I don't know how to move forward... again...

[Girlmum2024]

Rather than continue the old thread I wanted to start a new one. This is the old thread - thank you to everyone who replied and helped.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5306368-i-dont-know-how-to-move-forward?latest=1

So, by way of update – I went on the holiday. We barely spoke – he barked at me twice “So, are you going to fix it or not”. You can imagine my response. He becomes increasingly vile when I don’t play to it. We sorted it out when we got home (me weakening when he was talking to me without hostility about something and I just grabbed the opening and went and hugged him) and then as per usual things were amazing and I question myself and why I made such a fuss – I even felt a little ashamed of this thread. Made a huge effort for his bday and things were good, including in the bedroom. Then he went away for business for a week. It was fine for 24hrs after he returned but I’d had a UTI and was on antibiotics and we didn’t have sex for a few days (literally only a few days). He was becoming increasingly withdrawn (normal with everyone else but cold to me, no affection, no engagement, light “peck” back when I go to hug and kiss him to soften him up) and so I decided to raise it gently with him and said “this is an example of what I am talking about when you withdraw, I find it so hard to speak to you or be close to you when you withdraw”. He knows EXACTLY what I mean. But his response was confusion and “what do you mean, you haven’t been near me for weeks and you still haven’t dealt with the note”.

I shouldn’t have been surprised but my jaw was on the floor – really??? Really??? I'm afraid I lost it. Told him there was no way in hell I was doing this again. None. I told him we were done and asked him to leave. I saw red. I can’t deal with the merry go round. NOTHING HAPPENED so WTF are we here again. You can’t keep bringing up the same letter from over a year ago. Even IF there are still things outstanding – how on gd’s green earth does it justify discarding me like that? It hurts so fucking much and fills me with continuous anxiety. How can anyone live like that? Why would you be so cold like that to someone you love? Just why?

So, we’ve not really spoken since. He’s not left but I have never been more resolved to not do this again. I physically can’t even if I wanted to. I literally don’t have an ounce of energy for it. I must be an idiot. It’s always been like this but in the last year it’s literally every few weeks, it is making me go insane.

Anyway.

There’s been another note.

This one was seemingly written to himself (the note is entitled “how to find the courage to leave when you are no longer being respected). This note was left casually lying on his desk in his home office. I’m certain it was left for me to find. His father had popped round to say hi and walked into the office (I watched with interest as my husband subtly placed a book over the note). Later, he removed the book. He left the note sitting there all weekend. Who leaves such a private note lying on top of the desk?

He is now away on business for a week. After he left, I saw he’d tidied the desk and left the note sticking out of a very small notebook.

This is the first para of the note word for word after the title.

Long term continual abuse. All points towards stonewalling with a touch of gaslighting (vis a vis having discussed things) as opposed to simple narcissim – only 40-50% criteria fit. Will not admit it – classic stonewalling in every sense. Evidence laid out* but will not engage. Refuses to do anything to make me think she is committed to working things out.

*presume this means in the 8 pager he sent me

Then followed by a long list of all the nasty things I have said in the history of our marriage. Then continued…

I am not willing any longer to forgo intimacy and by habitual refusal to have sex she has forfeited my fidelity.

It then goes on about me needing therapy to deal with my issues and perhaps he will raise that with me.

He then tails it with the title written in bold again.

I don’t know why I am posting other than I just need to talk and get it off my chest – I am not sure its advice I need. Unless, am I missing something? I keep asking myself that, and then revert to my firm resolve and then question again. I just need to talk about it as I have not told anyone yet IRL and I have a constant low-level anxiety coupled with feelings of excitement that I could finally be free… and then again worry I am missing something.

That’s good news. Hope the meeting goes well.

Good first step.

When you tell him you are divorcing I would go with ‘You are obviously very unhappy so I want you to go and find someone who can validate you in the way you need. Your expectations on me are having a serious impact on my mental health and it’s best for our family if we coparent and end our relationship.’

This way he can’t be the ‘victim’ as you have proof of his unhappiness so it’s a logical step to divorce based on his ‘complaints’. It also gives you the drama free divorce if you frame it as the best thing for him. What’s he going to say — no I was being unreasonable? He’s shown himself incapable of being wrong

Is there any stuff you pay for that you can cancel eg sky sports, streaming services?

Change your mortgage direct debit to half. Borrow some money from his mum, tell her he's left you short and he'll pay her back when he's home.

Do you have a credit card? Apply for one if not, having a line of credit will be helpful for emergencies.

Hope solicitor is helpful, get the key facts and questions together so you can get the most out of the session.

hope the meeting with the solicitor went well.

It went well in the sense that it gave me some clarity about the process and working out a financial settlement. It'd going to be hard and expensive. They are going to follow up with some payment options. Realistically what I really need is help working out the different options, in particular with the house. My brain is not wired that way and I need help to work it through and set out scenarios. the lawyers can do that following very detailed financial disclosure. But will cost me a fortune. Alternative is to reach agreement with him which I can probably do - I just need independent help to figure it out.

In the meantime, if I ask him to leave, that will be expensive for him as he doesn't have anywhere to go. He'd have to rent.

Just feeling drained from the meeting and the stress of it.

In theory we could live together for now but "separately" and I would ask him to pay more towards the bills so I have some money. He has mentioned to the two younger kids (they told me excitedly) that he will take them away for short trips abroad individually on their own over the Summer which would be good. And if he was paying towards the bills it would enable me to get away with the others or even all of them - I don't see why he shouldn't pay towards that too.

I am just feeling really confused and stressed and still not had a peep from him since he has been away which affirms my resolve to end it. Clearly, that may be what he wants too but my gut tells me he is just trying to punish me and force me to do what he wants. He's always been a bully like that. And I know he will already know that financially he would lose a lot - and that would be a real sticking point for him.

Has anyone got any advice for me as to next steps vis a vis engaging with him?

Should I simply let things continue as they are - avoiding each other - only talking for essentials - and wait for him to initiate? It may be he comes home and initiates a conversation at which point I will tell him that it is clearly over and suggest we talk about what happens next.

Or shall I take the bull my the horns and initiate the conversation (i.e. that it is over) as there is every chance he will just continue this charade. I don't want to be manipulated or drawn in to another argument.

When I am going to him with a "let's try and fix it" that's one thing. This is different. I don't think I can come back from it this time and his absence with zero contact is a red line for me (it was previously but I was about to give birth last time!) so it feels like a much harder conversation.

I think it depends on whether you are planning on secretly finding out bank accounts, investments and pensions before you tell him you want a divorce.

If you think he’s going to try and hide assets I would want to gather all the evidence first. If you are not going down that route (or have everything you can at this point) I would take the initiative. Don’t let him start another argument as he will think divorce is an empty threat based on one disagreement.

Sit him down when he returns and tell him your relationship is over as neither of you are happy and you have tried to make it work for years. Tell him you want him to find someone who makes him happy and you want to live your life without unfair expectations. Tell him your children are your priority and you want to give them the best life they can have with two happy but separate parents. Tell him you have sought legal advice but would rather come to your own arrangement if you can agree on a fair split of assets.

After what he wrote in his letter and his lack of contact do you think he’s acting on his threat to cheat? I know you said you wouldn’t care but maybe if he is, he’ll give up easier thinking he will get his validation elsewhere?

I don't think I will find any paperwork as everything is online as far as I have seen - plus I know broadly what he has, just not exact amounts. The lawyers said they would ask for full financial disclosure which is very detailed and I could be wrong but I don't think he'd easily be able to hide his money.

I think you are right about what to say. Thank you. My head is just not very clear right now.

I don't know if he is planning to act on it. I do know that if he did act on his threat he would be highly unlikely to let me or anyone close to us find out. He would not want to be painted as the husband who cheated. His reputation and standing is far too important to him. He only put it in the note to try to manipulate me into backing down - doesn't mean he won't do it - but he'd never admit it if he did. He will say his letter didn't say he WOULD, only that he has a RIGHT to. I know him.

Firstly, anyone who writes ‘vis-a-vis’ in a letter to themselves would make any woman want to vomit.
Secondly, do not speak to his mother. She won’t offer any insight into his behaviours. She is probably the cause of them.
Talk to a good friend, someone who is great with practical advice.
Do not tell him you’ve read his letter.
The thing about sacrificing fidelity? Seems he’s trying to communicate there is somebody else, or at least he’s lined up his next victim…
You haven’t been an idiot. You’ve been a loving person.
He sounds…. unhinged. I can remember in your last thread the whole ‘rock star’ thing. He’s absolutely delusional, OP.
At this stage, I wouldn’t think about what’s right for him, only for you.
He’s probably dying for you to bring up the letter, or he future. I wouldn’t. He’s gone away and not given you or your DC a thought.
He should get the same upon his return.
There was a thread in here quite recently about a lady whose husband would only eat beige food and she was always trying to placate him. Over time she discovered he was having an affair and planning to move abroad with his OW, whilst still mentally abusing her. She played her cards close to her chest until she had solid plans.
A life of freedom awaits and he should be worried, because he’s not a rock star. And the new letter is pathetic - he sounds psychotic.
Whatever picture he is trying to paint is about getting inside your head and convincing you that you are unstable.
It is a wicked thing to do.
Speak to your most trusted friends, don’t worry about your parents for now, and try and take things steadily.
He wants a reaction. Give him none.
And his mother was never your friend, and won’t be now.

This goes over two threads. A great read for inspiration:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5283554-husbands-food-preferences-driving-me-crazy

Op do you need a conversation with him, I wouldn't, go on gov.uk website and start the divorce process they will email him a copy, he has to agree of course in email,

Let him know by doing this your taking control of this ewful situation were he is calling all the shots well know take control by starting the divorce process, see how he takes not having the upper hand for once,

Easy to fill in, process can take from months to 9 months if he agrees of course, but the point here op is your taking control now, not him with his letter writing, expecting you to fall into place,
Let him get an email ( divorce proceedings ) see how he deals with that, am sure he'll want to talk then ,
Get ahead of him op, take some control back, 💐

I would suggest that you buy yourself more time to get ahead of him right now.

I wouldn’t tell him you want a divorce until you have the paperwork in hand.

You have a head start right now as he’s too bloody arrogant to think you’ve taken the initiative, but given his access to money (your joint savings btw) he has a lot of capacity to play catch up.

So I’d keep my distance and let him keep being him and keep a record of his actions.

I would never normally advocate putting bills on a credit card but you need legal advice asap and you can claim it back as part of any settlement.

So don’t scrimp on this. He won’t.

Great thread - I got totally sucked into it :-) I'd love to know how Jessa is getting on as the thread closed about 3 months ago. I hope she is doing amazing!!

I will hold tight for now. He is due home today (though not bothered to say what time and when he left said "might" be home today or "might" need to stay longer but the a-hole still hasn't bothered to let his family know either way).

I will just take some steps to get my finances in order and make a bit of a plan,

Thanks everyone for your support - didn't know MN could be such a force of a community, So so grateful.

Also, just to say, I love how he has decided I am only 40-50% narcissist! I wonder if he recognised any of the "criteria" in himself when he was assessing me

I thought that when I read the "letter" bit on your post too! You might not need therapy after all, he has already assessed you! Lol

It’s stupid isn’t it?

Which bit? A narc right leg that puts itself above the rest of your body? Or are you only a narc 50% of the week.

He clearly doesn’t understand the term (or see it in himself) as it’s not something you switch on/off - which is why he is a full time asshole.

I don’t know if this might help but if you’re paying a mortgage you can take a 6 month interest only break - just pay int only. See money saving expert. It doesn’t affect your credit - it’s a govt cost of living relief thing. Check it out. you could use the difference to build up a fund. It’s an idea.

Thanks all.

The solicitor was helpful in giving me clarity on what I would be entitled to given a "long" marriage. Essentially, minimum 50% of everything - including savings and pension, but that given the imbalance in earning and that I would have the kids most of the time they'd be pushing for significantly more. Meanwhile I will be asking him to start paying 50% of all the household expenses and for access to our "joint savings" - not least so that I a) have money leftover for myself each month and b) can also afford to book things like holidays. I don't see why he should have the luxury of taking the kids away (albeit individually) for a holiday but I don't get to have one! Grateful for any thoughts on this.

When he came back from his trip he had changed his tone a bit. Acted cold but engaged and proactively told me about the trip and how business is and asked about the kids. We are not speaking generally but will do as required. The first night he was back my youngest went to sleep in bed with me - as has been the case whenever he is away. He came in to move her as he usually does and I asked that he leave her that night. He got angry and said "where am I meant to sleep" and I said he could sleep wherever he wanted. He then yelled at me and said "DO YOU WANT ME TO LEAVE? JUST SAY IT AND I WILL BE GONE". I ignored him and said I wanted to go to sleep. He carried on demanding I answer and yelled WHAT DO YOU WANT? And I said I just want a decent partner. He responded with "so do I". He wouldn't drop in though and continued to yell DO YOU WANT ME TO LEAVE. I said it's your choice and I'd like to go to sleep now. He carried on yelling saying "JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION - WHATS IT TO BE" I refused to answer and told him to leave me alone to sleep and not to be a bully. At this point youngest woke up and I cuddled her back to sleep whilst he eventually left the room. He slept on the sofa or her room (our spare room is not inhabitable at the moment) I am not sure as he was up before me.

I don't know why I didn't answer him. I didn't like how he was demanding an answer and almost making ME accountable. As if he wanted me to tell him to go so I could be blamed for the break up. I obviously want him gone but I don't want to play into his hands. He has not mentioned it again. He sleeps in the bedroom but we go up at different times.

The note is still on the desk.

Normally, I break and go and fix it. I just cannot this time. I feel I have reached my absolute limit.

I feel I am being weak but it feels like a lot and I don't feel strong.

I think you were right not to say it during an argument but I do think you need to tell him. I would suggest a calm environment once the children have gone to bed. The longer you wait, the worse the atmosphere will get.

You are not backing down this time. Are you waiting on the chance that he finally apologises and takes accountability?

Do you think he could be violent? He seems to need to be in control of the narrative and he is emotionally abusive. You telling him the relationship is over is taking the control away from him. Either he will take it well because this is what he wants but he wants you to do it, or he will take it very badly because he can no longer control you. These can be dangerous situations even if no physical violence has been shown before. If you think it’s a possibility he could lash out maybe have a close friend or family member in the house when you have the conversation.

@Girlmum2024 you are going to end up I’ll putting up with this- it’s simply not working - it’s possible to care about someone but it just no longer works Asa relationship - this happens a lot - I feel like this too -

I don't know exactly what I am waiting for but even despite the history and the writing on the wall I don't want to rush into it as it will no doubt spiral once I tell him in black and white. A part of me feels I should wait for the school holidays to be over and I want to see how that will play out.

I don't have hope he will take accountability - that is not going to ever happen and even if he did I don't know that I could ever want to be with him again.

Maybe I am also waiting whilst I figure things out financially. I don't want to give him the chance to screw me over but I am not decided in my mind what I want with the house for example. I just need to figure things out and I feel a little overwhelmed so just trying to take it slow.

Have just read both threads and I feel for you. To be honest, whenever you do it, it is going to be pretty horrible for a bit, and I'm not sure there is much to be gained from putting it off. I know that feeling of dread when you're so apprehensive of how someone will take the news, but in many ways that is the worst part and if you can bite the bullet I think you'll feel a sense of relief. The fact that he's actually threatening you with him leaving is a positive in my opinion, it suggests to me that his default in the event of you separating would be to flounce off, rather than insisting that he remains in the house.

Just to say, personally I read "she has forfeited my fidelity" as him saying that he's already sleeping with others. It almost doesn't matter at this point but I certainly wouldn't be sleeping with him again.

I agree with everything everybody else has said and I found the manipulation in this particular part of his letter absolutely chilling: by habitual refusal to have sex she has forfeited my fidelity.

He is giving himself permission to cheat whilst blaming you for his potential infidelity! Jeez, what a head f*ck. Like the others, I think you shouldn't mention the second note, pretend you haven't seen it, he will be disappointed.

When he shouts "DO YOU WANT ME TO LEAVE?" could you shout back "DO YOU WANT TO LEAVE? YOU ARE SAYING YOU WANT TO LEAVE ARE YOU?" or something like that, putting the ball back in his court.

I am embarrassed to say this given all the replies but I think I a still also scared that I am being an idiot and if I wasn't so "stubborn" and I was a better wife I'd be able to keep my family together. I still keep going over and over it thinking there are things I could do differently and if I was a better person I'd just treat my husband they way he wants. Maybe I am broken because I don't think I can be different in practice - I want to be but I can't with him. I feel like I despise him for being so cruel and not giving an actual shit about me and how I feel. Maybe I am not even making sense.

It would be different if he had done something like been blatantly unfaithful. But like I said, he'd never allow that to cast a shadow over him - with everyone else he is charm personified. He even just had one of my best friends come round to collect a really expensive wine collection that he is donating to her charity - she's blown him kisses at the door telling him how amazing and generous he is. I feel actually sick.

I agree with everything everybody else has said and I found the manipulation in this particular part of his letter absolutely chilling: by habitual refusal to have sex she has forfeited my fidelity.

The thing is I don't habitually refuse. In fact genuinely, I can't think of any times I have said no to him. But he doesn't ask for it - his whole thing is that I have to ask for it and make him feel wanted. Of course I have asked him what he does to initiate or make me feel wanted but he gaslights and mentions that "he came home early" or "he came to bed having obviously just showered". or it was "obvious I was too tired." It's always my fault.