Overheard something horrible and not sure if I should say something

[Overheardandconfused]

I recently travelled (solo) back to my home country with my new baby so that my mother and her family could have some quality time with the baby. It was a big effort in terms of money and time but I was happy to do it so that my baby could get to know my family, especially as a lot of them are in their 80s now.

My mother and I have a complicated relationship, she didn’t have a great childhood and is a bit emotionally immature - frequently cuts people off, will often “love bomb” me and then withdraw that love over minor incidents that she takes very personally (I have clear memories of her doing this to me when I was a small child and being very confused - eg stopped talking to me when I was about 7 because I told her she had some spinach in her teeth (not maliciously just as an FYI)).

Anyway, as an adult I have done the self work to not carry on these patterns in my life, and despite her difficulty regulating her emotions she has always outwardly been very loving in the good times and I felt we have a basic like and love for each other, even if it sometimes gets tense.

So, after three weeks in my home country, a lot of time spent with her, there was a minor incident with regards to logistics of travel - just a minor thing that I expressed frustration over in the form of a text - text said something like “where are you, we were ready to leave an hour ago and baby is getting unsettled, hurry up!”.

I thought nothing of it but later that night she got very drunk and I overheard her talking to her sister - content along the lines of “I hate the way she acts towards me as a mother. I know she just wants to harm me.. she has a fake idea of how hard off she is” general ranting about me that was so full of contempt. For her part my aunt was standing up for me and kept repeating “I have seen absolutely no evidence of any of that!”

I was absolutely floored by this. I would understand if she was just generally bitching about me “she was so annoying and impatient over the weekend”! Type thing - but it was the all encompassing, relationship fracturing nature of her complaints, particularly the idea that I am out to maliciously harm her (couldn’t be further from the truth) that has shaken the core of my trust in her/our relationship.

The next day she very slowly warmed up to me and put on a big act of saying goodbye at the airport - I didn’t say I had overheard anything and pretended everything was fine as we were staying with extended family and I didn’t want to cause a scene.

My question is, do I tell her that I heard her? I would really like to address it. How do I go about bringing it up?

I know she will want to come and stay with us over summer and she desperately wants a relationship with her grandchild - but after hearing all that I am concerned about her ability to foster healthy relationships long term, I have heard of “grey rock” and wonder if that’s a better idea here.

I was thinking a short text to say “I just want you to know that I overheard you talking to Shirley that night and I was really confused and hurt by what you said”.

Thoughts/advice?

If it was a healthy relationship, you could take it, discuss it, deal with it…but she won’t. She’ll deny it. She’ll gaslight you. She’ll say you misunderstood.
I’ve divorced a man I believe is a covert narcissist. It runs in the family 😬 and I’m so glad I got myself and away from them. You can’t win, the only way to truly win is to stop playing the game (that you never wanted to play in the first place).

You have my sympathy... and more or less my mother, by the sound of things...! My own breaking point came when my mother accidentally included me on a WhatsApp chat where she was laughing at a very genuine crisis that was happening to me through no fault of my own and that I had confided in her about...
I don't think there's any point trying to confront it or have it out with her or make her see your side. That is making yourself vulnerable, and people like her will just use that vulnerability against you. It doesn't matter whether she knows that you heard her or not. I know it feels as if it does! But that awareness won't change her behaviour. I agree with other posters that your focus should be on protecting yourself, reading up on narcissistic mothers (it really is amazing, or it was for me, suddenly discovering that this sort of thing follows a pattern familiar to many), and deciding how much of a relationship to enable between her and your child. My kids have a nice relationship with their granny, but I keep things very surface level, see her infrequently, and give her no personal information or ammunition. She will never stay under my roof again nor I under hers. I decide when she sees them, and I ignore any commentary whatsoever about me or my life or my choices.

Commiserations and best wishes. It hurts. You are not alone.

I think that what you need to face here is that she is much iller than you realised. Actively thinking you want to harm her is either a sign of psychosis, a severe tendency to manipulate to the degree she's lost touch with reality, or a really scary criminal daughter. I think we can discount the last!

But that leaves you with either 1 or 2, and people who are emotionally very immature can become so lost in their manipulations that the line between reality and their fantasies blurs.

The take away from this is you are not dealing with a rational woman, and you will not get a rational response. The best thing to do for yoruself is to mentally step back and realise that she is much further gone than you realise, that she can never be a 'mothering' mother any more (if she ever was - somehow I suspect you did a fair bit of mothering her) and that emotionally you need to grieve the loss of a mother, but you're on your own now with her. I'm sorry.

Say i heard what you said the other day, and explain what you heard.

@ReleaseTheDucksOfWar yes that’s exactly it. I think in recent years (since I have been an adult on the other side of the world, and more recently since pregnancy and baby) she has been on very good behaviour, particularly when she came to visit me just after baby was born - she was absolutely amazing and I actually cried a lot when she left because I missed her so much (a very novel feeling from our usual interactions!). I had kind of forgotten what she was really like so this discovery that she is actually much worse than I had even imagined she was is a big shock.

It’s not feasible for me to just go no contact or cut her from my life, but I do wonder if I should say something like, “I overheard what you said and I was dismayed and concerned. I think you may have a personality disorder and would like you to seek therapy before we continue to build a relationship with DGC” - kind of extreme but I feel like she needs help.

Not mentioned in the OP, she is not with my father but married to my step father. Their relationship is atrocious. During the trip we stayed with them for a couple of nights (I was extremely nervous about this as it’s very tense there, they were pretty horrible to me when I was a teenager, and he is an alcoholic but mostly polite and helpful ) but I knew she would want to show the baby to her neighbours, show the baby her garden etc and I couldn’t deny her this.

The entire time she essentially wasn’t speaking to him, or lashing out when she did speak, she was so intensely passive aggressive in every interaction even when he was offering assistance, making dinner etc - I can’t begin to imagine how toxic their home is when they don’t have a guest. I actually got a really bad stomach ache from the stress of being there. It’s so depressing knowing that someone can make it into their late 60s and have developed absolutely no further interpersonal skills/wisdom or self reflection.

I feel like she needs help and don’t want to abandon her but also can’t bear the thought of carrying on like nothing has happened and additionally ruining myself and my husband’s summer if she comes to stay and explodes for whatever reason. It’s just too risky.

Plus, more serious than our summer, I want to model healthy relationships for our child and hopefully future children and she is a risk to that (albeit a rather contained risk, being very far away as she is).

But I can’t just walk away, and she will ask me about holiday dates soon so I need a response.

Nope. Leave it. You now know who she is and you need to protect yourself. She is not capable of understanding as you can tell from how seriously she has misjudged you, someone she should know really well. She has a personality disorder so she isn't capable of relating with you and she isn't going to change. I suggest therapy and boundaries.

Id have a phone conversation with your aunt about it first. Tell her what you overheard and explain the situation and ask her advice. She's been dealing with it her whole life so is probably best suited to helping you here. Also she knows you aren't out to hurt her.

Why do you think you can’t just walk away? You can.

If you choose not to, you accept her as she is, personality disorder and all. She won’t be able to change it through counselling.

Gently, you have to try not to think in terms of obtaining the reactions you want from her. You will only regain control here if you try to let go of the hope that you can affect her behaviour by showing her how you want her to behave & hoping she'll come up to the mark. It's completely understandable you want to, but ultimatums & challenges just give her ways to let you down! Please hear the poster who says you are not dealing with a rational woman, and you will not get a rational response.
The power of letting go of expectations is tremendous once you manage it. Don't think in terms of therapy for her - think in terms of therapy for you.

Thank you all for listening and for all the thoughtful, intelligent and heartfelt advice - mumsnet is sometimes a wonderful place ♥️

It’s not feasible for me to just go no contact or cut her from my life, but I do wonder if I should say something like, “I overheard what you said and I was dismayed and concerned. I think you may have a personality disorder and would like you to seek therapy before we continue to build a relationship with DGC” - kind of extreme but I feel like she needs help.

Do not do this - do not do this. It will feed her paranoia and make things worse not better. Seriously. Apart from the fact that she is ill, she'll be offended - honestly, never mind her illness, who wouldn't be if they heard that when they think they are fine and it's everyone else is the problem!

You are thinking in terms of trying to communicate rationally with her. It's not going to work.

It's better to think in terms of 'managing' her now, rather than making her well. She's really unwell, she's in an atrocious relationship which will make positive change more difficult not less, she is (from what you've said, if you watch her behaviour) destructive generally.

I think myself the best thing you can do is be careful with her and the baby and keep in mind that you are dealing with an ill woman

Regarding her interactions with the baby when the baby is older, it's a good idea to teach them to recognise difficult behaviour and how to handle it. With two ... difficult .. relatives in my family I've explained that I love them, but that they are not well. There have been times of no contact, when I've said that they are unwell and things are just too difficult to stay in contact at this moment. I've also talked about how we treat people, and tried to model it. When I've failed (and I have; I have my own burdens) I've apologised and explained that this was not ok behaviour.

I'm not in favour of automatically going no contact with difficult people. It's sometimes sadly necessary but you can't escape them in life and I think that within reason it's quite a good idea to protect young people from it, but as they get older and you can talk more to them, it can give them good tools for the future in how to handle difficult behaviour.

Booze talking

@ReleaseTheDucksOfWar okay thank you, you’re quite right so I will not be doing that!

Thank you for the tips on managing - I think this will work well as they get older. I don’t think every family relationship in their lives has to be perfect, as long as me and their dad model a great relationship and give them secure attachment.

I would be a lot more worried about her impact on them if we lived nearby and be wondering how to limit things - but as it’s a max once a year holiday contact and face time etc then I think I can manage this like you say.

You just say it to her.

I’m not sure there’s much merit in having it out with her. Even if she remembers what she said she’ll deny it and make you the villain

she sounds very much like my mother (who I went nc with decades ago)

You’ve had some good advice here so far but I just want to say that this is very similar to a situation with me. I also overheard my Mum talk about me and can never forget it.
I am in therapy for the relationship with my mum but I wanted to recommend an audiobook that is free on Spotify. It’s called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. I think you will find it really helpful as I know I have and out situations seem similar.
How I’m navigating my relationship now is hoping that other people can see through her as opposed to worrying that they believe what she says about me, maybe they will or won’t but I can’t control it. And the main one is being the adult as opposed to the child, so when she does something that would previously rile me up I am trying to stay calm, breathe and let it slide.
Also my Mum does not have the relationship I would have hoped with my children and I don’t think she is capable of it (she wasn’t with me and the expectation that she would with her grandchildren was too high) so don’t worry too much about that as you may be disappointed with what you get.
x

Given the amount of time together it doesn't sound too bad no. She looms huge in your mind as she's your mum, but with that amount of time she might not have all that much impact at all on your own daughter. As you say modelling a good relationship with your husband is the key and will ~far~ outweigh her impact.

I still think it's a good idea to talk about how people relate though as children get older and give them the tools to follow what's happening.

Thanks so much, I have actually read that book and found it immensely helpful! I think just because of the distance we now have and how good she was the last visit I sort of started to think maybe she had healed herself but definitely got that wrong! Solidarity xx

In my opinion there is no point in saying anything. She's not going to change anyway so whats the point. She's been like this since you were a child.

She sounds narcissistic.

Best to keep her at distance and go very low contact because often people like this 'project'. i.e the very thing she is accusing you of doing is probably what she wants to do herself.

She is projecting her unconscious self on to you. My guess is there is jealousy that you have escaped and have a life and freedom and happiness she never will. It’s really hard to manage these fractured family personalities and dynamics when you have a little baby who is rightly your priority. I’d suggest much shorter visits, 10 days at most. Also strong boundaries and plenty of resources so that you can protect yourself (money, hire car when visiting, even staying in your own place etc). I doubt there is anything to be gained from confrontation. The best you can do is work on your own self worth and esteem so that when you do experience their toxicity it doesn’t get under your skin. It’s a her problem, not a you problem. Pity her.