Overheard something horrible and not sure if I should say something

[Overheardandconfused]

I recently travelled (solo) back to my home country with my new baby so that my mother and her family could have some quality time with the baby. It was a big effort in terms of money and time but I was happy to do it so that my baby could get to know my family, especially as a lot of them are in their 80s now.

My mother and I have a complicated relationship, she didn’t have a great childhood and is a bit emotionally immature - frequently cuts people off, will often “love bomb” me and then withdraw that love over minor incidents that she takes very personally (I have clear memories of her doing this to me when I was a small child and being very confused - eg stopped talking to me when I was about 7 because I told her she had some spinach in her teeth (not maliciously just as an FYI)).

Anyway, as an adult I have done the self work to not carry on these patterns in my life, and despite her difficulty regulating her emotions she has always outwardly been very loving in the good times and I felt we have a basic like and love for each other, even if it sometimes gets tense.

So, after three weeks in my home country, a lot of time spent with her, there was a minor incident with regards to logistics of travel - just a minor thing that I expressed frustration over in the form of a text - text said something like “where are you, we were ready to leave an hour ago and baby is getting unsettled, hurry up!”.

I thought nothing of it but later that night she got very drunk and I overheard her talking to her sister - content along the lines of “I hate the way she acts towards me as a mother. I know she just wants to harm me.. she has a fake idea of how hard off she is” general ranting about me that was so full of contempt. For her part my aunt was standing up for me and kept repeating “I have seen absolutely no evidence of any of that!”

I was absolutely floored by this. I would understand if she was just generally bitching about me “she was so annoying and impatient over the weekend”! Type thing - but it was the all encompassing, relationship fracturing nature of her complaints, particularly the idea that I am out to maliciously harm her (couldn’t be further from the truth) that has shaken the core of my trust in her/our relationship.

The next day she very slowly warmed up to me and put on a big act of saying goodbye at the airport - I didn’t say I had overheard anything and pretended everything was fine as we were staying with extended family and I didn’t want to cause a scene.

My question is, do I tell her that I heard her? I would really like to address it. How do I go about bringing it up?

I know she will want to come and stay with us over summer and she desperately wants a relationship with her grandchild - but after hearing all that I am concerned about her ability to foster healthy relationships long term, I have heard of “grey rock” and wonder if that’s a better idea here.

I was thinking a short text to say “I just want you to know that I overheard you talking to Shirley that night and I was really confused and hurt by what you said”.

Thoughts/advice?

What you have written here suggests that you mother has some sort of personality disorder (the extreme/disproportionate reactions to minor non-events), and she is performing emotions either for you or for her sister or for both. I'm not sure talking it out with her would necessarily give you understanding and closure. If you get therapy to get over the childhood issues, you might want to get some more to determine how best you move forward from this - either with or without your mother. Sorry for the upset this has caused you, but I'm sure, from what you have already said, this isn't the first time there has been an unexpected (unhinged) reaction to something minor.

know she will want to come and stay with us over summer and she desperately wants a relationship with her grandchild -
what type of relationship do you think she wants with your child, given she is so awful to you now, and when you were a child?
why would you want to expose your child to her?
id be more concerned she has malicious motives and will love bomb your child and try and make them favour her in order to hurt you.

Read up on narcissism. Particularly covert narcissism. Narcissist are perpetual victims. and to be a victim you need a villain. sometimes she’ll make you the villain. When you are agreeing with her about someone or something else making her a victim, you probably get on great.

Now obviously I can’t diagnose your mother off one post but like a pp said, her behaviour sounds very out of the ordinary and like a personality disorder.

if you have brought your baby to see her, you will be getting attention - this means people are victimising her by paying attention to you. Now she can’t say this because she knows people will be aghast if she says ‘the baby and my daughter are quaking attention away from me and my desires/plans’. So instead she acts difficult, gets a reaction from you she can then use your response to play the victim.

you want your mum in your life because that is a normal thing to want - don’t listen to people who say ‘if she’s that bad, why would you want her in your baby’s life?’
but she isn’t going to change. She will also likely start trying to turn your kid against you. She won’t be respecting your wishes with them either - you having a different opinion to her makes her the victim in her mind (which is what she wants) so she will have the justification (in her mind) to sneak behind your back and feed them sugar or whatever.

I’d have it out with her if it was me. No way I could I ignore this. I’d also be very wary about too much of a relationship between her and your children. Remember what she did to you, and how it made you feel…

@Overheardandconfused

Grey Rock OP.

There will always be some drama created and you will be walking on eggshells unsure if what the next slight will be

It will never change. Protect your sanity and child(ren) by going Grey Rock.

It sounds as though she might have a mental illness. You could bring it up with her, or perhaps you could talk to your aunt about it and see what her opinion is?

Keep her away from your daughter.

Do you want her filling your daughter's head with such poisonous ideas about you?

Get therapy if you need to, but you need to protect your daughter from her.

Protect your daughter and keep her away. Def grey rock.

I'd send the text. The response you get will help you decide what to do long term.

I think the critical thing here is to make a decision about whether you want your baby to have a relationship with your mother. From what you have posted, a relationship with your mother is always going to be troublesome for you, and is likely to be difficult for your daughter. As you live in separate countries, the decision is easier, whatever you decide. I don't think there us a right or wrong answer. It's about what you are prepared to tolerate for yourself and your baby.

You should be protecting your child from this woman, not exposing them to her.

My mother is like this, I believe she has a personality disorder, I have had similar issues with her talking about me behind my back.

You need to tell her and your auntie that you heard and that you are not prepared to host her in the summer.

In the past I have not brought up what happened and it made me look petty when I wouldn't see her. When you bring up the hurtful behaviour other relatives know why you are keeping your distance. I just found it so much easier when I was distancing myself that people knew why.

She doesn’t have the ability to see the world through anyone else’s eyes. You will never ever get anywhere with bringing this up - she will turn it around in your, play the victim, blame shift, deflect, triangulate if there’s willing participants and if none of that works (and in her world, this behaviour working means you apologising to her for being such an awful daughter) then she will send in her flying monkeys.

Saying anything will get you nowhere sadly. Your aunt sound rather safer

Yes I guess this is my thinking. If I backtrack on the summer holiday plans without explaining that I overheard her then it seems like I’m just being mean - whereas if she knows the specific reason then she can reflect on that.

I do appreciate everyone’s comments regarding protecting my daughter but we live literally on the other side of the world - the most we will be likely to see her is annually for a few weeks.

@Devonshiregal from my armchair psychology it’s not that us getting attention upset her because I think she sees me and my baby as an extension of herself so attention for us is great - I think where the wheels fell off is that I was giving other family members attention (eg sharing special moments with my aunt) that she observed and then felt left out of, as well as the original trigger which was the minor logistical conflict that day.

Yes my aunt is truly a gem and I was very glad to spend that time with her as she’s into her 80s now. I could tell she was quite upset by the conversation as I came down in the middle of night to make baby a bottle and she was awake eating toast as she hadn’t been able to sleep (she obviously didn’t say why and didn’t realise I had heard anything but clearly she was anxious!). It was an extremely horrible end to what had been a lovely trip - knowing that she was upset and trying to put on a happy face and me knowing what was going on but pretending I didn’t to ensure it didn’t get any more awkward for her!!

If you dont live in the same country then just go through the motions. She sounds too emotionally disturbed and may be too old to do anything about it.

Do read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward.

If she is too toxic/difficult or otherwise batshit for YOU to deal with, it's the SAME deal for your child too. I would keep yourself, let alone your child, well away from her going forward. She is not an emotionally safe enough person to be around and it is not your fault she is the ways she is. Her own family did that to her.

Telling her that you overheard what she said is a waste of time. She will deny it and otherwise disbelieve you. She could well turn it around on you.

Be the mother she was not to your child now. She had a choice when it came to you and she chose to dole out similar as what was done to her. She never wanted to seek the necessary help.

If she sees you and your baby as extensions of herself, this is narcissism at work. Again if she is narcissistic in terms of personality (and chances are she does have some form of untreated and untreatable personality disorder) then it is not possible to have a relationship with someone this disordered of thinking.
Narcissists make for being deplorably bad parents and they are not any better at being grandparent figures either.

DO NOT visit her annually for a few weeks every year. If she cannot behave civilly then she gets to see none of you. SHE IS INCAPABLE OF REFLECTION (sorry to shout that but it's true). She has NO empathy nor insight and you are but bit part players with she being at the centre of her universe.

You also need to put more mental distance now between she and you.

Keep in touch with people like your aunt. You need radiators in your life, not drains upon them.

OP
re your comment
"I do appreciate everyone’s comments regarding protecting my daughter but we live literally on the other side of the world - the most we will be likely to see her is annually for a few weeks".

And this is far more than enough time for emotional harm to be done to your child right in front of your very eyes. It can be a look, a pinch etc. It will do your child no favours for her to see you as mum being disrespected by her nan. The best thing you can do for yourself as well as your child here is to stay well away from your mother going forward. No more to you visiting her in tow with your child.

You have likely also received the Special Training such parents give to put her first with your own needs and wants dead last.

The technique grey rock can be emotionally exhausting to do long term and is not that effective against narcissists.

You do not mention your dad at all here; is he still around?.

thing is with people ive had similar with, even if you bring it up they will try to say x or go round in circles on why they think there correct etc,

I was married to a covert narcissist for 25 years and I'd say she's ticking a few boxes there. I thought it immediately that I read it and then saw others had suggested it too. The cutting you off for the most minor of things is typical. My mother is the same and I think that's how I ended up unwittingly marrying someone like it too, it was normal to me. You're either on a pedestal or you're off it, love bombed or ignored.

She'll have warmed up to you before you left because of dd, if you didn't have her I would bet my bottom dollar that she wouldn't have bothered. You are useful to her because she wants a relationship with dd, as long as you are useful you are worth keeping around. Of course as a narcissist she would need to be the centre of your attention and not like it if she wasn't!

It all stems from having no real self esteem and that's what I'd try to keep in mind. She won't be able to cope with being wrong, she won't be able to empathise with you, she won't have remorse for what she did to you in your childhood and if you try to bring any of it up she will be the victim. There is absolutely no point in bringing up what you overheard, that is one thing I can absolutely promise you.

Basically it's like emotionally she's still stuck in childhood because of the trauma she went through. Being aware and picking your battles carefully is the way forward IMO. I don't think you need to cut her out completely unless that is what you want but I wouldn't leave your dd alone with her for any extended period of time. Who knows how things will go. You might find she spoils dd mercilessly so she can always be popular with her or if she doesn't think dd shows her enough attention that she loses all interest in her. Having very low expectations makes it easier to deal with. Being far away is a godsend.

I was married to a covert narcissist. If she is one of them, there is absolutely no way she would be receptive to feedback or a constructive conversation - it affects their fragile sense of self far too much, and that's all they've got.

Thank you for that thoughtful response! Much to think about. And I agree on the being nice again due to DD, I could almost physically see her battling against impulse to ignore me to pretend to still be loving on the final day 😆 (have to laugh or you’ll cry!).

I have basically no expectation that saying I overheard her will result in a change / apology - it’s more so that she knows I have caught her out and have a real “grievance” against her - in the hope this somehow stalls a bit of the inevitable accusations that it’s about not loving her - if that makes sense? If I can just say, listen I overheard you saying this about me and I need some space. Otherwise the guilt trips will commence. Maybe they will anyway!

I am just completely floored because whilst I knew she was emotionally deregulated, during her patterns of withdrawing love and then coming back to me I always assumed the narrative in her head would have been related to the subject of offence or just generally feeling overwhelmed with feeling and not knowing how to communicate it properly and thus withdrawing.

I never ever imagined that she had this totally two faced/unhinged idea that I am out to HARM her! I just don’t even know how to move forward with this information.

She sounds a bit unhinged.
I wouldn't have her visiting.
I think you let her and your aunt know you heard the conversation and its best she doesn't visit.