Really confused in my marriage

[TheLoyalMintGuide]

I was wondering if I can have some advice. I’ve been married to dh for over ten years. We have two lovely children. I have a job I enjoy at the same company as dh - not ideal but it was the only job in my field that came up when we moved for dh’s job.

I am really confused about my relationship with dh. I really care about him, I think he can be so kind and patient, and funny. He’s intelligent and perceptive, and genuine. He does, i think, suffer from depression. He gets so down - normally about work- and talks to me about it a lot. I feel he is destroying my chance of enjoying my job because of his sadness and how much he moans about work. I am generally quite a positive person though quite sensitive probably. I want to enjoy my life. He can be really grumpy and snappy. In fact i think he probably gets annoyed with me over something trivial at least once a day. I find I am often nervous around him. At work I see his best side, but sometimes at home he can be really hard work.

other times he can be lovely and good fun and I feel maybe I am overreacting. He has on occasion really shouted at me which I hate - the loud noise sort of hurts my ears, and I kind of back off. If he’s in a bad mood even the smallest minor bicker can suddenly escalate, like this morning when he got a bit grumpy about something, I got a bit grumpy back and he basically stormed out of the house to go to work. I asked him if he was ok but he just walked off. I tried to ring him and said that I was upset but he said ‘well I’m upset too and I don’t have time for this right now’ and was really angry. I listened the other day to a podcast about the ‘let them’ theory so for once I didn’t argue back. I just said ‘ok then, see you later’. He hung up. I’m
now sick wirh nerves about what he’s going to be like when he comes back from work. I’m working from home today and I don’t know how I can concentrate.

I know this makes him sound awful but he’s not, he can be so lovely and kind. I can’t work out how to deal with him. I worry about his mental well-being all the time. I also worry about our children hearing us argue and I often try to keep the peace.

I feel so lonely. None of my friends know and I think they would be shocked if they heard how he speaks sometimes. I’ve hinted at it a few times to my mum but she’s unwell at the moment and don’t want to burden her. Sometimes if I am really honest I fantasise about being seperate and living on my own, though I know the fantasy could never live up to reality. I look at houses on Rightmove and daydream sometimes. I have the odd crush on other people which I never act on but again fantasise about being wirh them - one of them is married which is awful and I’d never act on it.

I realise I sound totally deluded. What can I do to make him realise he’s damaging our relationship with this? I’m not perfect I know. I don’t want to get divorced but I want to be happier. It’s so difficult because when he’s nice I find it hard to remember what he’s like when he’s not. Today I did the school drop off after our argument and I felt like I didn’t exist. I sometimes feel that way, I can’t explain it. Any help please.

Thank you so much for all your help everyone.
He’s being nice now. We had a rare evening out this week and actually had a nice time.
This is going to sound strange and I know that I will sound weak and a bit of a doormat but he is in many ways my best friend. I could write of so many times when he has been kind/generous/supportive.
but then there are these awful explosions of anger and sometimes I doubt myself and think ‘I’m imagining it/remembering it wrong’. He’ll tell me i’m overreacting and that everyone argues in marriages. Which I know is true but I just have this sense that what I’m experiencing isn’t right.

I feel this huge relief that his mum and brother were not surprised when I finally spoke to them.

I’m kind of waiting now for a final anger explosion but I worry I’ll say to myself that it wasn’t enough to justify leaving.

also I took a vow ‘in sickness and in health’ and I do believe he is depressed. So I can’t leave him
if he’s unwell though goodness knows how many times I’ve told him to go to the GP.

But I do feel something shifting in me slightly. I developed a bit of a crush on a work colleague this year (he also married - I wouldn’t do anything about this of course I just admire him from afar!) and I had an epiphany the other day. Sometimes I daydream about another life when I’m with this guy and I read somewhere that with crushes like this I should think ‘what is it that I like about myself in these fantasies?’ The answer suddenly came to me yesterday: in my daydreams I’m relaxed.

but then I go back and think I’m about to blow up my marriage because of a silly crush and I’m a terrible person etc.:. Sorry for the essay.

@TheLoyalMintGuide Do you think perhaps that wedding vows may be outdated, and written for a time when women (and men) were expected to stay in abusive marriages, and when we didn't live as long? Personally, whilst I agree married people should support each other through difficult times, there are limits. If someone suffers from depression, it has an impact on those around them, and it's their responsibility to seek help.

OP

Now you are in the nice part of the nice/nasty cycle of abuse which is a continuous one. He will revert to type soon enough.

Do not allow your marriage vows or your thoughts of he having depression keep you tied to this man because you may be wrong re him being depressed. And has he been to the GP re this - no. So of course you can leave him. Never allow yourself to think you cannot.

Think long and hard too about what both his mother and brother have said; they've been around him a lot longer than you have after all.

I think you are finally realising that there are emotionally healthy and kind men out there who do not hate all women and actually treat them with respect - unlike your man. You recognise such qualities in your crush that you are rightly not going to act on.

@TheLoyalMintGuide ↑↑↑This!

This is all very familiar - or you trying to interrupt with a perfectly calm viewpoint if they are spouting off on one with the ‘don’t interrupt me ’ ! Gradually you just learn to sadly feel a little less -

OP, at the top of the thread you said that you believed his parents would be devastated if the marriage ended (or words to that effect). Now you know that his own mother wouldn't blame you for leaving him. His brother has said the same. The people who've known him all his life.

What does that say to you? To me it says that you are making yourself utterly miserable because of your completely incorrect assumptions about how other people view your marriage.

I promise you, from what you've said here, everyone who truly loves you and wants the best for you (and your kids) would throw a fucking party for you if you left this man.

Thanks so much everyone again.
the last few days have been much better. He’s been really helpful - my ds had a bday party a few days ago and dh pretty much did all the /shopping/cooking for it. We had loads of parent friends over and dh was on great form. It made me think - how can I say goodbye to all this?

Perhaps if I just concentrated on all his good bits, showed him how much I love him, he would be happier? I’m not perfect. Sometimes I think he senses I’m not happy. He says things like ‘you have this false version of me in your head who is horrible to you’ and maybe he’s right.

How do I know I’d be happier without him? One poster mentioned there being better men out there - well having read some threads on here about dating in your 40s I think I’d have to accept the likelihood that I would be single for the rest of my life. Which is scary, and also a bit sad. The two men I’ve got crushes-from-a-distance on are both nice, attractive, fun and…married. Like most nice attractive fun men.

I just think maybe I need to make the best of it.

He says things like ‘you have this false version of me in your head who is horrible to you’ and maybe he’s right.

He's right, except that the version isn't false. It's an enduring aspect of his character. An aspect he refuses to acknowledge, as that quote shows.

It must be pretty shit to deny a whole side to your own personality, I'm not surprised he feels an ongoing tension. It's very unhealthy psychologically. The repression goes a long way to explain why it breaks out so explosively, in situations that are objectively trivial.

It would be interesting to explore exactly what it is that he's feeling in those moments, why it breaks out then and not at other, similar moments. But this is not an exploration that can be done with an amateur, definitely not with someone who loves him. It would take psychotherapy, possibly several years of it.

I'm very glad you spoke with his family - their remarks have proved his outbursts are nothing to do with you or anything you've done. It would be a total waste of time to try and control it by not 'annoying' him or, indeed, walking on eggshells. You can't control the stuff going on in somebody's unconscious mind.

You could talk to him. You could insist on going to couples therapy together and talk to him that way. The one thing you shouldn't do, I feel, is decide to simply put up with it or try to ''work around' him. Over time it will undermine your confidence really badly. Even worse, it will teach your children that men have irrational outbursts of anger and women put up with it. He will teach them to never feel safe, to always watch their words, to live in constant background fear. He will teach them they're responsible for other people's moods.

Keep talking. I'm wishing you well.

Emotions and good feelings come and go with ease. You must find the place of strong ideals in the realtionship, by focusing on the good moments but also addressing him in the bad moments in real time. When good times come be good when bad times come encourage learning.

The more you try and placate him the harder it will be on you. You seem willing to walk on egg shells to try and maintain the peace. It puts a great deal of permanent pressure on you and is a trait of someone in an abusive relationship. Two people need to try in a relationship. Please get some individual counselling for yourself as you are buying into his bullshit and you are the reason he acts the way he does. In an abusive relationship the abuser isn’t always 100% abusive, they give you good times too, but when the bad times come you cling to the hope that it can be so good sometimes. Please have a think about this concept.

Would echo @AnonAnonmystery- if you can please do talk to a counsellor. It’s really useful to talk through your experience. I’m afraid your OH is gaslighting you. This whole idea of a ‘false version’ is nonsense. That’s who he was at that moment. It’s as true as the good times. If he was genuinely sorry he would say ‘I know I was an arse, sorry’.

I know how difficult it is to trust your gut in these kinds of situations, but please do.

Thanks so much for all your replies. Well things came to a bit of a head mental health-wise for dh last week. I ended up calling his parents and we managed to change a few things for him. He is much ‘lighter’ this week.
I did try and talk to him a few days ago about going to a GP/counsellor and he got really angry with me. Said I was tense and that made him depressed. Said that I was ‘gaslighting’ him which upset me because I’m not and I feel I do so much to support him. i tried to tell him how hard it’s been for me but he got really upset and said I was ‘making him feel shit about himself’.
the next day I said how much the gaslighting comment hurt and he said he knew it wasn’t that but if I kept telling him he was depressed then obviously he’s going to be depressed.

so I feel a bit frustrated. I really try to help him - and he clearly needs help. But he will only accept so much and won’t do much himself. Still am very confused.

on the plus side, I have started talking. To his parents but also about a week ago I really opened up to two good friends. I feel so guilty about it and like I’m betraying him. I also kind of feel I’m living in a weird made up world because I told them all this stuff and I could tell they were worried for me but then when I got home he’s being nice and doing lots wirh the kids and I think ‘why am I saying all this stuff? I’m making it up’. I can’t really explain it. Part of me thinks I need therapy but I can’t afford it.

You honestly need to read your OP back. He is not nice to you, he calls you a gaslighter and uses silence to control you.
If he won’t get help for his MH you should think about how you living this life will affect you and your children. Till death us do part is a very long time, and you only get one life.

he is still gaslighting you.

You have been advised to seek professional help but yet haven't done so. If he won't do it for himself then you should do it for you..
While talking to family and friends is good they will be influenced by their own feelings and experiences with both of you. Offloading will help in the short term but is not a long term solution.

You need to take control otherwise this will not get any better only worse. Get professional help. It is not healthy for your children to grow up in this environment. While you may think they are not aware, they will be. You read here regularly the long term effects living like this has on many families

OP, I commented on your thread at the beginning but it appears I didn\t see your updates. I'm always a bit hesitant to tell this story becuase I think it can give false hope to women in truly awful, abusive relationships. But I'm going to.

DH had a temper. It came out a few times when we were first together. Not just to me actually - I saw it in other scenarios too and a few friends/family had mentioned it. And quite often these temper tantrums were clearly just him having a meltdown because he didn't get his way or people didn't agree with him. I had even lost MY temper (but not in a DH way) with his mother on one occassion when he was being a complete dick and she told me to let it go because otherwise he'll carry on (spoiler - yes, his upbringing has a lot to do with his temper and inability to control it).

In the months before we got married, there were two big incidents in particular. One didn't involve me. The second did. On that occassion, he was so angry about something SO stupid. Like your DH, he ws driving and he nearly hit a cyclist as he screamed at me and hit the steering wheel. When we got home, I was distraught and left the house. Over text, I told him to go stay at his sister. He was, at first, still angry. Accused me of doing all kinds of things and making a mountain out of a mole hill and also that the original argument was all my fault. I think that's what made me able to be so 100% certain that HE was the problem - the original argument was because I'd asked him to turn off a radio station playing music and talking in a language he grew up with. He took offense and claimed this was me "disrespecting his culture". Obviously, that was total bollocks.

I was just sad because I knew I was going to have to cancel the wedding. When he calmed down, after a day or two, he apologised. Told me that he realised he was wrong etc etc. But threw in the "I just can't help it and I'm sorry" bullshit.

I told him that if he didn't seek help, immediately, I would be cancelling the wedding. That no way was I bringing up children in this sort of environment and I wasn't going to put up with it any more. And I meant it.

And to his credit, he did. He started therapy that week. And he did the work. it wasn't easy and there were ups and downs. And in fact, after about a year, he stopped therapy as we thought things were fine, but a year or two later I started seeing the signs. Again, to his credit, he went back to therapy and actually, i think this time he PROPERLY dealt with the issues. And while he still has a bit of a temper and can be a bit moody, we've never had that fear and trauma again, and we don't walk on eggshells.

So when I see this in your post:

I did try and talk to him a few days ago about going to a GP/counsellor and he got really angry with me. Said I was tense and that made him depressed. Said that I was ‘gaslighting’ him which upset me because I’m not and I feel I do so much to support him. i tried to tell him how hard it’s been for me but he got really upset and said I was ‘making him feel shit about himself’.

All I could think was how differently MY DH behaved in a similar situation...... When calm, my DH didn't try to blame me. He didn't claim it was depression. And HE accepted that HE had to do the work to fix himself.

If your Dh can't do that, then I think you have a bigger problem.

“it just doesn’t make sense to me. How can I leave when the man he can be would be absolutely devastated?”

It is his responsibility to work hard towards being the man he can (and ought) to be, OP.
You can tell him your concerns, tell him you think he would benefit from counselling to help him with whatever internal struggles he has and that you will support him in that, but that it has now come to the point where you cannot continue like this and that it is putting your marriage in jeopardy.
Nothing will change until something changes, OP. As obvious as that sounds, you are in a cycle here and something needs to break into it as a catalyst to change.
I’m so sorry, some men are so resistant to accepting help and accepting that they have a problem, and are so very avoidant, that they never do anything until their life has hit the buffers.
Sometimes it’s too late to repair the damage, but you sound as if you know he can do better, he wants the marriage, you want the marriage, so it’s worth a try.
Don’t keep banging your head against this brick wall though, hoping the brick wall will notice. He either listens and commits to change, or I’m afraid that for your own sanity and happiness, you will have to choose you, not the marriage or him.

He doesn't sound like a nice guy. Yes, its hard when someone is not nice / mixed with sometimes being nice - but it's very possible to be abusive only some of the time.

This man is using his moods to manipulate and control you. You are on eggshells

The only way you will change this is by setting a boundary - you say - this is no longer okay, you need to get help and take responsibility for your own moods and feelings about work or I will leave you.

\If youc an't say that then you are not having a proper boundary.

@JadziaD I've just read your comment carefully and I can hardly believe it: a happy ending! I hope that's actually the case.

Honestly, I think it's because DH genuinely did have an anger problem - that was the core of his issue. He wasn't an abusive man by nature, he genuinely wanted to be a good and loving partner etc. He wasn't (isn't) a bad man.

But his family are all a bit volatile so their standards of "normal" are off anyway, and then in addition, he was not taught how to handle anger and emotions correctly. So, once he accepted that HE was in the wrong, and was willing to do the work (and it was a LOT of work), he could fix it.

The problem is that this acceptance and willingness to do the work is very seldom there and so I sort of tell this story to make the point that without the 100% taking responsibility that DH did, and the efforts to improve after that, nothing will ever change.

As a side note, what's quite interesting is that his siblings also have a lot of self destructive behaviours (I like PIL and they did the best they could in a difficult situation but they, frankly, weren't very successful at raising children...) but because it's less outward focused, it's a bit less obvious. Plus, neither of them have been willing or able to do the hard work to fix things, and their lives are much more complicated and difficult as a result. Dh is also a very creative person so perhaps he has more natural ability to do the self reflection that's necessary.

His family often say how lucky he is to have me - like they chalk up his more stable life to me. But while there's an element of truth there - it was his desire to be with me, and my refusal to accept the shittiness that acted as the catalyst for his own changes - it was really all HIM doing the work, starting with accepting it needed to be done in the first place.

@JadziaD : Wow! Excuse the flattery, but you are clearly highly intelligent, perceptive and determined! You deserve your success.

I second this.

Your life is YOUR LIFE! You were not born to be someone’s support dog. You are entitled to live free of fear.

I see the thread moved on a lot while i was posting. I think OP really needs to check out “why does he do that” by Lundy Bancroft.

In addition I want to comment on the repeated refrain (from OP) that he is somehow “two different people” and that the nice one is the “real” one. He isn’t two different people anymore than a rotten piece of meet is “really good, for the most part.” Its rotten and can’t be part of your healthy diet. You have repeatedly drawn his attention to how his anger/criticism/behavior makes you feel and you have tried to offer help but he has absolutely always DARVO’d you. He Denies, Attacks, and Reverses Victim and Offender. That is straight up abuse and he knows it. Don’t think for one minute that he doesn’t. If you unintentionally step on someone’s foot you apologize and try to do better. Even if you are a very good dancer and are somewhat embarrassed by it. You don’t blame and attack the other person. But he does. He can’t even allow you that much courtesy to recognize your feelings. He instantly goes on the attack. The accusation that you are “gaslighting “ him by offering help and ascribing his awful behavior to depression is a deliberate deflection. Made to avoid responsibility for spologizing and doing better.

The nice story upthread about the man who did better was a one in a million shot. It dies not apply to your dh. Instead your life is going to look more like Jamaisjadore’s five year thread which began with her trying to help her “moody” husband and ended in his hysterical break down, temporary hospitalization, and five years of silent treatment/hostility/crazed overreaction and refusal to compromise.

@JadziaD I truly believe that people can change if they accept their flaws and commit to working hard to do better.
I love stories like yours, people can come back from some pretty dark and difficult places if they find humility and accountability and strive to do better.
It takes strength and resilience to go through what you did, I applaud you and your husband for working so hard for each other.

Second @pikkumyy77 - Lundy Bancroft is an eye opener. Patricia Evans is also really good on this kind of behaviour.

It’s heartening to read your experience @JadziaD. But how did you get to a point where you could trust he’d genuinely changed? I wanted to believe my OH had, but it turned out to just be words.