Success stories with anxious / avoidant relationships?

[tecbrowidow]

I've been reading a lot about attachment styles, something honestly I wish I'd done before settling down, but alas, no time machine. I've got an anxious style, which means I get very preoccupied with my relationship and bend over backwards to resolve issues, often taking responsibility when really it's not my problem to solve and when I'm out of energy. To my partner the burnout and subsequent requests for help look like me being critical of him or making unreasonable demands. My partner has an avoidant style, which means if he feels criticised or there's an issue his response is to go silent and back right off. Raising a child, managing a home and working full time without enough emotional or practical support from my partner leaves me lonely, miserable, cross and exhausted a lot of the time. I don't want to separate because I think we might be able to move on from stalemate and rebuild a the happy relationship we used to have. I'd like to hear from other people who have been stuck in the anxious / avoidant dynamic and managed to get back to a healthy place?

@Mumofnarnia he didn't love bomb, if anyone's guilty of that it's me. When we started out one of the first things I did was take us both on a lovely holiday to Morocco because I'd always wanted to go, but I know it's a pretty unpleasant place for solo female travelers. I think maybe he was wowed by my ability to pay for a nice trip like that, but I've not really made good on that initial promise, because usually I'm pretty stingy and since that trip we've only done weekends in the UK or holidays with his mum (which she pays for).

@Mumofnarnia also he does a lot of childcare and housework, but he's very very resistant to new things or change. So typically he takes our daughter out for a few hours at the weekend if I need to catch up on sleep, it's just I'd like to experience sleeping through the whole night once a week because being sleep deprived and catching up by sleeping in the afternoons is making me miserable. He does more cooking than me and he's basically the only one who does the dishwasher. I'm the only one who looks after our daughter's laundry, and I manage household finances, most things to do with the nursery and any doctors visits, and any overnight wake ups from our child after midnight and that's the killer because she wakes up pretty much every night at about 2am, and I can't get back to sleep for a couple of hours after that wake up.

You get the lowest common denominator here—not what you want but what he eill give which is nothing. You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

At the end of the day he will have known he ‘can’t do’ relationships. But in the beginning of each relationship, they have a bunch of false promises that make you believe they want you and that they want a relationship, only to become distant and unemotional and unhappy! He will have had a string of relationships that ended the same way. This man knew how he would turn out but lead you on a merry dance full of fake promises and fake love. It may not have been love bombing in the narcissistic sense of showering you with gifts and fake promises but there will have been some love bombing of some sort, even if only very subtle.

It sounds like his mum is terrible at communicating with him, too. If she needs help, she needs to directly ask him for what she needs. I can't bear people who hint and beat around the bush and then get mad at you for not reading their minds. That sort of behaviour is enough to make anyone find relationships - and other people - baffling, when they insist on speaking in code and not being direct about what they need from you.

His family/upbringing sound like they are the reason he is avoidant tbh. But if he won't recognise it, or do anything to work on it and change it, like therapy, then I don't know what you can do other than work on yourself, get your own therapy to support you in working on your own stuff, and ultimately become less dependent on him and able to see a life beyond him.

Op, here is what you said further up your thread
“I requested one night and morning a week where he handles toddler wake ups so I can get more than five hours sleep in a block, he grudgingly agreed, but he gave up on the morning childcare and brought my daughter in to me in the end. So this week I'm spending my full night's sleep in a hotel nearby”

Now you’re saying he does do a lot of childcare. So which one is it?

Therapy. Individually. Learn about yourself first, because that’s the longest relationship you’ll have with anyone.

I’m older so the labels weren’t as developed, but I recognise the styles. We worked it through. And perhaps as importantly continue to do the work, but it’s not hard work.

I agree. Having an avoidant parent means their children are also likely to grow up being avoidant.

Its also likely that he knows that once he helps his mum, that she will then just become unemotional and avoidant towards him again so he’s subconsciously trying to save himself the hurt.

And yes I hate the passive aggressive shit they do of talking/ doing things in ‘code’ and getting angry when the other person hasn’t got a clue what they want! But I can’t stand passive aggressive people anyway and I just ignore their passive aggressive shit nowadays.

I know it goes against all your people pleasing, insecure attachment instincts but you have to realise you can't fix him! But you can show him whats out there, should he decide to want to.

Would he listen to some relationship counselling podcasts, just to see if that might open his mind to the idea? Perhaps find an Ester Perel episode that you think might 'click' for him?

I'm coming to the realisation that my attachment style is anxious (although heavily masked!) and internal family systems therapy seems to be a good fit for how I might make sense of this, if I ever get up the courage to start therapy!

I'm finding Eva Beronius's podcast, Uncover You, interesting. Episode #93 is the start of a 1:1 coaching session that might be interesting for you.

Weirdly on a related thread I started here most people vote for me staying in the relationship.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/ethical_dilemmas/5346041-should-i-have-a-second-child-and-how

Op it’s up to you. You came on here asking for advice. People who have experience of dealing with avoidants have spoken up and advised you of what they think you should do but you seem to want to defend him and try to justify why you feel you should stay. It’s up to you, but you seem extremely unhappy with your relationship and frustrated by him, yet keep also trying to defend him because the anxiousness in you is making you do so.

As a fearful avoidant myself (which has both the avoidant and anxious traits rolled into one) and having been in a relationship with a dismissive avoidant myself, I can tell you that the dismissive avoidant is the worst, most toxic attachment style of the lot. At least a fearful avoidant has the capacity to love, a dismissive avoidant rarely has that same capacity and most of the time are unable to love (except in very exceptional circumstances). If he is unwilling to help himself and instead backs out of therapy then there really is no hope for you! You are bringing your child up in this toxic environment and all you are teaching your child is how to be treated like a doormat by someone who doesn’t give a shit about you, is emotionless, passive aggressive and dismissive.

Besides…. look where staying in the relationship has got you! You’re still unhappy and posting on here again.

Therapy.

Sorry I find this ending hilarious 😆

the total lack of self awareness with these individuals is looking back almost amusing. I genuinely can’t wrap my head around how they make it through life but that isn’t my problem anymore.

That’s not true? 42 percent voted for you to leave the relationship and stop trying for a second child.

At a certain point you have to grasp that there is more here than just attachment style. Have you considered that you may also have a character strategy rooted in covert narcissism? You portray yourself as helpless and anxious but, though you may experience anxiety, you are also very determined to get what you want and you are not at all unwilling to demand, manipulate, love bomb (the expensive holiday), and to ignore his stated desires where they conflict with your own. You are also willing to misrepresent the vote on your own other thread if it gives you more power and leverage on this anonymous forum.

Everyone has narcissistic aspects to their personality or can rely on those traits to navigate relationships. Your determination to squeeze the love you want out of this avoidant man seems to me to require some unpacking. Do you think you are entitled to him after all you have done for him? Do you think you are entitled to a happy ending because of your suffering as an anxious attacher?

My point here is that you need to draw back—through therapy—and learn more about yourself. Or you can’t get out of this trap you are in if resentfully pursuing this man.

This is ridiculous, OP. You’re just desperately trying to find a rationale for staying in a relationship that isn’t working for you. You gave completely different information in that thread, so no wonder you got different answers.

It’s also significant on this thread that you say you see it as a choice between ‘going back to horrific dating experiences’ and ‘trying to repair this relationship ’.

Bluntly, it’s not. There’s the very obvious option of being single, having an amiable co-parenting relationship with your ex, and directing all the vast amounts of emotional energy you’ve put into trying to shore up this foundering relationship towards yourself and your child. You’re financially independent. There’s nothing stopping you except the sunk cost fallacy.

If you didn’t find it hilarious you’d cry.

I actually do feel that a lot of them do have self awareness. The guy I was talking about certainly knew that this new woman she was dating was avoidant as he told me himself so he must have known what avoidant behaviour is. They must know that the way they behave isn’t normal behaviour in relationships but it’s their complete refusal to admit it.
Instead they go through life blaming everyone else for their own toxic behaviour because they don’t want to deal with it.

They really should not ever get into relationships but they unfortunately do for selfish reasons - usually for sex but then they don’t even feel an emotional connection through that either!

i doubt this is anywhere on the scale of narcissism. I deal with a lot of narcissistic people.

Being anxiously attached doesn’t make someone a narcissist, equally being avoidant attached doesn’t mean that someone is a narcissist either (despite narcissists and avoidants seemingly sharing similar traits).

The issue with anxiously attached people is they feel neglected very easily (for no good reason) which may cause them to override the feelings of someone who is avoidant. An avoidant wants to be left alone while an anxious person doesn’t want to be on their own and finds it difficult to be alone. Neither attachment style can understand the other. This then causes an avoidant person to override the anxious persons feelings by becoming dismissive, passive aggressive, avoidant and just generally shutting down. In turn someone who is anxiously attached desperately tries to pull the avoidant back in by being too intense which pushes the avoidant further and further away. It’s a recipe for disaster.

Avoidants don’t fair well in any sort of relationship and seem completely incompatible with anyone. They are completely toxic and just cause destruction wherever they go. It’s pure torture for the person on the receiving end. In this case, the op is on the receiving end.

I think the word ‘narcissist’ is thrown about way too often on MN. I’m not really seeing anything narcissistic about the op. Frustrated and upset, yes. But not narcissistic,

Narcissism is on a spectrum—like anything else. I am pointing to the same thing you are which is to get her emotional needs met she overrides his—she also continually uses her self diagnosis as anxiously attached to excuse all kinds of problematic behavior.

Being anxiously attached is a reason for her behavior but it is not an excuse. She chooses to try to control and manipulate him to get her need for love met and she can not tolerate his preferred style or his autonomous existence. She presents herself as the victim here and refuses to accept his implicit and explicit “no.”

Narcissism is overused as a dx by the punters and frequently misunderstood but plenty of people are covert narcissists to a small degree. They can be lovely, generous, people or whining, self obsessed, permanent victims but their motivation is to get their emotional needs and ego gratification met by other people’s love and admiration. They will get it any way they can.

I’m very well aware of what narcissism is and I’m very well aware it’s on a spectrum! And it also seems that the op’s DH is also controlling and manipulating her too - because he’s also not getting his own needs met.

I agree with you to a certain extent and I also agree that the op is probably overriding his boundaries but that doesn’t make her a narcissist.

Im not sure if you are familiar with avoidant behaviours but from experience, I’ll tell you how a avoidant person navigates relationships.

An avoidant will generally claim they are ‘self sufficient’, ‘independent’ and ‘doesn’t need anybody’ so it’s common for them to spend huge chunks of their life alone and not being in a relationship. They then decide that they want/ miss intimacy so will purposely seek out a new date. In the beginning stages of dating, an avoidant is all sunshine and roses as they go head first at 100mph into the dating phase by future faking, claiming that they want a relationship with the other person, that they wish to have kids and move in together and all that bullshit (but in reality then generally know deep down they are unable to offer this). It really is similar to the love bombing phase of a narcissist. The only thing is, an avoidant is non emotional so they don’t get into a relationship for emotional, they generally get into a relationship because they need intimacy (or should I say sex) but they generally don’t have the balls to admit that they don’t actually want a relationship so essentially lead people on.

Once the other person starts to fall for them, the avoidant can sense this which triggers them and they completely back off and even ghosts the very person who they told they want to be in a relationship with. They also do a lot of passive aggressive things to purposely try and sabotage the relationship hoping that the other person will just leave. But they won’t just say to the other person “this isn’t working”, they will play mind games, be extremely passive aggressive and blame the other person and call them too ‘intense’ for being called out about their ghosting and passive aggressive behaviour. Once confronted about their behaviour enough times, they become extremely dismissive and shut down and even ghost the other person, not replying to messages for days at a time. Or disappearing for months on end and then reappearing again and claiming they want to make another go of it. Only to then ghost and discard again when things get too ‘intense for them’. I’ve heard of dismissive avoidants just blocking people that they have been in 10 year relationships with only to never be seen again. I’ve seen even the most securely attached person I know become affected by this sort of person. It’s an extremely toxic dynamic.

Neither of their behaviours are healthy but it’s not completely the op’s fault.

I keep reading about avoidant attachment styles. Can any of you experienced posters recommend where I can I read about this? Thanks.

Good luck OP.

There is someone on YouTube who has made lots of videos about various attachment styles. I think her name is Thais Gibson or something like that. It’s really interesting.

MumofNarnia, you are talking about really extreme avoidance, practically tipping over into sociopathy. It's possible for a person to be avoidant but still maintain a loving relationship. I should know, I'm one myself, but I'm not the monster you're painting here.

Can't speak for the OP's partner, but some people do love and respect others, yet are reluctant to engage with or talk about their own feelings. I don't believe it's impossible for them to change, with therapy. See the podcast I mentioned above (Secure Love with Julie Menanno), where she works through all this with a similar couple, and they make progress.

There's probably something on this list that would suit. I've read the Diane Poole Heller one and it's a good introduction, but Susan Johnson is also a safe bet imo

https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/best-books-on-attachment-theory

Thanks 😊