July 2025 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

I have now set up a new thread as the previous one is now full.

This long runnning thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.
Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.
You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
I started with this book and found it really useful.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

This happened to me too. That memories popped up of things I probably never remembered since they happened. Obviously all bad stuff lol. One is particularly nagging because I remember fractions only. I was maybe 5 or 6 and we were on holiday by the sea. And I remember laying in bed absolutely terrified as my parents went nuclear with each other just outside the bedroom.

I remember my father shouting at my mother 'you can't treat her (me) like that'. I wonder if that was the only time he stood up for me. It was definitely the last time. But I don't know what happened that day. I mean I can guess she was probably abusing me but how exactly. It must have been bad for him to call her out. And my whole body was tense and I remember feeling alone and not safe and so on. Not because of the shouting but because of what happened that day. Like my body knew my mother is not good and that I was in danger.

I've just looked into EMDR therapy. Talking therapy no longer works. Minimum cost is about 120 per session and its weekly. So almost 500 a month on therapy! That's absolutely crazy and there's no way I have that disposal income hanging around. Not fair that people need help and it costs that much. I get your paying for expertise but its such alot to afford

@Solace123 the NHS offer it too, but not sure they know anything about cptsd (I think it's offered for PTSD). Would probably have to wait forever to be seen.

Have you discussed with your therapist why talking therapy may no longer work? Haven't been there myself but wondered if therapists share their thoughts on this.

I don’t think talking goes deep enough to get to the subconscious level which I think EMDR does. There is only so much talking you can do I think before you go round in circles.

Yea exactly this @twatalert I ended up going in circles as they had nothing new to add. I also became so self aware of my own issues and the whys that my old therapists said I was so "insightful". I didn't want to be though. Just want to get over these horrible feelings hence wanting to try EMDR or even somatic therapy. Last time I had therapy was around 2 years ago now and it was really rubbish so ended it.

I don't think good therapy is just talking. A good therapist teaches you how to connect to your emotions. Good therapy for trauma doesn't take place in the head. It takes place in the body.

I read something not long ago that said something along the lines of when a wound is so deep it will have to be processed over many times, sometimes forever. There is no getting away from what happened and the feelings this gives us. It will never be ok and it never should be, so your feelings are always valid and we have to process this over and over. There is not real way to ever make what happened ok. It’s ok to repeatedly feel that it wasn’t.

Absolutely, the nervous system holds alot. I've only come to learn this. Think I've had almost 10 years of counselling now. Some were lovely and made me feel safe. Others were not that great.

@strawberrypjs I agree. I guess there's no time limit on healing and its not all linear either. I've been doing OK for a while but recently been feeling my old feelings towards my parents again. I think now I've stopped my work for a period of time it's given me time to think and feel which I've been avoiding which isnt healthy

I am new on here - although I have been on MN for 15 years. Can anyone suggest how I would manage a dementia diagnosis of the father that was so abusive to me (and started on my dc when they were young) we have been nc for nearly 5 years. Mainly to protect my dc.
My psychologist said he has psychopathic traits and there isn’t much he can do to change it. I spoke to him for the first time by accident last week, and that’s when he told me.

Anyone got any idea on how come some who experienced childhood trauma develop strong empathy and some don’t? Some of the most gentle and kindest people I have met have experienced childhood trauma. And all of the nastiest abusive people Ive met have also experienced childhood trauma. What’s happened to make them so different?

I've thought about that a lot, and imo non sexual sado/masochism is a trait thats a lot more common than we realise.
You'd expect people who have experienced abuse to know not to pass it on, but some people need to offload on to others to regain a sense of self worth. Similar to redirected aggression, they displace the bad feelings on to others.

Some people just enjoy a sense of power over others; some enjoy being centre of attention causing disruption, drama and pain (even if they deny it).
It also ties in to the Karpman drama triangle (Victim, Persecutor, Rescuer) that's so common in disordered people.

I just wanted to share this little insight I experienced. I made a passing comment in the presence of MIL about BIL and his perfectionism and having to keep upgrading and working 7 days a week etc and never resting. It wasn’t said in this way but her answer was really telling. She said it was due to his pride. The golden child is raised with treats being thrown when they achieve. Achieving looks good on the whole family. They don’t tell him to rest, to spend time with his children, to enjoy life because he’ll end up burnt out. They prise him for working and buying stuff. No wonder they aren’t proud of us. Anyway it was interesting to see the narc at work.

I also read this about those who are NPD …Their brains lack receptors for oxytocin the ‘love & bonding' hormone. They don’t get anything out of what many people do, closeness etc.

soulful if he has psychopathic traits then he'll do whatever suits him, I think, so how do you know if the diagnosis is even genuine? He could be trying to hoover you back in.

My thoughts on it is you're NC, so if you hadn't bumped into him you'd never have known about the dementia, one day he'd have died and you'd not have known when or what of. Unless someone else contacted you and told you. So I say remain NC. You had your reasons for it. If you wanted to know about his health and help him out when he needed it, then you'd not have gone NC in the first place. Basically nothing has changed. So why are you thinking of changing things (if you are)?

If it's that you're having mixed feelings about the situation, that's something to sit with and let those feelings clarify themselves over time, then work through them, with professional help if necessary. I don't think you should try to deal with those feelings by acting the dutiful adult-child and re-establishing contact.

That's interesting about the oxytocin strawberry. So they'd get no real pleasure from eg a hug, but basking in reflected glory from eg their child's good exam results would make them happy. And because there's no true love there, no care, MIL won't care if BIL burns himself out. She'll just discard him because he's of no further use to her and go looking for her supply elsewhere. If there's no supply to be had, she'll end up hating him for ceasing to provide it. The golden child would fall from grace and become a scapegoat? All she cares about is her and getting her own messed up needs met.

Regards the abused becoming the abusers. Maybe it's something to do with jealousy? Some people have that as a personality trait and some don't. IDK why that is though, why some people have jealousy and others don't. My understanding is envy is wanting what others have and jealousy is wanting to take away what others have. So an envious abuse victim wants the peace of a non-victim and strives for it in their own life to level things up, while a jealous abuse victim wants to level things up wants by taking away the peace someone else has? They can't do anything to regain their own damaged childhood and make it not damaged, but they can destroy their own children's childhood so their children don't have something they didn't have.

You see a minor version of it often in life, those people who won't help anyone else with anything ever (unless there's something tangible in it for them, like money or a favour owed) because in their own words "why should I? nobody helped me". Whereas the kind people go out of their way to offer help to others like they wished someone had offered help to them when they needed it. (Sometimes going too far and becoming doormats and people-pleasers though).

Thank you for replying. I am not sure I wish to go back to having a relationship with him in full. Perhaps I am sad for his vulnerability and difficulties. My counsellor has just retired, so I am not sure where to turn tbh, I can’t seem to find one as good as she is/was.

I just wondered what people’s experiences are of getting back in touch with a NC parent that isn’t well. He said he is now preoared to be ‘nicer’ to us…. Saying it out loud that feels pretty loaded and unlikely, as a diagnosis is unlikely to change him intrinsically though. I guess I don’t know what to do.

@SamAndAnnie I can’t fully NC these narcs so when we have contact I study them. You can really notice the lack of love connection. There is little acknowledgment when you talk about happy things like where you going away, if you’ve been out with friends. When you talk you usually smiling as you remember you had a good time. This is not mirrored which usually happens when you speak to people. There is zero body language and being very alert I pick up on this instantly, they are totally blocked. When I go into houses of people who love us there are smiles and hugs and genuine pleasure in our presence and our stories. When we visit great in-laws they take loving pleasure of my kids, even tho one is a step great grandchild you’d never guess because their arms are open and so is their heart. A real heart can’t dismiss joy and little faces and smiles and family stories. I think narcs are missing receptors for joy or they twisted up.

PIL never got joy out of my eldest daughter “when” she used to go, despite her running to them with a beamed smile. She simply doesn’t reflect the family so of no use. Never mind that the bond of love would exist regardless because love knows know boundaries. Narcs have lost the ability to love.

You can have sympathy for him, that's understandable, but we are not required to blow up our lives for an aging parent, especially not an abusive one.

He can ask and you can say no. You are allowed to say no. The option is there if you wish to take it, and he can look for help elsewhere. Even if he had been a fantastic parent you still would not be obliged to help him now. It's also known that caring for someone with dementia as a relative can ruin your health - that's why wives caring for husbands with the disease often die before the husband does. Leave it to the professionals.

Why do you feel that you should oblige him? What's the feeling that you are trying to avoid?

My nan has the same illness. She was a bit iffy as a mum to my mum, not a warm loving women at all. She went through a stage earlier in the disease where she was utterly vile. She is now regressed to being a teenager so she is much better. The angry outbursts have gone and she is very timid. It is sad. My mum doesn’t appear to have much emotion for her, certainly doesn’t appear sad that she no longer recognises her.

I want to avoid feeling regret that I didn’t do more.

This is misplaced because he has always said he doesn’t like or love me, and tolerates me for my mother’s sake. He had children for my mother, he doesn’t like children, and was a very angry and unwilling parent lashing out constantly at the strain of normal childhood.

My mother in this scenario is a covert narcissist, so she gets what she wants from him. My father despite his own issues is her enabler. So it’s a complex picture now they are older.

My adult dc won’t have anything to do with either of them, sees them as purely abusive. My dh encourages forgiveness and surface level relationships.

They are my parents. It’s not ideal. I have accepted I won’t have a normal healthy family life with them, it’s impossible for them to offer that. But I wondered what you might suggest that will meet the need to acknowledge his illness - to show compassion and love, but not to be harmed by the situation as it evolves.

So the fear, really, is of a feeling of regret. It's just a feeling, you know, just neurons firing in the body. And you might not even feel it. So you're afraid of something that might not even happen and that even if it does, will be transient. Fwiw my father regularly told me that he'd never wanted children and that my mother had ruined his life by making him have them, so I know what that feels like. It's a horrendous thing to tell a child. Utterly cruel and unnecessary.

I think your father is more than just an enabler tbh. I am dealing with a complicated dynamic in my own parents - my father was an awful man, and I am pretty sure had full blown narcissistic personality disorder. For a long time I saw my mother as only a victim and tried desperately to protect her, but as an adult I can see that it was more complicated than that. I suspect she's got a personality disorder of her own. I won't be helping her in her old age. Fortunately she's attached herself to a sibling for that.

Guilt is better than resentment. You may find you regret helping him, if you choose to do that, so it may be a situation where you can't win. It is ok to put your own wellbeing first.

What sort of help do you imagine yourself offering?

I don’t imagine I will offer any practical help. It would be too awkward. We are not close enough for this to be possible or desirable.

There is a part of me that would like to support him emotionally and comfort him I suppose. Even though we have a long history of his own poor behaviour towards me as a child in hospital. It’s based I think on my humanity - not his.

Fwiw my DH felt the same as yours - be kind, offer surface level relationship, he only problem is that I let her upset me. I asked him once if he saw the same things as me. Her behaviour and he said that he did but because he's detached from it and doesn't have that emotional reaction, it didn't bother him. But over the past year or so it has started to change (she was widowed and it's suddenly become very apparent how much my stepfather was keeping a lid on her behaviour, and also that he was the one who wanted a relationship with my kids). We had friends over at the weekend and DH made a comment that my mother is pretty horrible. He'd never said that before, he'd always minimised it.

I am sorry about your parents. Children of narcissists become unseen and unheard. It is all about them in some shape or another.

We also have to take care not to collect a string of narc friends and relationships. The pattern is harder to break than most people imagine.

It's not inhuman to step back and say I cannot do this for you. It's the opposite, in fact. It gives the person the opportunity to get the care they need from someone who can actually give it. It is not the same as being an active abuser. I've gone over and over this in my head for the past year. Yes, my mother needs support, but it is ok to let other people deal with that need and not take it on myself. I can acknowledge the need and not meet it.
That is not the same as being an active abuser.

Your father can get the help he needs elsewhere. You are not the only person in the world who can provide it. Not providing it doesn't make you a bad person. You may not even be the right person to offer it - do you think he wants emotional support from you?