A lack of self improvement among many men

[Ladyinrouge]

Firstly I realise this doesn't apply to all straight men, but I think Ive seen it enough to wonder if its a thing.
Im mid 40s & happily single. An amateur anthropologist, I like observing people from those I know well to those I don't know at all.

Most of the women and gay men I know are pretty big on self improvement. From say career, finances, travel,learning, dress sense, grooming, personal fitness. Obviously nobody is perfect and nobody should judge others. Im trying not to but would like to understand this.

I can think of very few straight men I know who are imo maximising their potential as people. Many of them seem to be doing the absolute minimum. This seems to apply across age groups (with the exception of very young men some of whom seem massively,perhaps too into the whole bodybuilding thing) and to single and attached men.
Im talking a lack of interests. A generally dour "things were better in the past" mentality. They probably could look after themselves, but dont. No great recipe repertoire (with 2 exceptions), not massively into hobbies outside watching sport and drinking. Poor posture, teeth, skin, hair, bad or unflatteringly dressed. Bad self centred conversation. A kind of heaviness about the way they move. A good few actually smell bad. I mean BO. Stained teeth and T shirts.

Look, maybe Im wrong, why the hell.should they not just look or act how they want.
But if so many are desperate to be in a relationship or just have casual sex, why wouldn't they make more of an effort. It could partly be the rural ish location Ive lived in for the last few years. I domt know. Would bw interested in your thoughts.

Your post reminds me of a young American guy, he'd been overweight and scruffy and had no luck with women so he went into bodybuilding, became fit and muscular and gained lots of female attention - was he happy? no, he wasn't- he hated them and just used them for sex because he was bitter that they hadn't liked him before. Basically, he thought women should love him as he was, he didn't want to have sex with anyone unattractive but thought women should. Most men are not this extreme I'm sure but there is a little nugget of truth here, some men do think they don't have to make an effort and resent being told they do

I'm not sure about all of the stuff you said

But I've noticed whenever I've done evening classes, it's been predominantly women - that's going back 20 years

I now belong to a local social thing, we mostly just go to the pub but we have also been to a couple of local plays and classical concerts.

That's also predominantly women, but one chap tried to encourage men from his physical training group to go along. They weren't interested. Obviously, they are going to physical training sessions, but they don't want to socialise. I think he feels a bit outnumbered because there's been a couple of Friday nights where he was the only bloke there.

The other thing I found interesting,

having only moved to this area two years ago, most of the women in the group are married. Obviously, I understand that people want an independent social life. But a few have actually said that they would like their husbands to come with them, but their husbands don't go out.

I don't have a judgement either way but I do feel uncomfortable around anyone who is lacking in basic hygiene, etc. I used to be concerned that that type of person must be very depressed. But I think there is an increasing level of "can't be bothered" going on and I'm not sure it is linked to any kind of depression

I posted it on here when I was dating a much younger guy, I was expecting a lot of judgement, but a couple of other single women were asking me "how did you find him, I can't date men my own age because they're awful". Honestly, I don't have a lot of experience of blokes so I don't really know, but the stories I hear are quite alarming. I was friends with the young guy first so it's not like I went out looking. I wouldn't even know how to do that! 😂

Final point, the young guy said he has never really known many blokes who want to go out. They go to football matches and occasionally, if it's someone's birthday, they'll go for a drink down the pub. Apart from that, it's all watching sports and gaming. He didn't have anyone to go for a meal or a movie etc unless he was dating.

I think that's fine if people are happy with it but of the things you've said, personal hygiene really bugs me. No one wants to sit next to that person on the bus!

Many of the men I know are obsessed with improving their running or cycling times or distances. Or rock climbing. So I very much think it depends what circles you move in.

Really illuminating responses here, thanks.
I certainly have seen the phenomenon of tbe man who doesn't go out. In some cases ever. In others only when they are looking for another half, or their existing partner kind of drags them along. There seemed to be a big socialising (well drinking) phase for men and I guess women from say 17 to 23. Most women kind of kept developing their social lives through their 20s, just with less drinking and more meals out, learning new skills etc.
The men I knew back in my early 20s seemed to kind of become quite pipe and slippers after about 24 or when they got a long term partner.

That American bodybuilder sounds quite extreme and certainly a problematic mentality. What I wonder about is (where I live at least) how few single (or indeed partnered) men do very much ither than work and watch sports. Look, I suppose if they were unhappy with this they'd live differently.

What strange circles you move in OP

Sounds like a chatGPT circle

the men I know are the opposite of what you describe. Social, groomed, fit, millions of hobbies, holidays and enjoy showing off!

Are these men you have met on OLD or your friends?

@Ladyinrouge Most of the women and gay men I know are pretty big on self improvement. From say career, finances, travel,learning, dress sense, grooming, personal fitness.

First of all, giving this a title like "self-improvement" is peurile and has "tech bro" vibes.

There's a number of reasons why people may not be progressing in these areas.

(1) Career progress is dependent on higher-level jobs being available, and being successful in interviews. Success in interviews, for most people, is extremely low. If you look at jobs on linkedin, they generally have over 100 applicants each. It's also dependent on medical issues not impeding your progress (far too many people, like you, take good health for granted).

(2) Improving finances is solely dependent on having extra money available for saving and investing.

(3) Travelling is expensive, and conflicts with the aforementioned goal of improving finances.

(4) Learning requires time and money, and is difficult when you have a full time job that consumes most of your waking hours.

(5) Dress sense and grooming require a certain appearance to begin with. If you're ugly, you're still going to be ugly regardless of how you dress and how you groom yourself.

(6) Fitness requires time.

They probably could look after themselves, but dont. No great recipe repertoire (with 2 exceptions), not massively into hobbies outside watching sport and drinking. Poor posture, teeth, skin, hair, bad or unflatteringly dressed. Bad self centred conversation. A kind of heaviness about the way they move. A good few actually smell bad. I mean BO. Stained teeth and T shirts.

What hobbies should they have? Many hobbies require friends and most men do not have friends. So what should they be doing?

Having bad teeth is often caused by various addictions, and fixing teeth is prohibitively expensive.

Skin and hair are genetic. You have the skin and hair you are born with.

But if so many are desperate to be in a relationship or just have casual sex, why wouldn't they make more of an effort. It could partly be the rural ish location Ive lived in for the last few years. I domt know. Would bw interested in your thoughts.

This should be obvious. Either, they don't want a relationship or casual sex, or they've worked out that even if they were attractive, they would still not have a relationship or casual sex.

By the way, casual sex, for the most part, does not exist outside of TV. If you've ever browsed a dating app, almost all of women's profiles explicitly state that they do not want casual sex.

@Ladyinrouge I certainly have seen the phenomenon of tbe man who doesn't go out. In some cases ever.

Where do you want me to go?

There's an awful lot of women out there who have no interest in self-improvement or maximising their potential.

There was a trend a few years ago of women posting on social media the (usually misattributed) trope of "I’m selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can’t handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don’t deserve me at my best." Or, in other words, "I'm a dis-regulated nightmare who will point to the occasional moments where I treat you well to excuse all the times when I'm a petulant child who treats you like absolute shit."

While I have no doubt there are lots of men behave the same way, I don't recall them being quite so open and proud about it.

I don't think all the things that might improve someone's general happiness and engagement in life are out of reach for most people. This thing for example about fitness requiring time. I am not talking about ultramarathon running. I am talking about, for example, trying to move a bit, get some steps in, go for a walk. If it were impossible for most people how come many people join a gynm or just walk or run outside?
Yes there are people who cannot afford the dental care they might need, but I have met many that can, but choose not to.

I have already said several times it is up to these people how they live, And as for all this "the men/people I know are the opposite of this" there really seems to be this oppositional posturing thing whenever anyone expresses an opinion on anything. Clealry the fact that all people are not like this allows for the fact for the opposite phenomenon to be the case. Is it that people who do not like or do not share an opinion on something feel that stating its absolute opposite is the quickest way to undermine it? I have seen this so many times, everything from politics ("Keir Starmer is the most unpopular PM in living memory" RESPONSE "actually out on the doorsteps many voters have said how much they value and respect KS" instead of "That may be the case, however in reality most people are neutral about politicians. We live in a low trust culture where people associate respecting authority with naivete, so that plus social media creates a situation where were Attlee or Churchill in power today people would be saying they were useless too")

@Ladyinrouge blimey, that was long winded

Well, it is if you're trying to say "are posters contradicting me for the sake of it?" Yes absolutely that happens on here, but I'm not sure it's happened in this case.

If most of the men I knew were as you describe, that would be really alarming!

What you have said is quite controversial though and it does seem like it's obviously going to get people's backs up.

It's a total stereotype and your most recent reply sounds like you used AI....

Hopefully you can see that my answer was honest because I did recognise some echoes of what you say.

But we clearly have very different life experience, because you mention people getting married at 24. That sounds extremely early to me. I'm curious to know what area you're living in.

Again these excuses not what I would recognise in any of the men I know!!

It’s mumsnet. That would be the wrong kind of self improvement…

@Gymbunny2025 Again these excuses not what I would recognise in any of the men I know!!

Health issues are an excuse?

Some day, you or someone you know will have a chronic medical condition. And then you will see how it makes things so much more difficult to progress in a career and to manage other aspects of your life.

And no, it is not true that chronic medical conditions are self-inflicted.

I dunno, maybe these men have the right idea; I get exhausted hearing about all this self improvement and 'optimising' we're supposedly all meant to be doing. I see lots of women posting this type of stuff on SM. Having a lie in or going for a pint sounds great after a week working. They should wash if they're gonna be around other people though😁

No ability to thrive in your career? No time for hobbies? No friends? No point in grooming or dressing well unless you are attractive? All excuses.

even if we have a health condition we can still do a lot of the above!

@Gymbunny2025 No ability to thrive in your career? No time for hobbies? No friends? No point in grooming or dressing well unless you are attractive? All excuses.

As I said, progressing in a career is solely dependent on opportunities being available, and being successful in the interview.

I take it you haven't been on linkedin in a while. Each job has over 100 applicants, no matter what it is.

As for grooming and dressing well... so suppose I improved my appearance and changed how I dressed. What would that bring me?

even if we have a health condition we can still do a lot of the above!

That depends on the medical condition... ...

You know some odd men OP, and all the straight men you know are like this?

Your issue is your social circle not men in general.

Because I don’t know any men like that.

All the straight men I know do a variety of things to improve themselves, either in terms of career development ( studying, training, networking), in terms of health (cycling, running, gym, climbing, triathlons etc) and personal development (community work, volunteering, non-sports hobbies like chess or photography etc).

I don’t know any stay at home smelly men. And that’s inter generational neither my father’s, husband’s or son’s cohorts behave the way you are describing.

As I said just not reflective of the men (or women) I know. Nor would want to get to know. Just not my kind of people! I’m surprised OP knows so many men like it!

I'm in my early 60s and look after myself, parkrun, cycling, good diet, reading, travelling new experiences, social life etc. All my female friends are the same, smart, cheerful, proactive. They make an effort.
A lot of men our age are not. Can't be bothered to maintain basic hygiene, dentistry, exercise, wear clothes with holes in etc. Eat junk.

It seems more noticeable with age.

I think this may be more true of men than women but I definitely know exceptions. Men in their 40s come to my yoga class. My partner in his 40s will go out for a drink or meal with his friends. There is an element of judgement in your comment about watching sports I think. What is wrong with that if they enjoy it?

DH is 50, works long hours (as in often has to open up his laptop after DC are in bed) and we have small DC (extremely hands on dad, if he’s not working he prioritises spending time with DC) so no he doesn’t really get time for exercise. We struggle to get time in for sex, we are now scheduling (for me more than him if I’m being honest).

He keeps a healthy weight though mainly by jogging up and down stairs (he doesn’t have the patience for elevators). People are often surprised by his age because he moves like a much younger rman I think. He’s generally active. It’s not always possible to have the time for exercise and grooming, self improvement (I guess his career may count there). I literally don’t think he has the hours in the day to be doing anything additional.

I do think though if you are a single person looking for love or something more casual you probably should tidy yourself up a bit. I do think on the whole when women have more time they do something with it.

I was reading a book on evolutionary psychology, a really interesting bit was how much men overestimate womens sexual interest in them. The theory was it’s an evolutionary adaptation, men compete, women select so for men thinking you are hot motivates you to try your luck more, especially if you consistently misread friendliness for interest. So that’s probably why many men don’t make as much effort as women, they walk around thinking they are hot shit as a state of being.

I think it's lack of money and/or addictions and poor mental health.

I must say, in wealthier areas men over 45 seem to be keeping well as even with addictions, they can mitigate a lot of damage and consequences thanks to money.

This must be made up