Is this just what friendships/people are like?

[FriendshipWoes]

I'll start by saying I'm diagnosed with ASD and ADHD. I also have a background of trauma because I wasn't diagnosed until adulthood and experienced a lot of childhood abuse from my parents, who tried to punish stimming, meltdowns and general quirkiness out of me to make me be like 'other children'. Which, unsurprisingly, failed.

I'm intelligent and well educated so whilst I probably haven't achieved what I could have otherwise, I've managed to create an OK life for myself with an OK standard of living - I have a professional career although I'm not high earning. People don't generally realise I'm ND unless they have it in their family and recognise traits in me.

I know I see things in fairly black and white terms and this is where I'm not sure if my issues are to do with me or perception of things.

There's a lot i find difficult, but I'll stick to just one element.

I don't have many friends. I've always struggled with friendships. The girls at school didn't like me so most of my friends were boys. They didn't expect me to be like them because I was a girl so the differences between us were put down to that rather than just because I wasn't very good at being a girl. The girls preferred each other because they were more similar and I was 'weird'.

None of those friendships with boys were long lasting though because, ultimately, I was a girl and I had a few experiences of realising the boys were only friends with me because they fancied me and I wasn't interested in any of them in that way so it put me off.

I moved away to university at 18 and all I really wanted were some good female friends. I met a woman who was a couple of years older than me. I left university because I couldn't cope and we moved in together. I got a job. Quite quickly, she started to bully me in my eyes. I wasn't really interested in a relationship so was always single. She was looking for a husband so always 'on the pull'.

If a man spoke to me or a man she was interested in asked me out, she would become verbally aggressive, intimidating and sometimes threatened physical harm (she threatened to put cigarettes out in my eyes once because a man she was interested in asked me out). I never dated or flirted with anyone she was interested in for clarity. She spoke badly of me, other women avoided me and the idea that no one liked me was strengthened. I think I must have missed something in the way others perceive me.

By my early 20s, I'd pretty much given up in the idea of having friends because it was too complicated. I started dating a man I'd known from school (one of the boys I'd been friends with). We eventually married and raised two children together for a few years until he met someone he actually had feelings for and left. I wasn't upset. I didn't love him like a spouse and we continued to co-parent well until the youngest went to university. I have very good relationships with my children despite my 'difficulties'.

I spent the next 10+ years single. Focused on raising my children, working and establishing hobbies through which I finally made some good (I thought) female friends.

Every one of those friendships has fallen by the wayside though and now I have very few friends again. I meet people and I know people from work but I'm not able to make those friendships.

What I have found in the last few years when I've made friends with women is that there seems to be some behaviours around other women's partners that I'm not comfortable with with some (not all) of the women I've been friends with. For the first time since my early 20s, I'm in a relationship (I'll be 50 this year). We've been together for three years. Since we've been together, I've had to let friendships drift or outright cut them off because of the fact they have flirted with my partner repeatedly and consistently. Not once or twice and not in a jokey friendly way but in a making sexualised conversation way. Or stroking his arm, thigh, throwing head back and laughing at his jokes, coy head tilting, standing between me and him with their back to me when he and I are having a conversation kind of way.

I would never behave like that towards someone else's husband or boyfriend but I'm not sure if that is black and white thinking? Is that just what it's like? Do other people.just do this or have this in their friendships?

I was thinking abut it last night because I remembered a recent incident where we were out in a group and one of the women who I'd noticed 'flirting' with my partner (she's married) had singled him out and moved him conversationally rather than physically, away from the group (so I could still hear) and was talking to him repeatedly about being naked. She pulled put her phone at one point and he said "I don't want to see!" She laughed, tapped him on the arm and said "Well, I'm not going to show you that!" But even that was said 'flirtily'. He doesn't flirt back or try to talk to her one on one but she always does it to him.

This has happened in nearly all of the friendships I've had in recent years.

Am I overthinking or expecting too much? Is this just what adult friendships/relationships are like?

I'm on the verge of fading out a current close friend because of similar but I think for it to have happened so often, maybe the problem is me? The women who haven't flirted with my partner are the ones who've let the friendship slide from their end (not responding to messages or repeatedly cancelling meet ups). It feels like people just don't like me and my partner is maybe the only reason the ones who stick around do.

I don't think any of these women are actually interested in my partner. It's just that it's a pattern of behaviour/ model of friendly behaviour I've noticed in some of friends but it makes me withdraw from friends when it happens and I'm not sure if I'm being particularly fussy about this.

People often say on here that if you're having problems with everyone, the problem must be you. Is it?

No, of course it’s not ‘what friendships are like’. Why on earth would you think it was? Or that you’re unduly ‘fussy’ not to like it?

When you say that flirting with your partner has happened in ‘nearly all’ of your friendships, how many are we talking? Three? Ten?

Yes, I would say that if it’s a pattern of behaviour, the sole common denominator is either you or your partner.

HamSpray

I think I've explained why I asked. I don't have much experience of friendships or relationships and so haven't had much experience of seeing how people interact in these relationships.

Currently, I have two female friends I've socialised with with my partner. One of them does it. In my previous mixed friendship group which included four women, one did it. But she's the only one I'd have considered to be my actual friend though. Eg she was the only one I spoke to outside of the group or met up with one to one. We met theough a hobby. In a previous friendship group of three women, one did it. don't have any long standing friendships.

So not many numbers wise but a significant proportion % wise.

OP, I’m sorry I don’t know what to say about the flirting, I would find it disrespectful and be put off those friends.

Just wanted to send solidarity re: you explanation of your history so much of what you said resonated but you put it so much better.

it doesn’t sound like there is anything “wrong” or unlikeable about you by the way.

I can hear him talking too. The friend who was talking about being naked was telling him about a holiday where she'd been to a nudist beach and it's a bit hard to shut down a conversation where someone is telling you about their holiday. But she just kept saying "and I was naked." "And there I was standing there completely naked" "there were all these naked women and so I just thought, fuck it, I'll get naked too" type of thing. He doesn't engage with the flirting ever. I'd speak to him if he did.

It seems to be the women in a group who I'd consider to be my actual/personal friends who do it. Not the others.

So it must be me. What can I do differently? I haven't seen this side of them until we've been close enough to be friends.

If things are happening as you describe, then of course it’s not ok.

but I want you to think about the possibility that you are misreading this. I say this because while it’s not that unusual to meet a woman who flirts with other people’s partners, it seems unlikely that about 70% - 80% of women you meet are doing this.

It sounds maybe like you are struggling with reading interactions.
Lots of people are ‘flirty’ in their interactions, but doesn’t mean they are after everyone.

No definitely not the norm. I don’t have any friends who would do that and never have. Is it a ‘type’ of woman who would do this? Are these women from the same background/do the same type of job? Trying to work it out as it doesn’t happen in my circles and many of them are people who like drinking and socialising.

I’d also say that having a laugh about a nudist beach is not sexually suggestive. ‘talking about being naked’ sounded inappropriate, but I’ve got a male friend ( not close friends) whose openly chatted about growing up in a family of nudists. He’s not hitting on anyone.

also conversations that break off from main group are common when there are more than 3 people in a group. It doesn’t mean people are pulling away from group.

OP - I suspect I have mild AuDHD and struggle with reading the room. I often feel excluded from conversations in groups but know I’m well liked, so it’s possibly me being paranoid

I'd say it's probably 25-30% of the women I meet or know socially but a high % of the women I'd actually consider to he friends - so the people I'd share details of my life etc with.

Even then, I'm very careful about what I share. Nothing that would make me particulalrly vulnerable, although I have told those women about my diagnoses thinking about it because our friendships had got to that point or because they'd asked me straight out. In fact, two definitely asked straight out because they'd realised.

You're not misreading it, the issue is not you. ND people see things neurotypical people don't, you're seeing what they can't see. I had a friend who would do this. I was so naive and afraid of confrontation that I let her get away with murder for decades as my 'friend'. Flirting with partners in the way you describe, crossing my boundaries, criticising my appearance, you name it. In the end I had to break contact but it took a long time for me to see it wasn't acceptable.

I've learned a lot of neurotypical women are two faced or lie a lot. Many cheat on their partners (in my experience) or want to and the majority are happy to stay in unfulfilling relationships (friendships or marriages) rather than being alone. They can't be true to themselves and there seems to be an unwritten social contract of bitching about one friend to another but everyone ignored it.

I can't understand it either. It's mind boggling. The best remedy is forging friendships with fellow autistics.

I’d also say that having a laugh about a nudist beach is not sexually suggestive. ‘talking about being naked’ sounded inappropriate, but I’ve got a male friend ( not close friends) whose openly chatted about growing up in a family of nudists. He’s not hitting on anyone.

I'd agree. But it's the fact she kept talking about being naked herself. Like she was inviting/encouraging him to think about her naked. Laughing about a nudist beach wouldn’t have been an issue. And also the fact, she'd addressed him directly and more quietly and moved the conversation away from the group. It wasn't a "hey everyone a funny thing happened on holiday" conversation.

Until then, we'd been talking together. There were on 5 or 6 of us so not a big group. She was the only one who took the conversation away from the group and only with him.

What a silly post. You’re making manifestly untrue hostile generalisations about neurotypical people based on your own people-pleasing failure to interrogate the behaviour of your supposed friend (a sample size of one), and your weird idea that the neurodivergent are some kind of saints of straight talking, truth-seeing and sexual fidelity.

Are you always with friends when you’re with your partner?

It is unusual and honestly I haven’t come across it before, which isn’t intended to sound as if I don’t believe you. But I think it is possible some misinterpretation is happening.

I think much of the things you listed are normal social interactions and banter, not flirting. And happen all of the time at dinner parties. Laughing at jokes, head tilting, jokes about nudist beaches is not flirting. Having their back to you was probably not deliberate at all.

You sound very possessive and insecure op. Why do you think your friends all fancy your dp? I would bet my house on that fact they don’t, and are just being sociable.

You are about to lose all of your friends again, because you are misreading their intentions.

Just to give another perspective.. my husband and I are casual friends with another couple. We sometimes have dinner together at their place as they like to cook and host.

The husband is quite flirty with me in a 'aren't I charming' kind of way and the wife is similar with my husband.

They're both lovely, warm and generous people and would not Cross a line.

It's more about them than us iyswim.

The nudist beach is not great as an example it’s the sort of chat that wouldn’t especially mean it was flirting to me. When it comes to outright flirting there has been a clear cut incidence of flirting with my DH. My evil sister, my sister is a complete, well add a really bad word here who has had affairs with multiple married men. Not my imagination as he told me some stuff, was worried about it and then she followed it up with a message. So it was there in black and white.

It is not the norm at all. I’m wondering if very few of them were flirting. ASD means many people struggle to understand social cue’s which is why they struggle so much with relationships. Sorry it’s probably not what you want to read. I used to be responsible for students with ASD and almost all struggled with fitting in because of social stress, misreading social cues being a big one. I am sorry you had an awful childhood and friend, it will not have helped but some of these students had lovely supportive parents and still had those issues.

I think there might be something getting lost in translation, are other male partners there when this is happening, how are they treated? Do you have friendships where you see people without him?

If he's the only bloke and a bit out of place, some people will appear to target him, but it's coming from trying to include him. It also probably takes more on your part to be intimate physically or jokingly with someone, so you are assuming a bigger effort and deliberate behaviour when to them it comes naturally.

Its possible you attract strong characters (my ASD DD does as she just kind of bobs along with them) but it would be a shame to lose friendships if it's a misunderstanding. Have you spoken to DP about it, is he uncomfortable?

@HamSpray in my experience (with a sample size of many more than one) they are.

Autistic women are pattern spotters. I've observed this over almost fifty years. It's not a passing comment, it's a lifetime of experience. Most neurotypical can't see the wood for the trees.

I wouldn't dream of talking about myself naked to a friends husband, nudist beach or not. It's suggestive. I'm surprised anyone thinks otherwise. Your DH must have felt uncomfortable, as I would if a friends husband kept harping on about how naked he was on his nudist holiday.

This sounds like such a strange situation to be in. I’d be so annoyed if I were you. Have you ever considered confronting any of the women while they are doing this? For example, physically moving between the “naked” woman and your partner and saying “what a bizarre story to share. My James looks quite uncomfortable” with a good natured laugh that doesn’t reach your eyes. Then both turn away from her to make it clear the conversation is over. She’d definitely get the message and hopefully feel embarrassed for her behaviour.

I don’t think it’s helpful to consider ND as some kind of superpower.

You don’t see things that others don’t. Lots of people who are NT will, for example, suspect someone is lying- they just don’t call them out on it.

all relationships are nuanced and not black and white. You can dislike aspects of a person’s personality, but still be friends. ( lots of people have friends who are terrible timekeepers, but stay friends because the person shows kindness in other ways - for example!)

so friends sometimes bitch about each other I’m afraid!

if you’re ND, I can guarantee you’ve hurt a friend’s feelings- even if you haven’t meant it. It doesn’t make you a bad person, but likewise your friend doesn’t have to like it.

being likely ND myself, I’m actually really grateful for NT people who see past my quirks and accept them. They are often more tolerant people than I am.

Well either Ops dp is a total mesmerising Adonis ( unlikely) or op is misreading the situation.

You have been v unlucky with your friends. None of my friends flirt with my DP and I don't flirt with theirs, ever. I wouldnt dream of talking about my naked body to them.
As for NT women being cheaters or two faced, that is a unfounded accusation by a PP.l
But these days it seems ok on MN to vilify any section of society you dont belong to.

That’s a nice, generous, open-minded post, though, which would suggest you’re a good person for someone to have in their lives, regardless of ‘quirks’.