Will she ever listen?

[OnceMoreIntoTheBreachDearFriends]

Be prepared - it will be a long one! I really need some advice about my relationship with my mum. For context, I didn't have a great childhood/early adulthood. My dad was an abusive alcoholic who died when I was 13, I was bullied relentlessly right up until uni and my first job - I now know due to undiagnosed ASD (diagnosed at 35), and my first long-term relationship involved physical, emotional and sexual abuse. I'm now 40.

My mum came from nothing herself and had a meteoric rise up the career ladder after my dad died, which meant she was away a lot and neglected me emotionally, but spoiled me financially. She was also hyper-critical even then, e.g. comments about my weight, when I got 99% on an exam she asked which question I got wrong. I think she pretty much tried to get me to live the life she always wanted, so I've never been able to make my own decisions - she got me my first job in a sector I wasn't even interested in, she persuaded me to buy a flat at 22 because it was a status thing and 'the done thing'. The consequences of me not doing what she wanted would have been arguing, then sulking and refusing to speak to me - not worth the hassle.

Some more recent examples include humiliating me on my birthday day out for getting drunk, in front of friends and family, calling me embarrassing, etc. (I wasn't). Also the night before my birthday I was feeling a bit low and instead of reassuring me she sat me down and told me 'sort my life out' - I have no idea what she means other than I know I need a new job, but I'm in a niche career where few and far between roles are advertised. When I met my now ex (tradie) and was really happy, she still had to get in that she'd prefer me with a doctor or lawyer. It's just constant nit-picking and needling, and I can't even physically escape as she lives round the corner and it forever calling in.

I think I've done pretty well in life considering all of the adversity I've faced, but even I wanted to do better - I was supposed to be the cleverest child the school had ever seen - but life and mental health issues got in the way. But she wanted a millionaire lawyer daughter living in a mansion with her top surgeon husband. What she got is a Russel Group, masters educated, home owning (albeit a 3-bed semi with a mortgage) professional daughter who'll never be the top dog at work because it's not the person I am - but is that really so bad?! There are so much worse things I can be.

Others around me can see it happening but won't speak to her as to be honest, like me, they're frightened of her. It's her way or no way and she's got worse as she's getting older (she's 66). I just can't see a way out - I feel if I confront her we will just argue. But I can't carry on like this. She thinks I need therapy as I still haven't dealt with past events - truth is I have, and it's her who is the ongoing issue (confirmed previously by therapists but she refused to take it on board). No wonder I have low self-esteem and self-worth, and think I'm not good enough when I'm being treated like this!

If you've made it this far, thank you for reading! There's so many more examples I could give but I'll leave it there for now.

I think you need to express your boundaries to your Mum.
It sounds like you are doing well in your career.
I think counselling sessions would be beneficial to you.
She sounds as though she's jealous of you....so is trying to bring you down.
I think you are spending far too much time on what she thinks of you. I think you need to spend more time thinking about how much you've achieved.
I think you could be happier/achieve more without her in your head.
Definitely go for counselling.

You say your mum has always been hyper-critical and is getting worse so the short answer is no she will likely ever listen or change.

You also say there is no way out, however you have the choice of how much contact you wish to have with someone who is continually criticising and bringing you down. Surround yourself instead with people who support you and celebrate the positive things you have done with your life rather than someone who depletes you.

The issue I have is that it's very hard to spend less time with her - for example we are on the same weekly quiz team and already have two holidays booked for this year (thankfully one of them is part of a large group). I have asked previously for space but as above she just comes to my house regardless!

Get a new quiz team.
Cancel the holiday.
Ask her to ask in advance before coming over. If she turns up unannounced then say it’s not convenient.
Don’t argue. You won’t change her. Limit the contact and maintain boundaries. If she kicks off go lower contact.

Your mum has no boundaries and your relationship with her is totally enmeshed and unhealthy. Your social life seems to always include her so, if possible, you should seek out a different social circle.

Do you enjoy the holidays with her? If not, just stop going with her. If she comes to your house regardless, even when you have asked for space, don't open the door. If she has her own key, change the locks.

Most mothers would be proud of what you have achieved, academically and career-wise, but it's obvious that nothing you do will be good enough for her. She is toxic and sounds narcissistic as she expects you to be exactly like her. You aren't though. You are better and nicer than her.

@thepariscrimefiles I do largely enjoy the holidays - I'm a little apprehensive about the group holiday though as it's with friends and family for my 40th (although that was Dec 25) and some of the girls enjoy a drink - she will judge me if I join in! We've just spent two weeks cooped up sharing a room at an AI and then a weekend away with friends last week (which I didn't want to go on) so I think things have come to a head when we've spent all of our time together. I work from home as well and short of drawing the blinds all day she can see if I'm home through the front window.

I certainly wouldn’t share a room or go on holiday with her. I think you need to assert yourself more or she will get worse as she gets older. Do you not have any siblings or does she have friends? Knock the weekly quiz thing on the head and go out and make a new group of friends. Take the key back if she has one and just say no to her even if she sulks.

It's been going on for so long that I wouldn't know how to stop those things without really upsetting her. I've already declined one holiday, ostensibly due to cost but not really. No I'm an only child - she has tons of friends but only has a couple without a partner or grandchildren and she doe holiday with them too (she's retired).

The quiz was my thing that evolved from me and my friends going, I suspect none of them would go if I stopped (and they'd never win anymore - yes I'm blowing my own trumpet for once)

Boundaries OP! You have none where she is concerned and she's trampling all over you. Get counselling for yourself to help you build your assertiveness and learn some healthy ways of protecting yourself from her. Start by not being so available to her and take back her door key to your home or change your locks. Then stop going on holiday with her. You spend far too much time together and she sounds utterly toxic.

There is a brilliant book I’d recommended - children of emotionally immature parents. Also, somewhere on MN there is a thread of people with very similar parents, me included. You have my sympathies - it’s exhausting.

I can’t seem to link the thread but a simple
search should find it.

It will be very hard for you to enforce any boundaries after giving in to her all your life, so think you need to go no contact for at least 6 months to break the cycle.

You mentioned therapy, so can you find a therapist to help you untangle your life from your mother's and gain control.

Take a few first steps and give yourself a reward for each boundary you raise and enforce or step you take to break free.

Can you afford to have a reasonaby high fence and lockable gates so she can't just call in? Or move to working from an office space so you aren't at home? It may even be that you need to move house and not let her have your new address.

Cancel the holiday and go on a solo trip for a chance to breathe as a reward.

Can you enlist your friends to support you. You said they've seen how she is so see if your friends would move the quiz team to a new venue. I'm sure you can find a different pub that runs a quiz night. Just tell her you've all agreed you won't be going any more, and the current team is being disbanded. Then try out different places each week until you find somewhere you all like. Or don't do a quiz if it feels too awkward to exclude her from a quiz team, but make plans to meet for different activities each week, or just trying different pubs or restaurants. Build space for your own interests and dont telll her what you are doing on any given day/night.

I think at some point you will need to tell her you can't take her constant commentary and criticism on your life and choices and need space to build a life of your own. You know you have built a successful life, have friends who care about you and the only major thing causing unhappiness or bringing you down is her, so you're taking a break to consider if you want her negativity in your life any more.

However, if you aren't ready for that confrontation yet just have it as a goal when you feel more confident and have your support system in place. She likely won't accept what you say so don't expect any words to change her, but just have it as a confirmation that you are taking control of your own life.

I hope you can start breaking free, as you deserve to have a happy positive life.

This!

Buy a house further away from hers. Make sure she doesn't have a key for it. Disentangle your life from hers.

Counselling would probably help you to do the above.

You say you can’t say certain things without “upsetting her” - but nothing changes if nothing changes - so I think you will have to accept upsetting her.

I really do understand how scary and impossible that will feel for you.

Can you work through what would actually happen if she did get upset? What’s the absolute worst outcome?

I can understand how you’ve been conditioned to never cross her - so this will possibly be something that has never been part of your thinking.

OP

re your comment
"It's been going on for so long that I wouldn't know how to stop those things without really upsetting her".

This is all a part of the conditioning you have received at the hands of your abusive narcissistic mother who has enmeshed you. And really such disordered of thinking people are incapable of being upset in the usual sense. Narcissistic rage at non compliance yes, you unbalancing her facade management yes, upset no. Apart from her going mad at you and that seems to you to be all too powerful, what else can she realistically do other than shout?. To her, you are really an extension of her and only thinks of you as such. Looking good to others is all important and that is why you were railroaded into a career that you were not interested in or buying a flat you did not want. You had no say and you still do not whilst she is around.

She will never listen to you and you need to let go now fully of any residual hope that she will change. This is who she is and its not your fault she is the ways she is either. Her own family did that to her. Look at her childhood OP, that often gives clues.

She has not given a fig about upsetting you; this woman has no empathy whatsoever for anybody. And she has no friends for good reason too. And her abuse of you will continue so long as you do not state no more to being abused and walk away from her entirely. You owe her nothing, least of all a relationship here.

Indeed cancel all future holidays with her, find a different quiz team and rebuild your life without her in it. Move away; you need to put physical as well as mental distance now between you and your abusive mother.

Find out who you really are behind the artifice your mother created for you with only she in mind. That is not going to be easy but with both time and therapy behind you this should become easier. DO take a look at the Out of the Fog website along with Daughters of Narcissistic mothers. Look at Dr Ramani on Youtube and read Children of the Self Absorbed by Nina W Brown.

@AttilaTheMeerkat she actually has tons of friends but I suspect that they are just as scared of her as I and the rest of my family are - it's always whatever she wants.

I don't want to cancel the group holiday as it's to celebrate my birthday, but it's not like I can uninvite her! I'm the one who founded the quiz team and am the only original member - if I stopped going nobody else will go (they are her friends as well as mine) and that is then spoiling a social occasion for others.

As for moving, I simply can't afford to. I couldn't go far anyway as I already live in the cheapest part of the country and can't afford my expenses to go up but I have significant debt still from the previous flat which is now sold. Plus I find it hard to make friends so I wouldn't want to move away from the ones I have. The rest of my family is here too and are supportive of me.

I guess the advice I need is how to deal with her without doing anything drastic

Quick Update: I had said yesterday that I thought we needed to talk. She has responded and said she doesn't want to talk right now as she is too upset and angry (probably for the best tbh as she might leave me alone!)

I've responded and long story short said sorry I've upset her but she needs to realise the impact she is having on me, how can I ever be happy when nothing I ever do will ever be good enough for her. She hasn't replied and I doubt she will tbh but I refuse to be the first one to give in

These people are acquaintances or flying monkeys and/or are very much like her in terms of personality; these are not true friends in the usual sense of the word. They're afraid of her and she will also use them for her own ends like she has with you.

I would urge you to stop responding to her; she wants a response from you and she knows she has you then. Drop the rope entirely. You do not need to talk!. And please stop with apologising to her; what have you done wrong here?. If anyone should be saying sorry it is her but that will never happen. She will never apologise nor accept any responsibility for her actions.

Talking is the usual way of resolving problems but in your dysfunctional family of origin the usual rulebook of familial relations goes out the window. In your family of origin it's her way or no way; you are not allowed an opinion of your own and your dissent will not be tolerated. OP, going no contact with her now will be the only way you will find a sense of peace.

Where is your dad here OP; I ask only as he is not mentioned

Hopefully she will not respond to you further; that is indeed the best outcome here. The trash has indeed taken itself out!. I would also now block her from being able to contact you in any way.

I am so very sorry to read about your late father: have seen what you;ve written about him now.

I think I've done pretty well in life considering all of the adversity I've faced, but even I wanted to do better - I was supposed to be the cleverest child the school had ever seen - but life and mental health issues got in the way. But she wanted a millionaire lawyer daughter living in a mansion with her top surgeon husband. What she got is a Russel Group, masters educated, home owning (albeit a 3-bed semi with a mortgage) professional daughter who'll never be the top dog at work because it's not the person I am - but is that really so bad?! There are so much worse things I can be.

I say this diffidently, OP, but life isn’t a race and life isn’t an exam. What you’re lacking is inward peace. May I suggest that you find the time and the space and, dare I say a therapist, to find the real you inside all of this?

You’ve had a really tough time. You’ve been dancing to someone else’s tune and running someone else’s race all your life. Stop. Take a breath. Let’s space into your life.

OP

re your comment:
"I don't want to cancel the group holiday as it's to celebrate my birthday, but it's not like I can uninvite her! I'm the one who founded the quiz team and am the only original member - if I stopped going nobody else will go (they are her friends as well as mine) and that is then spoiling a social occasion for others".

You can certainly uninvite he and you can celebrate your birthday without her; you just think you cannot because of the FOG and associated conditioning she dumped on you to put her first with your own needs dead last.

Put yourself first now, not others. You can restart another quiz team without these people in it. Be tired here of being the last person who matters because you bloody well do matter!!!.

Say no more to being abused at her hands because currently you're still her puppet being controlled by her.

Does she live near you… or is it more accurate to say you have chosen to live near her.
You are completely enmeshed. her friends are your friends?? You’ve been given advice about distance but pushed back on it. What you want is her to change, apologise and completely accept responsibility for your feelings. NONE of that will happen.

You say you can’t but why not? She won’t change. You can leave the quiz group. You can uninvite her. Don’t let fear of how she might kick off rule your decisions. And don’t bother trying to make her understand how she’s affecting you. Take away the power she has to affect you. Grey rock. Hang up if she starts. You need to set boundaries. What level of contact are you happy with? Decide what you want.
Oh and if she’s that upset then she won’t want to come on the birthday trip. So get in now and say it’s best she doesn’t come!!

Honestly, OP, the only behaviour you can change here is your own. You sound incredibly enmeshed with your mother, and far too dependent on her opinion of you for a 40 year old woman.

You're a disappointment to her, yes, but that's her issue, not yours. The only opinion of you that matters is your own. She's completely powerless over you unless you give her the power. She was also completely powerless over you at 22. You have consistently made choices about major life decisions to appease her. Own those, and stop making those choices. Therapy would certainly help figure out why an economically independent 40 year old is so determined to appease her mother. .

'Will she ever listen?' is the wrong question. 'Am I prepared to work to make myself less dependent on her opinion of me?' would be a better one.