How to navigate this

[darjeelingdarling]

In the context of disagreement or mild conflict where someone is bringing a grievance to the table.

and the listener needs to supply some context for whatever was said or done or not done that relates to pressures of life/ ill health, the things they’re dealing with, alongside an apology, if appropriate.

but the grievance bringer states or believes that that is then making it “all about you” rather than contextual reasoning.

OR the listener feels the need to express reasoning and contexts / their pov but really doesn’t want to take away the hurt or perceived hurt the other person is expressing or give a list of excuses. So sits on it - but this can then lead to resentment or feeling silenced as their pov hasn’t been worked through or expressed?

context: I’m personally dealing with a lot of health stuff that is chronic and exacerbated by the fact that I had cancer, successfully treated (fantastic!) but am on meds that induce menopausal symptoms. Attempting so hard not to go on anti depressants. Symptoms and side effects have been affecting cognition at times but I’ve been working hard to get that better through diet and lifestyle. However I clearly am upsetting people closest to me, or can’t communicate effectively.

I’m not sure op is it like DARVO where they turn any upset they cause round on the victim?

So youve had a grievance brought against you because you upset someone with how you spoke to them. And your response was to talk about yourself. So there response to that was to complain you were making it about yourself and not how you acted?

Not really. Time pressures, rushed conversations about very challenging aspects of our lives when we don’t have the time to fully discuss things, my brain fog and confusion meaning my words are muddled, their perception of what I’ve tried to say (which was genuinely from a place of concern) has touched a nerve in them and they needed to bring it up. I’m absolutely devastated but also close to collapse before this due to everything that’s going on.

mis communication that’s exacerbated by us both being spread so very thinly . we’ve both got so much on our plates.

I hate DARVO. I hate defensiveness. I’ve had it done to me so much when I’ve tried to bring things up that I need to talk about. It’s trying to find the right language to acknowledge the issue, the hurt, whilst also either giving more context that might help the other persons perception that it truly wasn’t / isn’t intentional. One person has said that they’ve been told by relatives they think in very black and white ways. The other person I know does (I’m married to him!)

I personally find it very hard to tell others that they’ve upset me. I tend to just rationalise and tell myself they didn’t mean it and look at the bigger picture. Over time though that can become unhealthy. So I know drawing boundaries is helpful.

I’m trying to search for the positives in this as it’s perhaps a sign that I’m over doing things and I perhaps do need to take more time off work so I can keep all the balls going properly and be there for others properly .

I’m at a low low ebb mentally and physically right now and this has devastated me. Brain fog and exhaustion due to chronic health and treatment side effects doesn’t help my ability to express myself. I’m having to over think to understand.

I’ve barely slept. I needed to sleep last night as night sweats etc have been so bad lately. Dh is away. I have the kids and I’ve got some work to do today and tomorrow with deadlines on Monday.

Is the other person someone you’re very close to? Or DH and someone else as well? It all sounds a bit melodramatic to be having all these conversations about grievances, especially if you’re ill and looking after kids solo — can you not just say ‘Let’s talk about this next week, when I’m less busy’?

Yes a best friend. Who’s also been through so much. I’ve been her support network for years through her marriage breakdown. His abuse of her and their youngest. The resulting issues her youngest has had. Then she was again betrayed by who we thought was an amazing partner.

I made some rushed comments months ago that were from a genuine place of concern that have really upset her and clearly she’s dwelled on but added some other things I’ve said to it . Which i can see how they were insensitive. Or didn’t land properly. And she has come to me with a list of things that she feels is me completely changing, she’s worried I’m a different person.

she came to me saying that she is concerned about me. But I’ve hurt her. And she also doesn’t want me walking on eggshells. But now I am. I don’t think I can be there for her at the moment.

I also don’t feel she understands how I meant the rushed comments to be because we never have time to discuss things properly.

I’ve been really struggling for some time with lingering effects of treatment which have slowly exacerbated chronic health stuff I already had. I’ve honestly sometimes barely been able to string two words together. But I have been tackling it with the gp and via lifestyle etc. I’ve slowly begun to improve. Just life is so stretched right now. I haven’t been able to tell her what’s been going on in my life.

I think we are both in that sandwich zone. Elderly parents, struggling teens. Menopause.

Dh is another story that needs a big gin to explain, wrt my OP, but I’ve actually been making headway there.

I need to get off my phone and sort life out.

The dog has had a bad tummy to add to everything!

She would normally someone I’d turn to right now actually.

i haven’t been because I know she’s too much on. And I’ve not had time.

but then she’s not known what’s going on here.

and we’ve no milk. Ffs.

Serena Terry’s latest skit is probably the best way to interpret this bonkers thread tbh.

cheered me right up 😆

INot your point, I realise, but s there a specific reason you are avoiding medical treatment of your symptoms?

To answer your question, I've just been doing a course about conflict management and communication, and the advice in this case would be to show that you are listening to the person, e.g. thus:

A: You never respond to my messages! I can see you've read them but you leave me waiting for days. It's like wanting an audience with a royal.
B: I know, I sometimes take ages to reply. I feel really bad about that. Do you mean that it feels like I think I'm too important to reply?
A: Yes! It's like I have to beg for your time.
B: I can see why you feel that way. I'm really sorry. Sometimes I feel too down to reply straight away, and I don't want to complain all the time. That's why it takes ages. What could I do to make things better?
A: Just answer faster!
B: Would it be enough if I just gave you a quick smiley, if I'm not up to more?

i.e. first you repeat what it is they are saying in your own words, and say how you think they feel. Ask them questions about what exactly they mean. When you explain your perspective, don't start with "But", as that sounds like you are disagreeing or dismissing their point. Ask them what would improve the situation and offer a compromise if you can't give them what they want.

I’m not avoiding medical treatment. I’m working with the gp. But it’s taking a lot of time. And half of it is the slow process of menopause. Both my natural state and/ or possibly the drug. I could come off it but it’s an anti cancer drug. And I feel I need to try my best. I’m not allowed hrt.

Thanks, I’ll read your suggestions carefully.

Tricky. It is hard enough at the best of times to work out what is due to the menopause and what might be other issues. Sounds like you are trying hard to deal with a lot of things at once. I was just wondering if you saw medication as "cheating" or thought it would dull your perceptions, as many people assume.

what my friend discussed with me yesterday happened in the main back in May when I was particularly fatigued and going through a really hard patch.

there’s been a lot of improvements to that in the last two months but also a lot of external life stressors. I’m waiting for a second blood test after addressing one thing was too low. If things don’t improve anti depressants are the next step in my eyes.

I worry that they’ll cause other side effects. Including low libido. I’m also often really happy and content. I’m proud of how I’m coping in the main.I don’t know if they dampen that. Anxiety is an issue at times but I have some beta blockers.

It's a good idea you have there to keep something up your sleeve so you know you have something to fall back on if you need it.
Is your friend also struggling with her own problems, or do you think she's upset by the changes in you?

Both

I don’t think I can be there for her at the moment. I’m not sure how to tell her but I think it’s best.

Do you feel like you're asking just once for people to think about you, and take your needs into account at this difficult time - and now you are being told off for asking for that?

Yes.

but they don’t have the patience. As it’s been two years since diagnosis, but I was struggling on and off for years prior to that due to other physical health stuff and peri menopause.

but I’ll own my insensitivity/ hurried comments when I meant to help. I can see why they weren’t helpful. My friend did query her own black and white thinking style to be fair. And I feel she’s changed too. Understandably, since her last relationship ended. As life got extremely hard for her. Though she’s now doing well.

I have composed something to send to her.

I’ve tried to acknowledge her hurt and feelings as much as possible and perhaps I need to step back till I am more able to be there for her. but I think she’ll be really hurt by that. I really really stepped up for her in the past when she really needed it and I know she values that.

Dh just needs hard stares.

Maybe she, too, needs some thinking time. She might also be feeling bad about the disagreement and wishing it had gone differently. Would you be up for speaking to her in person? That can help avoid misunderstandings. And maybe just express your love for her and your hope that you'll be able to communicate better again when you both have less stress? You don't have to come up with a solution to this disagreement. You could leave her to suggest something, or just let some time pass and see if either of you is feeling more able to cope.

I personally find it very hard to tell others that they’ve upset me. I tend to just rationalise and tell myself they didn’t mean it and look at the bigger picture. Over time though that can become unhealthy. So I know drawing boundaries is helpful.
You don't have to say that they have upset you. You can say how you felt when they said or did whatever it was. If you describe your own feelings, they can't plausibly disagree with what you are saying, and the focus is not on what they did wrong, or whether they meant it.

It's horrible when you need a cuddle and feel like no-one cares. I hope you feel better soon.

Thanks 80s.

kids are drawing (😱) I’m getting work done (not sure how on 4 hrs sleep) and the dog is now constipated so I’m using Serena Terry reels as a distraction.

wrt this. I don’t feel understood. But I don’t think that’s something I can say in this situation?

I also feel blindsided. And exhausted.

i try to see the positives in difficult situations, eg this could be the nudge I need to really get on top of things with the gp, counselling etc

How about if you said you felt vulnerable and wanted reassurance and support?

Yes, I've had the same experience, that a crisis actually led to some useful change.

Yes thank you for the vocabulary. She did tell me how things had felt to her, how it made her feel. I’m obviously devastated and apologised. I just know I’ve not been able to be the friend she needed due to everything going on. The brain fog and mental confusion earlier this year was very challenging. It’s still hard but I feel something has improved. Unfortunately in the last two months, life and work has added extra curve balls.

Cancer treatment is really harsh on the mind and body and devastating emotionally. You aren't the same person after. I don't think she can appreciate the scope of how it affects every system and that you have to focus on yourself. Who else is going to?

At this point in time, you likely just can't be the friend she wants. She resents that.

You were there for her in the past but there's been irrevocable physical and mental and emotional changes in you from the disease process and treatment that make that no longer possible for you.

Things change and it's adapt or else.

Honestly, I think she's extremely reactive, or, she's not happy you can't give the same level of unquestioning support you did previously. I also don't think this is the time for her to be bringing this to the table if you've got so much going on even besides your health issues. Everybody says something that another person can take wrong, and when it's someone with brain fog and the multiple issues arising from your treatment, I'd be letting any of that stuff go. You shouldn't have to be walking on eggshells when your stress is still so high. I think it might be productive for you to be proactive with counseling. You might need to put her on hold of she's bringing even more stress to your life.

It is.

i know I sometimes open my mouth without thinking. Or don’t express myself well (when hurried or brain fogged)

i think she thinks I’m ok now. I seem to have gone through phases and then dips, mostly definitely hormonal. So I’ve probably given mixed messages. We don’t see each other enough. And I tend to put on a brave face or just hide away when I’m very bad. I had some vitamin deficiencies and other things out of wack.

Im wondering if shes expected too much from me. Based on who i was to her in the past. And she knows others who’ve had cancer but im not sure any who’ve had hormonal cancer. Another friend recently was telling me how well her friend was after a double mastectomy and her ovaries out (so you can be too!) but it turned out she’s also now on hrt. (I think she’s had to fight for it and wants quality of life.)