When you want to leave but are stuck.

[Thistledew]

What do you do when you feel your marriage has died a death, but you currently have no way of leaving that would not cause such spectacular difficulties that you can't contemplate it?

H and I have been together for nearly 18 years, married for 13. We have two DC: DS9 and DD5.

In hindsight, our marriage has been dying a death since DS was born, but things really shifted for me a couple of years ago. We have tried couple's counselling, which for me has resulted in much better clarity about myself, H and the relationship, but has not resulted in us coming closer together.

I really don't see DH in the same way as I did when we married. The biggest issue is that he has anger issues - nothing violent or loud, but these awful frosty silences whenever I or the children do something that he is unhappy with. There have been some other things that he has done which really go against my own values.

But I can't currently work out a way of changing things so that I can leave. My work requires me to travel a couple of times a week - usually very early starts and back by dinner time. I won't split custody 50/50 with DH as I am not prepared to leave the DC to cope with his angry moods by themselves. Changing my work is difficult - I'm trying to build up more work locally but this is particularly difficult to do. I'm putting things in place but at the moment it is only a hope that things might be better in a year or two. Moving much closer to London would help, but I currently live near my mother who is in declining health and mobility and I am an only child. I am also very reluctant to move DS9 from his school before he leaves for high school - he has had a very difficult time at another school previously due to his ADHD and dyslexia and is now flourishing.

We also made some poor financial decisions around the house that we are in- we ran out of money completing a renovation and extension project (H's mismanagement of the funds for this is one of the reasons that I have lost respect for him). Due to where we are located it is likely to be very difficult to sell a partly- finished property and there is a real risk that we would not get sufficient equity out of it in its current state to enable us both to buy elsewhere. I know that many people rent when they separate, but I contributed a significant amount of equity to the purchase of our house from my previous homes and it would be a kick in the teeth to lose that.

I am taking steps to make everything else in my life as good as it can be, and am for the first time in years feeling happy that I don't need my marriage to provide company, friendship etc.

But where do I go from here? If you have stuck out a bad situation for a couple of years, how have you dealt with it emotionally?

surely his custody rights are now affected by his insane behaviour @Nat6999 ? Does he get the children EOW ? Are you okay , do your parents help with childcare.....more of your story may be helpful to OP

I was once where you are, OP and you have my profound sympathies. My ex also had the frosty silences as well as a lot of other behaviours which would not be acceptable to a living soul. I had 3 small children.

I had nowhere to go, no job, nothing. This may not be what you want to hear, but I felt that I had no choice but to play the waiting game. I waited for 15 years for the children to grow up a bit more. I trained and got a job. And it was then, after all those years that I finally got rid of him.

From what you say, a few years might put you in a better position: the house could be fixed and the children would be older. There's no perfect way to split. I wish you well whatever you decide, but remember that children don't stay as children for very long.

Yes to all of these questions.

He has so many similarities to DS that I think it is highly likely that he has ADHD as well. I suspect that when as a child he struggled with emotional regulation he was spanked by his father, and his mother overcompensated and failed to impose any boundaries on his behaviour. Neither of his parents modelled appropriate conflict and his mother in particular is a massive people pleaser who sees it as a character flaw to actually ask for your own needs to be met. I can see that when DS gets in a dysregulated state H goes into almost a state of panic, which then comes back out as anger.

H’s behaviour towards me has stemmed from the same route. It largely started to be a problem after DS was born and we were adjusting to our lives as new parents. H felt left out that my attention was so focused on DS, and began to “resent my behaviour towards him” - which in reality was such grievous things like falling asleep on the sofa after dinner whilst H washed up and tidied the kitchen. H took this very personally and saw it as me deliberately shutting myself off from him. His conditioning from his mother never to state a need or ask for it to be met meant that he just descended into these frosty silences, and even when I asked him what was wrong, why he was upset he would not talk about because I “must know” what was upsetting him.

I now realise that I let this slide too much, rather than having it out with him, and just accepted that my H did not like me very much now that I wasn’t able to pour all of my energy into him and our relationship. It was seeing him turn this anger and moodiness to DS that made me wake up to the fact that the issue was with him, not me.

I’ve raised all these thoughts and understanding with him over the past few years, but he really struggles to acknowledge that his childhood was as anything less than idilic or that his behaviour and reactions are something that he can and should change. His utter passivity and failure to take steps to understand himself and how his behaviour has affected me and the DCs has frustrated me and led me to lose all respect for him.

I do think he is a decent person. His anger skirts the line between mere dysfunction and abuse. But I absolutely would leave, despite the financial hit and upheaval if I thought that I or the children were unsafe.

They are not emotionally safe in your home because of the abuse he metes out to you and in turn your kids. Your son is diagnosed with ADHD but your h is not and it could well be your man does not have ADHD. He is very much a product of his own dysfunctional and abusive upbringing. He does this also because he can.

Do you really think that such a man would even want 50/50. Often abusive men spout this but they also say it as a way to avoid paying maintenance and use it as a threat against the mother . he’s too selfish and self absorbed and they would interfere with his work and free time.

You’ve lost all respect for this man understandably but why should your dc continue ie to be raised in such a home?. It’s not easier for you to remain with such a man for your own reasons and it won’t help the dc either if you choose to stay with him. What are their childhood memories going to be like?.

It sounds like you understand it to a T. How sad, a lot of people are stuck in old patterns they don’t address.

@AttilaTheMeerkat is right. My own ex loved to talk about 50/50 or even him winning full custody. We haven’t seen him for three years.

He is angry because he is abusive, not because he is angry. Think about what you are also modelling to your children here. He does not because he does not care at all for any of you (only his own self) but you do.

Does your h have a full time job? Most men don’t go for 50/50 because they don’t want to pay for childcare (schools are off 13 weeks a year) or have to find a new gf who will look after the kids 50% of the time. They enjoy their newly found free time to do their hobbies, date, get drunk with friends etc CM is usually cheaper and less hassle than having to do actual parenting like taking the day off when they are sick or being organised and booking school holiday plans in advance. 50/50 means whole days. He can’t pick up from your house after work and drop them off at yours before school so he technically does a night.

Legally a judge would allow a 11/12 year old to choose how much contact they had with each parent. If the children didn’t want to see their dad at all then a judge would accept zero contact. Of course there’s the risk that they are manipulated into zero contact with you but you know the situation best.

I can see how 50/50 would be a financial nightmare too. Imagine having to chase this grumpy abuser for 50% of the school lunch bill or whatever the kids need. It’s a new way to abuse you.

Thank you for your thoughts. I can see why you have commented as you have based on what you have read from my posts.

What I haven’t talked about is the hours that H spends playing various fantasy card games with DS, or how DD almost always asks for H to do her bedtime story and her utter glee when H lets her practice her flips and rolls from his arms. Outside of his difficulty in managing the more stressful sides of parenting, he is an engaged and loving father.

I’ve also not talked about the fact that if one of the DC is upset (not distressed) by ‘dad’s grumpiness’ they can, and do, with my help communicate this to him and H will listen and apologise. So yes, I appreciate that it is not a perfect home environment but the DC are secure enough to deal with it, are able to talk about the less good bits, and are learning quite a lot about why people might behave in ways that upset us and how to deal with it in a heathy way when they do.

I’m also very conscious that they are not having the ideal model of two parents who are close and affectionate to each other, but sorry, life is not perfect and there is no way I could guarantee that I could give them that if H and I did separate.

I would need child arrangements to be 50/50. I could not afford a nanny and I could not do my job if the kids were with me every day during the week.

And no, changing my work is not an option. My work is one of those ‘vocation’ jobs and it is all I have wanted to do since I was 14 years old. I would keep doing my job even if I won the lottery. That is a non-negotiable.

I think they would prefer to live in a calmer home where their mother is also not emotionally preoccupied with her abuser. Material things count for bugger all when the home is unhappy because of their dad’s abuse of their mother and in turn them.

You may like to think they are secure enough to deal with it but they both really are not. This will impact them for the rest of their days particularly if you remain with him. Their dad’s apologies are anything but. No life is not prefect but it is within your power to make life potentially less harmful to you and them. You have a choice re this man, they do not.

BTW was it his idea in the main for you to live so ritually?. If so that was deliberate on his part also to isolate your own self from support.

In your case OP I would push him to engage meaningfully with a range of therapies, as an emergency.

Its not that children need a good relationship modelled to them - what they need is not having a bad one modelled to them. Because it sets the template, and you end either repeating it, or withdrawing from trying - unless you are very committed to unpicking the damage and reprogramming yourself. Im sorry to point it out but it really can be quite a very heavy thing to place on your children to have to deal with later in life.

If he doesnt cope with parenting well now is he really going to want or manage 50/50? Maybe at first, but will that work out if he continues to get so angry? Or perhaps he is as unhappy too and the anger outbursts stem from this, and will be more patient on his own with the children. Also if you do have 50/50 can you organise your work travel around this, do you have some agency over it so you travel in 'his' weeks, that could work? You may need to take a financial hit on the house, all houses will sell at the right price. What is the price of your wellbeing, happiness, and your childrens, is the question to ask. Long drawn-out unhappiness comes with a high price too.

Abusers are not nasty all the time but their nice/nasty cycle is a continuous one. He may well
pkay games with them but he does not treat you his wife with the respect and or love you deserve. No he abuses you and in turn them instead.

You no longer have any respect for him and the kids sees this merely as dads grumpiness when his behaviour is far more than mere grumpiness. It’s a perfect storm of an abusive marriage that should be and is infact over.

I appreciate your thoughts re your job that is one you’ve wanted to do since teen years but can this be done elsewhere rather than just where you are now?.

Why would your current h consider 50/50 if it was to help you in your job?. I doubt if any such arrangement would come to pass anyway because he does not want them around half the week. He could well palm them off to his parents .

That’s rather my point. 50/50 would work, in theory, but I don’t think that H is stable enough in his mental health to cope with parenting solo for that amount of time. I certainly don’t trust that he has the resilience to cope with his own feeling and the DC’s emotions around a separation. Maybe if he makes progress with therapy this would be more of an option in the future.

@AttilaTheMeerkat- I appreciate your intentions. I do understand that staying with DH will have a negative impact on the DC. Please would you read my other comments about why I can’t see that leaving is a viable solution right now and why it would have a detrimental effect on the DC, which might be just as bad as living with H? I’m sure any insights you might have as to how to make this work in the medium term would be helpful.

@AttilaTheMeerkat , sometimes it just isn't possible to immediately up and leave as in OP's case, she is trying to balance out all pros and cons and do what is best for the children

Yes, in an ideal world, a father should never ever yell or shout, or go into frosty sulks, they should 24/7 parent well or not become parents in the first place...and be emotionally mature enough to work on their childhood issues leading to inappropriate anger or withdrawal

But we do not live in an ideal world :-(, much as we wish for it

OP is trying hard to see if the sulks can be handled and managed as her H is a good parent at times and the children adore him when he is 'in a good mood'
She also cannot continue to work and look after her kids as a single mum and has genuine worries about leaving the DC with him 50pc of the time with his sulky moods being unpredictable

OP, the children will be older soon and the solutions will be clearer to you ....this won't always be the situation .....9 and 5 is 12 and 8 in three years.....

And it will just give dad more opportunities to abuse his family. Op already has no respect for her h so what’s another three months, let alone three years, going to do to the op and her kids?.

His sulks are examples of emotional abuse. The kids as well as the op are continually subjected to his nice/nasty cycle of abuse which is a continuous one. No amount of working or home comforts will be able to counteract the abuse he shows them all.

@AttilaTheMeerkatthis is not a zero sum game where walking away from the relationship will swiftly lead to the DC an I leading a stress-free and emotionally stable life. I have thought about this from ever angle and my conclusion is that the stresses and pressures would make life worse, not better. Plus, even if child arrangements were not 50/50, there is no court in the land that would deny some form of contact, which they would then have to deal with on their own.

I left 16 years ago, ds is 22 now, exh originally got eow & a couple of nights after school for 3 hours, this only lasted about a year before his MS got really bad & he spent 10 months in hospital, once he came home I had to stop overnights as he wasn't safe to look after ds. When ds got to 12 he decided himself he would like to start staying overnight occasionally & did for a couple of years before deciding he wanted to live with his dad, that lasted about 6 months before he saw his dad's true colours & decided to leave, he wasn't sure he wanted to move back in with me & went to stay with my mum as we had just lost my dad, it did him good, she managed to get his school attendance improved & it helped give her something to keep her busy, I went to stay when the pandemic hit & we all lived together for 2 years, he met his partner at 18 & within a couple of months moved in with him, they got married a year later.

Hi OP, i hear you, that you are struggling to trust and believe he will make changes
Trust takes a long time to be built back and it is an emotional/intuitive experience (ie we can't "talk" ourselves into trusting someone we have to see consistent action).

The fact he hasn't come clean about his anger to the therapist must be frustrating. How did you find that out? Plus of course 4 sessions is really not enough.

I did read recently that the typical "talking therapy" (just telling someone how you feel) model is not that effective for many men. They prefer something more goal oriented or action based like CBT.

A couple of good sources to look into are : David Burn - he has an excellent free podcast called Feeling Good and many books. You might find it useful yourself.

Also Terrence Real: I don't want to talk about it (Book on male depression).

Even if only you read it, you might gain more understanding and as a result find ways to be more patient and soothing which will again be a good example to the kids and also grow you as a person (without being a doormat of course)

I have had the same experience as you that it is difficult to get men to engaged in reading about issues, but like yours my partner has shown some level of willingness.

Audio books that can be played in the car helped. Making an ultimatum helped! But what helped the most was becoming a Safer Kinder partner so that he felt it was unfair not to make any effort for me.

You mentioned that you have zero expectations of him and that is actually quite soothing (when we surrender the idea we can make another person do stuff) but still feel hurt when he lashes out (totally normal)

I would also recommend you consult the Reddit page "surrendered_wife" based on a self help marriage book aimed at women called The Empowered Wife.

The Reddit page is a discussion group (like this forum) but specifically on tactics to dealing with such situations. Women share their experiences of how to cope mentally in a marriage with someone who acts like yout husband- sometimes loving - sometimes painful and angry. You will hear them talking about Self Care an awful lot. So this is something that you absolutely need to focus on - Practical ways to make You feel better and stay out of the firing line. There is also a good podcast called The Empowered Wife.

All these could help you feel supported and cope even if you eventually decide to leave.

This was me at one time. Married, two young DC, a husband who was selfish, emotionally and financially abusive. I couldn't afford to leave and like you, didn't want to leave my DC alone in his care due to his shouting. He treated me like his personal slave and when I started standing up to him and refusing, he started treating our young teen DDs as his slaves instead.

I knew I had to bide my time until they were older, and save whatever I could, which was never much. My relief started in late 2020 when I was made redundant and I got a large payout as I'd been with the company over 30yrs. I planned whilst I sought a new job. All three of us left in 2021 and moved in to a rented house. It was blissful being able to live our own lives without shouting, silent treatment, abuse, his mess. DDs would make brief visits to their dad but were grown, so they could choose not to stay. I wasted so much of my life on that man. It was a miserable existence and I've no idea how I got through it.

I think giving him more control would lead to more trouble and strife for the OP, not less. Being a so called surrendered wife is not a path she should venture down. His sulks should be ignored by the OP who should further continue to go about her day regardless. The responsibility for his sulks is his and his alone. He has learnt that this works for him and that is why he does this.

Leaving is not easy at all and I have never suggested it is. He being the abuser he is will do everything within his power to make that process as long and drawn out as possible as further "punishment" for you having the gall to leave him. But staying with him is even worse for you in that you all get further downtrodden by him.

Again, do you think that such an inherently selfish man would want his children around half the week given how seemingly very little he does with them now?. And has he directly told you he wants 50-50 access to them?. And if so are you entirely certain he is saying that so as to not avoid paying maintenance. If he was that bothered about his children he could actually choose to not abuse you and in turn them but that is never going to happen. His apologies to you all are meaningless.

Do you have real life support too?.

OP - in the short to medium term I would gather up all paperwork relating to him and the finances, see if you can relocate your job and find out exactly where you stand legally if or when you decide to divorce your H. Knowledge is power, being a surrendered wife is not powerful.