Marital arguments

[Dalmationlover]

Had an argument the other day with OH about our parenting strategies. We normally have quite reasonable discussions but this one escalated we were both angry, and he started yelling at me towering over , getting in my face. We ended the discussion and said let talk about it later. The argument was definitely both of our faults.
I asked him where this was coming from and he said it’s just an argument and when asked why he was doing that he insisted it’s just an argument. Then he said this was regularly how his parents argued , my FIL would yell a lot, punch and smash things, shout at my MIL for manipulating him, she would make snippy and defensive comments and (from his point of view) try to manipulate FIL into yelling again. We have been married over 6 years and I have never seen this side of him or my in laws so it shocked me. He has agreed it’s not a healthy way to argue etc but I am worrried that these were his role models and he has actually witnessed domestic abuse. He does not want to discuss it any further and I don’t think I really discussed it enough at the time he said it. I didn’t say I think that was domestic abuse. Would you bring this up again or wait for him to? In laws occasionally mind our children (although haven’t recently and live a while away, no plans to imminently but him and the older kids are visiting without me in a few weeks) so I’m concerned about that.

'Frankly Jim, however your parents argued aside, if you ever pull that shit with me again, I'm gone'.

It sounds to me like he's testing the water for how much abuse you'll tolerate. Implying his mother 'provoked' abuse is very mysoginustic sounding. Telling you 'his dad' punched and broke things during arguments (sociopath behaviour).

He's telling you how he intends to move forwards imo.

If he ever makes you feel intimidated again, leave.

Tbh, I'd maybe be inclined to go now. There's no excuse for his behaviour.

He may be bullshitting about his parents relationship in order to justify himself too. Abusers like to say 'everyone else thinks/does it' and imply you are the one with the problem for not tolerating their bs.

It's not normal op and you know this.
I'd suspect there's been other things that you've maybe glossed over in recent years. I'd also wonder if he'd been hitting incel podcasts. Or if he was cheating, as that can make them suddenly turn mean.

Thank you. Yes I am in 2 minds. When I had said to him if that happens again I’m going, he kind of shrugged and said well don’t make sarcastic comments again and don’t provoke me. I said to him it didn’t feel that he’s taken accountability for his behaviour and he was like no of course I’m sorry and regret it etc.

We owe a lot of money on a house together we moved in recently and I think would be very difficult to sell as was on the market years before we got it, we have 3 gorgeous very young children and don’t want to shake things up for their sakes and I couldn’t face not having them some of the time. I love him very much and had never thought about divorce until this argument. I also have very conservative family who would not be accepting of this.

Would he consider individual or couples therapy?

I'm surprised to hear this has come out of the blue. Any other indications of 'temper'? Flare ups? Sulking? Silent treatment?

OP the bottom line is that he got aggressive and was trying to intimidate you into backing down.

It doesn't matter why. What matters is his behaviour is completely unacceptable. This kind of behaviour usually escalates and he's given you forewarning of how it's likely to go.

Yes I’d probably say he could have a bad temper sometimes but nothing of this scale it was scary and I considered calling the police at the time , which I think made it worse because he was then cross that that could cause issues at his work etc

I might suggest therapy. I doubt he has time tbh he’s constantly working shifts or on his laptop doing career development stuff. Certain he’s not having an affair as he’s either in work and I have all his shifts in the calendar , or at home

It's similar behaviour to a dog. They growl to warn you and then they'll attack. The growls have been his flares of temper, keeping you in check, the attack was him trying to intimidate you and it will escalate from there.

The red flags are usually there from the start but many don't know what they are or ignore them. They escalate and if you don't act you're in deep water.

Often abuse starts when they think they have you trapped.

Be careful of the mindset that you can't leave.
Start considering instead, how you can leave. IF you need to.

You say your family is conservative but, don't they also love you? Why would anyone who loves you want you to stay in an environment where you are threatened or intimidated. Or, for their grandkids to witness their mother being treated this way? Would they support you staying in the vicinity of a stranger on the street that made you feel unsafe? Why is it any different from a partner? If anything it's worse as this person is supposed to be your safe place.

You are an adult now so whilst I understand your concern about what others will think, they don't get to dictate your life. Sometimes we need to make choices other people won't agree with. You tell them your reasons and that they can support you in your decusions or, frankly, mind their own business.

Religion wise, if that's relevant to their conservative beliefs, god in Christianity frowns very much on men who abuse women. There's nothing that would say you have to stay and tolerate an evil behaviour.

Make sure you have your own separate bank account that you put money in. Look into the logistics of leaving. Rather than being stuck in the worries of why you couldn't.

And don't let him guilt you with the 'i'll lose my job' bullshit.

If you ever feel unsafe again you should call the police. If he loses his job as a result of that (unlikely surely) that's completely on him.

Thank you. Yes I think I need to get myself sorted just in case. I think he knows I feel like I could never leave and you’re right that has probably contributed to this. I don’t think he realises the impact of this on us as after I tried to talk about it this morning he came downstairs in his work break acted like nothing had happened and was trying to book accommodation for our planned holiday in the summer.

I’m sure my family would be supportive if I did leave if this escalates, but would be shocked and I could easily move in with my parents if I needed they are very involved with my kids. I sort of want to talk to my mum about it but I’m afraid she will hold it against my DH if I don’t decide to split. We have a lovely house together but I’m a lot less bothered about money and nice house etc than he is. I’m currently on maternity leave but even so will have enough to get by with my maternity salary. My main money worry is I borrowed money from my family (and his too) for our house and I would want to be able to pay my parents back.

"he kind of shrugged and said well don't make sarcastic comments again and don't provoke me"

That is putting the blame for his bad temper 100% on to you. Can't you see how wrong that is? He is attempting to control you by threatening you with abuse if you step out of line.

Do you know how my ex used to justify his violent abuse against me?
He said: "Why do you make me so angry? It's all your fault. If you didn't make me angry I wouldn't hit you, would I?"

“Don’t provoke me”

He’s warning you he will do this again. Plan to leave. Put a lot of energy into planning. If he doesn’t do it again, great. But I believe he will.

The fact he said don't wind me up and make sarcastic comments is he will blame you for making him react like that.He will eventually start smashing things up and move onto pushing you around to get you to back down.

Maybe look into why the house took so long to sell initially.

Maybe it needs a lick of paint. Having lived in it now, what would you change that you think might have left it on the market so long?

That way, if there's a need to sell, hopefully you will get your money back and soon.

Oh I so badly hope this isn’t true I don’t think I’m strong enough to deal with leaving 😭 he’s can make things seem like my fault. the most important thing to me is my kids. I don’t want to shake their lives up he’s a lovely dad and I just don’t want them not to be with me half the time or worse 😭

RE the house it is quite a big house for the area we are in too and it also has some spray roof insulation that multiple mortgage companies said no to. i don’t understand a lot of this though, I could look into. I guess there is always those we buy any house companies if we needed to. I can’t face organising another house move it definitely added so much stress to us and I organised majority of and we moved when I was 5 days postpartum in October 🫣

To be fair, it would be a worse blow to your children's life to stay with an angry man. In turn, they, thinking it normal, will go in to have abusive relationships also.

It might not come to it but, you need to be prepared to go if it does.

The 'he can make it seem like it's my fault' is another red flag worry often found in abusive relationships. They make you feel like 'everyone will think xyz' about you. They trap you in a cycle of 'prove your goodness/worth/innocence/loyalty/love etc...' and you get so busy doing that that you don't stop to realise it's all a trap designed to keep you from escaping.

Frankly, who cares what other people think! You don't owe anyone a relationship. And if you leave him, most people would assume 'she must have jolly good reason as women don't tend to leave men when they've got 3 kids to think of unless they have good reasons'. Which, you have, arguably already. Certainly if the behaviour repeats.

Nothing is worse for a child than a household with mum walking on eggshells trying to placate a bad tempered bully. Seeing their mother sad and ill treated.

And let's be real, even when it's a 50 50 situation childcare wise, is he actually capable of that? Lots of guys may say they want that...but won't be arsed to do it.

It's also a common concern that you'd have less time with the kids but, many women then find that actually it's a good thing for them as it gives them time for other pursuits and to have a life outwith just being mum. It just seems a scary thought at first. But kids are better off between two stable homes than trapped in one unstable home.

Thank you so much for your advice it is really helpful. I find it hard to discuss openly with anyone as I don’t want my friends hating him if I don’t decide to leave. I am so lucky I’ve got a great support network where I live.

i think I might talk to some legal advice just in case. Despite me saying to him if it happens again I am leaving he 100% will not expect me to go if it does. But I think you’re right I do need to be prepared to. It has been an eye opener. I am slightly concerned that he probably doesn’t have a good support network if it came to it where we live, a long way from where he grew up and we both studied. We have been here 7 years and he has friends in his colleagues and gets on with my friends.

he is a very hard working man and dedicated to his profession, loves the kids. I feel so sad that there are definite these red flags

Remind him that he grew up seeing his father abuse his mother. Does he want his own children to grow up seeing the same as he did?

Yes this is true. Although he doesn’t see it as abuse , says all couples have arguments and wonders why his mother kept triggering his dad to doing that. Today he said he doesn’t want to talk about his parents.
I do get on with his parents particularly his dad so well so I was shocked about this. Mil and me slightly more strained but nothing drastic.
thankfully the kids were all asleep for the argument and he has agreed it would be bad for our kids to witness that behaviour

OP my dad looks quiet and timid to others, but he used to take his anger out on my mum when I was a child. He would shout at her, make her cry. They are still together, but she is still afraid of him. I always wanted my mum to stand up to him. I suppose I am saying don't cower, if u do it will get worse. Find ur strength now and tell him this is not acceptable behaviour. 'Don't provoke me' - who does he think he is? He can grow up, or he can fuck off.

I’m sorry about your parents. Thank you

He wonders why his mother kept triggering his dad into the abuse because that's what his dad said she was doing.

Do NOT do joint therapy with an abuser.

He was trying to intimidate you physically and it seems like he's setting the stage for escalating.

I would get my ducks in order. Get copies of important papers, have a go bag with things you might need if you have to escape the house, like copies of your id documents, copies of your house and car keys, a prepaid cc, some clothes and toiletries, some things for the kids, maybe a burner phone and stash it somewhere he won't find it like a friend's house. Know how to use a private browser. Hopefully you won't need it, but if you do, you've got it.

I think we have semi sorted for now ., but I’m going to get prepared just in case.

We had a long but level headed discussion yesterday evening about it on which he did apologise for his behaviour eventually (lots of “I am sorry but if you’d have been listenings” etc first). Just before he went to bed there was a lot of huffing about how we’ve wasted the evening and we could have just sorted this when they first happened etc.

practically, if it gets like that again I will go and stay at my parents - has anyone had to leave mid argument? I think if I start getting 3 young kids out of beds and into car seats (which isn’t a quick task I couldn’t carry them all at once) that would massively escalate things and I wouldn’t want the kids to see any escalation. Would you wait until he goes to bed and put up with it until then and then get them all and go? I wouldn’t ever leave without them and I know I can call the police if things did escalate but also he’s their dad too so surely the police could say I have to leave the kids?

"We had a long but level headed discussion yesterday evening about it on which he did apologise for his behaviour eventually (lots of “I am sorry but if you’d have been listenings” etc first). Just before he went to bed there was a lot of huffing about how we’ve wasted the evening and we could have just sorted this when they first happened etc."

He doesn't sound at all genuinely apologetic, OP. He doesn't understand that he has dangerous thinking (blaming you for HIS unacceptable behaviour) and that he, as an adult male who is twice as strong as you, crossed the Rubicon with his aggressive behaviour. Because he doesn't get it, he WILL repeat his frightening behavior and possibly go further than he did this time.

You shouldn't let this go. RIGHT NOW is the time to nip this in the bud, not later when he's terrorized you again and you're even deeper in the relationship with him. That's when his abusive behavior will become more violent and the children will see it. You have to impress on him the consequences NOW.

If I was you, I'd take the kids to your parents NOW and insist that he attend a domestic abuse perpetrator program. Only once he has shown real understanding of how his blaming mentality and violent behavior put you and the marriage at risk will you return. You need an ally, so tell a friend/your mother.

Being this stern and resolute is the only chance here. And it will ultimately HELP him to be a better husband and parent and to have a better marriage where his wife feels safe.

www.thechange-project.org/domestic-abuse/