I have had an epiphany - mind blown!

[BonkersConkersandPlonkers]

I'm 50. I've spent much of my adult life single although I have been in a relationship for around 4 years now.

Like many, I was aware of incel, red pill, manosphere, MGTOW and 'dating coaches'... but had never actually encountered it personally, as in witnessed it or experienced any of the more extreme attitudes from men or seen any of the material myself.

Obviously, I'm well versed in 'useless men', weaponised incompetence, man babies (like I say, I spent most off my adult life single) but I'd never witnessed first hand the messages being delivered to men.

A few weeks ago, during a period.of illness, I started watching fb reels whilst ill in bed and now my mind is actually blown!

In late 2019, I started dating someone. It was great at the start - I'd go round after work and he'd run me a bath with candles, cook for me, we'd dance in the living room to Frank Sinatra. I was on cloud 9.

Lockdown hit, we 'bubbled' and then the real him started to emerge...

I'm not going to go into detail because this isn't that sort of post.

I ended it because there were inconsistencies and it wasn't the sort of relationship I wanted to be in. I was gutted really because we were perfect for each other on paper and I'd fancied him for a few years if truth be known. But he clearly didn't actually like me very much at all. It made no sense. He'd pay for expensive tickets to the ballet, he'd cook, he'd be charming in public, put his jacket around my shoulders if it was cold but then he was totally different behind closed doors.

He seemed utterly disinterested in me. I couldn't fathom why he would go out with someone and 'court' someone he didn't appear to even like!

Anyway, we dated for longer than we would have given the strange days of lockdown and I regarded him almost as a curiosity. I turned it into a game with myself - predicting what he'd do and say next or how he'd respond to me etc. I found it fascinating and baffling. It didn't affect how I saw myself. It was almost amusing seeing what he'd come out with next.

Anyway, lockdown ended, I ended the relationship and a few months later met my now partner. When it ended, he didn't seem bothered and then told me that I hadn't been 'grateful enough' for all the things he'd done for me. I reflected on that - I had. I'd thanked him, I'd treated him as often as he'd treated me. What he meant was I hadn't been subservient, adoring, deferent.

He's the only man I've personally been involved with who was this extreme.

So anyway, I've seen some of this stuff because I've been getting a lot of 'response' type videos on reels where other men show the sort of videos these men are watching and then rip them apart.

Everything about that entire relationship now makes complete sense! He did mention once, when we'd been talking about our recent and historical relationship experiences, that he'd watched some online dating coach advice but I had no idea what that actually meant! I mean some of the advice is literally, "Don't ever be nice to/compliment/spend time with/admit you like a woman you're in a relationship with. That makes you vulnerable and vulnerability makes you weak and women don't want a weak man. They want a man they can depend on who they can trust to he strong and not falter under pressure..." blah blah blah.

I mean, I can follow their 'logic' but it's absolutely bonkers!

I suppose I just really wondered how many other women were actually aware of the content these men are consuming? How many women have seen it for themselves?

I found that an interesting comparison.

When you have been hurt by relationships, it is very natural to retreat and focus on want you want.

Both genders are wanting more respect. And it is socially acceptable to be the strong woman, forging alone. But the male does cut a more pathetic figure and becomes more succeptible to Andrew Tate-type narratives.

The old treat em mean keep em keen has been around since I was a teenager (first time I heard the expression) and certainly long before that.

It was around the era of men publicly selling ‘advice’ to other men along those lines and selling books (this was before internet reels were a thing, early 00’s).

I remember a guy I was friends with who I suspected had a crush on me appearing to be OTT keen on my female friend and ignoring me when we went out together etc and generally being a dick. He’d told me that he was consuming this rubbish so I assumed he was clumsily following this pathetic advice and inwardly rolled my eyes at him. (I believe he was on the spectrum so I didn’t really resent him over it, and he was really young)

Stuff like that never worked on me tho as if I even had a hint that a guy I liked preferred another woman then I’d bin him off. I’ve never been competitive over men and if they showed signs of interest in someone else I’d leave them to it as I’m worth more than that and the fact that it was a ruse would indicate that they were dishonest and manipulative so how could you trust them in a relationship?

I think there's probably similar numbers of bitter men with toxic views of women as there are bitter women with toxic views of men. The biggest difference is that the men can be way more of a physical threat to the women than vice-versa.

Isn't "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" pretty much the main theme of The Rules which was written by, and for, women?

I think this is why I am single. I hate mind games, utterly hate them and my last relationship showed me that men neither want a woman to 'take care of' no more than they want a woman who can take care of herself. Sadly my now ex realised that I earned more than him and he just could not take it. I tried to do everything 50/50 but he resented me in the end so played games with my mind instead as a form of control. Honestly I think if you meet and stay with someone and grow with them from your teens or 20's fine but after that there is little point. I have decided I dont want a relationship anyway. Companionship later in life when I am an empty nester but that is it.

I think it's like everything that gets picked up on because it rolls easily off the tongue as 'fact'.

Eg the one who smelt it dealt it

Probably doesn't have much basis in fact.

I have no idea who came up with the expression or why. But if women came up with it, I'd imagine the premise was more along the lines of, "Don't always be instantly available," "Don't make yourself subservient," or, "Dont give more of yourself than you can afford to lose." I don't think it actually meant 'be cruel' because I don't see how that would be a successful dating strategy for anyone.

Not always being instantly available, showing someone you have other stuff going on in your life, keep your own friends, have boundaries are all good advice but probably fo feel 'mean to some men. Certainly according to these videos/dating coaches. But that's good advice for everyone - male and female.

Criticising a woman for not being young, slim, pretty or subservient enough isn't comparable neither is ensuring someone knows their place through threats and abuse. And t isn't going to keep someone 'keen' useless what you're actually going for is a trauma bond.

i think a lot comes from entrenched misogyny where these men see women as inherently “less than” and not real people. Then they are attracted to them and can’t reconcile the two. They want sex so play nice but don’t actually want to be friends with their partners. Then a bunch of Neanderthals on the internet give them instructions.

I think you need to understand that most men who behave in the way you're describing - particularly if they're in your age bracket - are behaving like that because they're arseholes, not because they've been watching terrible pick-up artist / manosphere / incel content on the internet.

People have been doing the kind of thing you're talking about forever, long before the internet ever existed.

Staying with someone 'out of curiosity to see what they did next' is fucking weird behaviour on your part, to be honest.

Well yes it probably was fucking weird. I'll own that. But I think a lot of people did fucking weird things or made fucking weird choices during lockdown. It's not really the point of the thread though.

And, yes, I would agree with you regarding most men in my age bracket but that one in particular told me that he'd been reading/watching dating coaches online. I just had no idea what sort of things these men were promoting. I actually thought at the time, "Well, if you're following dating coaches, why aren't you listening to them? Why are you behaving like this?"

I just had no idea that the things he was saying and doing had come directly from these dating coaches.

The mantra a lot of these men adopt is, "If you want to catch a fish, you ask a fisherman not the fish," which is just the most ludicrous analogy and explains why there are so many angry men.

They want sex so play nice but don’t actually want to be friends with their partners

I think that's probably very true for some.

I just wondered what makes some men swallow this nonsense hook, line and sinker rather than see it for the divisive bollocks it is.

Yeah, I think thebmain difference is that men are angry with women about it and women aren't really angry with men. They just quietly decide not to bother any more.

Both genders are wanting more respect. And it is socially acceptable to be the strong woman, forging alone. But the male does cut a more pathetic figure and becomes more succeptible to Andrew Tate-type narratives.

I think the difference there is what that respect looks like to each sex.

To most women, respect looks like equity and equality.

To the men who follow this stuff, respect looks a lot like deference.

Isn’t it more likely that he’s naturally emotionally fuckwitted rather than he learned it from videos?

I mean, he may have picked up the candlelit bath, dancing to Sinatra etc from dating coaches but the emotional weirdness is likely his own.

Have you not just done the same tho?

It's empathy. Men don't encourage empathy in each other and see it as weak, when it is possibly the most important human emotion if you don't want a world run by a demented desspot like Trump.

Men don't read (grows empathy) other than other men who think men are the best because they themselves are men, so they also don't grow critical thinking skills. This makes them easier to manipulate and lead around by the nose, which is all together how people (men) fall into far right ideology.

FWIW
I enjoy this guys anti-influencer channel about relationships - short, chirpy, science based.
www.instagram.com/drmaxbutterfield/

Hi OP,

I can relate to your lightbulb moment. In my 20s (nearly fifty now) I lived with a horrible man who made me feel like I was going crazy - despite having an excellent memory for detail he kept telling me that things had not happened as I'd remembered them. He involved his family and friends telling them I had mental health problems. They flicked around trying to support me. He monitored all my activity and the effort of trying to stop him became so exhausting I lost sight of what was acceptable to me. He physically beat me yet convinced me that he wasn't violent.

I did leave him and recovered fully and moved on from all the abuse.

However now terms like gaslighting, manipulation and coercive control are used frequently and discussed - initially it made me think back to this relationship and reflect on it. It was more just "oh that's what was happening there" and then I moved on again. (I now have a lovely husband who I trust implicitly.)

So I don't think there is anything weird about your position here.

With regards to the material you're describing, I haven't seen any of it. I wish I could avoid it forever but given I'm raising a girl I should probably inform myself. Sigh.

I think there are also people (men and women) who can be very performative with any date or time together they arrange. It can be a wonderful evening out, trip somewhere, afternoon together, and you will naturally believe it's about you, and a way for the other person to show how they feel about you. If you didn't know better, you would naturally interpret things this way.
But after dating a few folks like this, I realised it was about them achieving and essentially topping themselves. I have some lovely memories, but it wasn't about me or us.

They're both great. There's also a guy, can't remember his name, who sings his reactions 😁

I'm interested in OP's ruminations. If you're not, move on.

"The mantra a lot of these men adopt is, "If you want to catch a fish, you ask a fisherman not the fish," which is just the most ludicrous analogy"

And it also clearly shows how they look at women: as objects to be caught and consumed/used.

We're not human beings in their eyes, and women can sense that.

There was a story about this on EastEnders. The vile tripe they spew out turned this young lad into a right so and so.
Women's mags have been spewing out the 'treat them mean, keep them keen' advice for years but none of it was abusive or outright insulting to men. It was more about learning to respect/protect ourselves and so on.
I studied Young Men and Masculinities at Uni and yeah, they are having a hard time trying to find out where they fit in now. They are no longer the bread winners and have lost that 'edge' Women have as much power as they do. It's no wonder they feel emasculated and now need to find a new identity or power. A well balanced young man will not find a problem with this and thankfully, that's what I'm finding with my young son's cohort. I think the problems start when the parents are perhaps not on an equal footing and are influenced by them.
Sorry for the lecture. It's just a really interesting subject.

When I was at university, I did my final year project on the construction of femininities. Half way through, I realised that the construct of masculinities would have been far more interesting for the reasons you give.

And that was nearly 30 years ago.

I've been aware of the basic rhetoric for a long time but the content of these videos and the specific messages boys and men are being fed are something else.

I would, tbh.

My daughter is 20 and she has a lovely boyfriend who, in turn, has lovely parents but neither of them are immune to this influence.

The extent of it is disturbing.