therapy ultimatum

[Platinumsilvergold]

Am at the end of my rope with my husband and his horrible temper. He's not violent but shouty, grumpy, crabby, irritable.

I have had therapy myself. I know I am not perfect - who is? - but I do know how to communicate like a calm and respectful adult human being.

I know this is a problem with HIM, not 'us' and our relationship dynamic. He needs to get help to manage his temper if he's not going to drive me away entirely.

Has anyone ever said 'go get help, or we are done?' What happened? Did it work?

I'm sure lots of people have said this. But how do you think he is going to get help? I'm on an NHS waiting list of over a year. Private is a possibility if you know what therapy you are looking for and know how to sort a good therapist from a charlatan but not cheap. Do you think he wants to change?

Therapy doesn't cure all evils. It isn't a magic pill. Some people are just born a bit cuntish I'm afraid. Sounds like your DH might be one of them. How is he with family, friends, colleagues, kids (if you have any)?

Yeah, he might have the inherited condition, cuntishitis.
What are his parents like, how do they relate to each other and to him?
And how does he relate to other people? Are you his emotional punch bag?

@Notmymarmosets - thanks. He gets private healthcare through work and I know a certain number of therapy sessions come as part of the package. Aware they could be a bit 'basic' though.

@ginasevern - in his more rational moments he does acknowledge his cuntish behaviour and apologises to me. He knows it's not acceptable. His colleagues and wider circle of friends think he's a great, kind, fun guy. Closer friends think he can be a bit moody. Kids think he is grumpy and snappy. But the really nasty shouting is saved for me 😞

@ArtyShmarty - yes I am his emotional punchbag, which feels laughable given I gather less and less emotional support from him myself. When we were younger/early on in our marriage he often seemed kind and supportive towards me, and that's all gone now.

His parents aren't great at all. He's not close to them.

"But the really nasty shouting is saved for me"

Yep, as I suspected. Are you in a position to leave him OP?

@ginasevern - not really imminently. Teenage kids doing big exams. My financial position isn’t great but I am working to strengthen it. I have some great friends but little to no family support of my own sadly (not that this will change).

I want to give us a chance in terms of if he is willing to take steps to work on himself and change, then perhaps our marriage can survive. He is getting worse as he gets older though, and it scares me.

The thing is....you shouldn't need to ask a grown man who is ruining his family to get help. It's not like he doesn't know he's being an asshole. He just cares so little about you that he doesn't really care. He thinks you're just going to keep tolerating it. And, therapy can't make an abusive person not abusive. If it was anger issues then surely it would be on full display outwith the home too. He wouldn't be able to hold down a job or function. So if it's only on display at home, then it's probably abuse to maintain control, not anger because he's lost control. There's no fixing that.

Yes, as suspected, he can control it.

Textbook abuser.

Life is short op. Don't spend it trying to fix someone else's bullshit. He doesn't want to be fixed, he just wants to take take take until you've nothing left.

Do your kids a favour and show them we don't stay in angry, shouty, nasty marriages.

Even if he does go to counselling you have no control over what he tells the counsellor and what he tells you.

Perhaps you should get some help to decide whether to quit now or how to act where he gets no feedback from his bad behaviour, ie, ignore. Leave the room. Leave the house!

I was in this position a few years ago. I put up with no end of shit for 3 years and couldn't tolerate it any longer as it was blatantly obvious something wasn't right and he wasnt going to get better on his own.
He did anger management first which helped to some extent with his verbal out bursts.

I reached the point of get more help or leave. He got help but still continued to be a twat at times so I told him to leave. Tbh it became apparent that I was, to some extent, enabling him. And I do believe most people in our position enable it without fully realising. He was gone for 3 months and in that time accessed everything he possibly could. He came back with a diagnosis of BPD, a better understanding of his own mental health and no issues since thankfully. I honestly dont think it would have happened though if I didnt tell him to leave.

Put yourself first and in the nicest way possible, take a look at yourself, how you behave and react in response to him, how much you tolerate, what crappy excuses you make for him, the things you let slide because 'its probably mental health he cant help it'. If you are doing these things, you're enabling him and he will keep at it if he continues to think you will always be there ready to forgive and let things slide.

Totally counterproductive. Coercing someone into counselling never works - they don’t want to be there - it will backfire.

He is making active choices who to target to discharge his anger and who to show the ‘nice’ mask to.

Actions are required here. Take your DC out of this abusive family environment.

My DH behaved in a similar way, took his anger out on me for many years. I tried to support to help make his life easier, reduce his stress, but having done so, he did not change. I did advise him to go to GP for support or marriage counselling but he refused, saying it was just the way he was. It created resentment from me. Eventually he did go to the GL and was put on an antidepressant which was a magic cure for his anger. Maybe your DH would be open to consider seeking GP advice?
Now the anger has stopped but the issues in our marriage remain, as I can see he is a difficult person, it was not just the anger.
Would your DH consider marriage counselling and seeing GP? If so at least it would indicate he is willing to address the situation and could help him hear your voice. He says he realises he behaves badly but he has to want to change for the sake of your marriage. It's not good enough to say he is sorry but repat the same behaviours
My DH has assumed I am able to take anything he throws at me, because he struggles to manage his emotions but does not seem to realise I have difficult emotions too. Don't let your DH assume you are his outlet for his emotions. He needs to treat you better. Don't put yourself at the bottom of the heap for the sake of others. He has to understand he is risking your happiness, your family unit and your marriage, without him wanting to change nothing will improve

OP

How can you be helped into leaving your abuser?. He does not deserve any more chances from you. This is who he really is and he is not going to change.

Abuse is indeed not a relationship issue nor is it about communication or a perceived lack of. It's about power and control.

He can and does control himself around other people in the outside world.
He has a problem with anger, YOUR anger, when you call him out on his behaviour. And AM classes are NO answer to domestic violence which is what is being described here.

He is indeed a textbook abuser right down to even how others think of him. To those in the outside world he is Mr Nice Guy but your kids see him as grumpy and snappy. Closer friends see him as being sometimes moody. You do know that moodiness is an example of emotional abuse. You are his emotional punch bag. He does not have to be violent physically to hurt you; words are doing that and he has you cowed. Am certain too your kids hear all that from him towards you in the home so they are being subjected to this as well. They are indeed telling you that their dad is grumpy and moody. His apologies are meaningless and he is really showing you the nice/nasty cycle of abuse which is a continuous one.

And of course his parents are not great either; no surprise there because the rotten apple did not fall far from the rotten tree.

Do you really think that such a man would be open to be counselled?. No not a bit of it. He likely thinks there is nothing wrong in how he treats you and in turn his children. This is also deeply ingrained within his psyche and he would need years of therapy, not mere months. And he is most unlikely to stick at it again because he thinks there is nothing wrong with him. Its everyone else's fault expect his own.

Such men hate women too. All of them.

There is never any one good time to leave but I would be very brave here and start seeking legal advice on the quiet. You are married to this man and thus have rights in law. Do this before January if at all possible as that is the Solicitors busiest month. Also knowledge here is power for you.

I doubt very much the atmosphere at home is at all condusive to studying for exams and besides which these can be retaken if needed. They are absolutely not the be all and end all. Saving money also takes time and the longer you remain with him the worst potentially it will become for you and your kids. This is NOT the relationship model to leave them because they could well copy this same model as adults. Teach them properly that the only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is none.

I would also suggest you reach out to Womens Aid, they have an online chat facility too. At the very least I would urge you to visit Boots and ask for ANI, the staff will direct you to domestic violence support services that they have in their branches.

Thank you so much for all your thoughtful responses, and solidarity to those who've experienced similar. We've been together a very long time, and there have been good times - and for many years, if he lost his temper or behaved badly, he would immediately apologise, say that he will change and would 'try'.

But this is it - you shouldn't have to 'try' to be respectful and kind to your wife and the mother of your children, should you? And in recent years, his temper has escalated, we are late 40s/early 50s...and I feel scared about the kids leaving, and ending up being an elderly woman being shouted at.

I'm also pretty scared about being alone in later life though, in all honesty. 😓

And a hard NO to joint marriage counselling. You are not emotionally safe enough to be in such sessions with him and besides which such is not recommended where there is abuse of any type within the relationship.

Misstiefied - I hope you ultimately manage to get away from your abuser too. Make no mistake here, you are also in an abusive marriage.

You can’t threaten someone into therapy OP, it doesn’t work. They have to see the issues themselves, agreed & acknowledge them themselves, and be prepared to stare those ugly parts of themselves right in the eye for weeks & weeks of therapy. That takes a huge amount of personal work, development, and you have to really want to do that for yourself & only yourself. You can’t force him.

What is so terrible or scary about being alone in later life?. You are in your 40s and still in your prime, not in your 90s. I realise that society is far more geared up towards couples but what is worse here really?. Being on your own within a year with your kids in a calm home or being with him after the kids have left home (and far sooner rather than later) and not wanting to return very often if at all. Do not also stay for the sake of the children. They could well call you daft for staying and accuse you also of putting him before them.

Being alone within your marriage as you are now is a dark place to be in. You are describing a slow death by 1000 cuts. Your own recovery from his abuse of you will only properly start when you and he are apart.

And do not get bogged down in your sunk costs like so many people do.

Therapy doesn't really work if you're not in the right mindset though, so coercing him into doing it against his will probably won't be much use for him. It's not a magic cure all and as a wise man once said, there's no cure for being a cunt.

You also just said you're not in a position to leave him currently, so you'd be making an empty threat anyway! If you're going to lay down ultimatums you have to be in a position to follow through with the consequence - because I'm sorry to say this but chances are he won't change. So if you make the threat you have to be prepared to actually leave when you do it.

Thanks again all. I am sitting here just feeling so confused as to how we got here - as I said, we have had many good years in our marriage when I felt like we were strong. He has always had a tendency to get into a bit of a bad mood or a little snappy or whatever on the odd occasion. But these episodes were rare, and he would always apologise and give a 'reason' for it.

Now though, he kicks off so frequently - and rarely apologises. In all honesty it feels like he doesn't like (or love) me anymore. He doesn't seem to want to be a team. Every little thing I do irritates him, even when I'm being nice. An example from recently - he was due to attend an event that would be tricky to get to on public transport. I offered to give him a lift. Quite nice of me, right?! But no - I was met with him barking at me that I was 'treating him like a child' and 'controlling'.

He also denies things that he's said and can react really differently within conversations, depending on his mood.

Whatever you do do not use Relate. They were appalling. We thankfully found an excellent therapist but it wasn’t cheap and real work would need to take place, so to make a difference debit was a proper investment in every sense. Could be worth making the ultimatum and seeing how willing he is to start the process as a way forward? If he is against or just disengaged then it doesn’t bode well. But you could try with a view to leaving if he doesn’t commit to the self-work.

It definitely sounds like something’s triggering him here. Doesn’t make his response acceptable by the way. But if you want to try it’s worth digging into this behaviour and your psychologies to understand both of you and your triggers and your relational dynamics fully. (Not if he doesn’t want to of course).

@mumofonetwo - yes definitely. You are right there are triggers and I know what some of those are tbh - there have been a few stressful life events for both of us in recent years, but it all feels quite one-sided in lots of ways. For example, he was made redundant from work a few years ago. He found another job, but money was tight for a while - that was stressful for our family as a whole. But if I dare now to mention any financial concern at all, I get shouted at.

It also seems that he is permitted to be a grumpy sod around the house at any time for whatever reason, but if I express the even slightest minor irritation over anything at all, I am berated by him for being 'moany' or 'negative'. It's got to the point where if anything upsets me, or I am feeling worried or down about anything, he's the last person I go to for help.