’d speak to the school and let them know. They may keep an eye out on the children’s behaviour and potentially flag up issues to pass on to social services.

Some councils have a parental conflict mediation service. I would contact social services to a discuss your concerns and they may be able to refer for this support as a type of early help level or target early help level of support.

they've just moved and so I don't know which school it is. I'd feel more strange about the school because it could definitely get back to my sister

ok this is really helpful. Thank you

Some children's services might be interested, most I think would not - a bit of a postcode lottery. It's unlikely that it would meet the threshold for them to be removed. There is a famous case where a judge defined "good enough" parenting:

"society must be willing to tolerate very diverse standards of parenting, including the eccentric, the barely adequate and the inconsistent. It follows too that children will inevitably have both very different experiences of parenting and very unequal consequences flowing from it. It means that some children will experience disadvantage and harm, while others will flourish in atmospheres of loving security and emotional stability. These are the consequences of our fallible humanity and it is not the provenance of the state to spare children all the consequences of defective parenting. In any event, it simply could not be done.”

So that's the baseline for social services.

You can have a role as an adult in their life who models healthy relationships and respectful speech though.

Thank you. I think that's my concern that it's not like the kids are the subject of the anger and yelling, it's just a dysfunctional relationship. I would be surprised if there was physical violence in the house and I've never seen anything to suggest the kids are being actively and directly harmed.
I just feel like as they are pre-teens, things could be about to get a lot worse and the kids might be setting out on pathways that they don't need to. But if course, not sure that's a problem for social services, given the state of the service!

Would she be open to a discussion on leaving the husband for the wellbeing of the kids?

You may find yourself utterly helpless having to watch your sister fuck her kids heads up, services are unlikely to do anything. Model a different way to the kids, try to give them a break from it and see that life can be different. It’s awful, so sorry. She probably knows it’s not ok but if she won’t admit it that is a fairly bad sign in itself

I think she'd feel like she would be lost without him. She didn't have a successful time in her teens, he's the only person she's really been with, and I just don't know that she'd rather be on her own, despite the fact that she really doesn't seem to like him!
I had wondered if they were worse when they had people over from the stress of hosting, but talking to my nephew, I think maybe that's not the case.

Thank you, yes that's how I'm starting to feel. I'm going to speak to the NSPCC to see what they think re SS as that feels like a sensible starting point. But I also think I have to work out a way to see the kids and show them another way.
The day at theirs was so awful I don't really want to go back there, and I certainly don't want my kids around it. But I don't want to cut the kids off entirely.
I don't know that my mum is even worried about it as she's pretty dysfunctional too, so I don't know that there's any allies to talk to about it, or provide a united front.

Have you had a loving but firm chat with her about it? Maybe she doesn’t realise the impact it’s having on the kids because she’s so wrapped up in the moment / almost caught in a loop with the rowing? I’d sit my sister down and have a chat from a caring perspective like, are you ok, you and H need to sort it out, it’s not good for the kids / will impact them, will you go to therapy / couples counselling etc? Xx

Notify the safeguarding kead in the school.

I haven't recently, not after seeing how bad it was last time we were there. I think I really need to suck it up and do it for the kids sake. I doubt she'll listen though

Could you offer to have the kids for weekend?

I would write her a frank letter, setting out how the situation looks to you and how you see it affecting the kids, and at the end of it suggest a face to face chat. That way she has time to absorb and digest what you are saying, rather than just blowing up in your face and rejecting it all out of hand.

You’re not wrong to be concerned, and to act on it. Children’s safety and wellbeing are everyone’s business.

You could report anonymously to crimestoppers that you’ve heard shouting/ distressed kids, and you’re a concerned neighbour, if you were to do this over a period of time claiming to be different neighbours that may potentially raise a flag.

The trouble is if your sister feels judged by you or finds out it’s been you reporting her i.e. to social services those children will inevitably be further separated from you (Ask me how I know this 😖) so you have to treat very very carefully with her, but at the same time you can’t just ignore it.

It’s absolutely horrendous, some people are just not emotionally mature enough to be a good parents. Doesn’t matter the state of your relationship. There’s no excuse for behaving like this around/to your kids.

definitely try and find out the school and speak to the safeguarding person. No doubt they will realise there’s an issue given the kid’s behaviour.

so sad, I really empathise with your situation and those poor kids

Hoe close are you to your sister?.

Also you write they (your sister’s family) have just moved so it’s unlikely op knows what school
they will attend. Do consider contacting the NSPCC in the first instance given what one of her children is already wanting to do to various people.

Your nephew is threatening to start fires and harm people? That’s serious. You need to report them to so ial services before he harms himself or others. The family is at risk and he is at risk.

PROCEEDS TO PUT ON HER FLAME SUIT.

I would like to share my story. I don't think that I lived in what would be considered a verbally abusive home but before my DH and I separated I was absolutely miserable living with someone who didn't love me, didn't like me and didn't see anything of any value in me. It was awful and we lived in an environment where I was hypersensitive to his constant criticism and it was like constantly walking on egg shells. It was a constant snipey comments sort of situation. He wouldn't move out and it was a very difficult time. I didn't like my behaviour either, it was just like being saturated in negativity.

If someone had come to me at that time and said I was an unfit mother I would not have handled it well and it wouldn't have achieved anything positive. I was trying so hard to hold it together. I was having very dark thoughts. I am not excusing the stress of the household I'm just explaining it.

However when my sister actually said something along the lines of... "It seems like everyone in the house is struggling, I think you need a plan to work things out and make things better for the kids" and she helped me with this plan. She also took the kids out a few times which was amazing because I was under so much pressure I appreciated the breathing space for a few hours.

Thank you, your sister sounds very nice. I'm glad you were able to get help. I get what you mean, and I definitely think that the way it's phrased and approached will make a big impact in the success of talking about it. I like the idea of saying that everyone is struggling - this is true and not blame pointing, so I may use that.

I get this, and I'm sorry to hear about your situation, sounds like you've been through something similar. But I don't want to lie when reporting it. I feel like if they need intervention then everything needs to be starting from a place of truth

Not that - distance wise and emotionally, We get on, but we don't really confide in each other. I think generally our family is a bit dysfunctional, such as how she's ended up here thinking it's ok. I don't know what school they're at, it's small though, so might get back to her if I report it in.