Is this just what friendships/people are like?

[FriendshipWoes]

I'll start by saying I'm diagnosed with ASD and ADHD. I also have a background of trauma because I wasn't diagnosed until adulthood and experienced a lot of childhood abuse from my parents, who tried to punish stimming, meltdowns and general quirkiness out of me to make me be like 'other children'. Which, unsurprisingly, failed.

I'm intelligent and well educated so whilst I probably haven't achieved what I could have otherwise, I've managed to create an OK life for myself with an OK standard of living - I have a professional career although I'm not high earning. People don't generally realise I'm ND unless they have it in their family and recognise traits in me.

I know I see things in fairly black and white terms and this is where I'm not sure if my issues are to do with me or perception of things.

There's a lot i find difficult, but I'll stick to just one element.

I don't have many friends. I've always struggled with friendships. The girls at school didn't like me so most of my friends were boys. They didn't expect me to be like them because I was a girl so the differences between us were put down to that rather than just because I wasn't very good at being a girl. The girls preferred each other because they were more similar and I was 'weird'.

None of those friendships with boys were long lasting though because, ultimately, I was a girl and I had a few experiences of realising the boys were only friends with me because they fancied me and I wasn't interested in any of them in that way so it put me off.

I moved away to university at 18 and all I really wanted were some good female friends. I met a woman who was a couple of years older than me. I left university because I couldn't cope and we moved in together. I got a job. Quite quickly, she started to bully me in my eyes. I wasn't really interested in a relationship so was always single. She was looking for a husband so always 'on the pull'.

If a man spoke to me or a man she was interested in asked me out, she would become verbally aggressive, intimidating and sometimes threatened physical harm (she threatened to put cigarettes out in my eyes once because a man she was interested in asked me out). I never dated or flirted with anyone she was interested in for clarity. She spoke badly of me, other women avoided me and the idea that no one liked me was strengthened. I think I must have missed something in the way others perceive me.

By my early 20s, I'd pretty much given up in the idea of having friends because it was too complicated. I started dating a man I'd known from school (one of the boys I'd been friends with). We eventually married and raised two children together for a few years until he met someone he actually had feelings for and left. I wasn't upset. I didn't love him like a spouse and we continued to co-parent well until the youngest went to university. I have very good relationships with my children despite my 'difficulties'.

I spent the next 10+ years single. Focused on raising my children, working and establishing hobbies through which I finally made some good (I thought) female friends.

Every one of those friendships has fallen by the wayside though and now I have very few friends again. I meet people and I know people from work but I'm not able to make those friendships.

What I have found in the last few years when I've made friends with women is that there seems to be some behaviours around other women's partners that I'm not comfortable with with some (not all) of the women I've been friends with. For the first time since my early 20s, I'm in a relationship (I'll be 50 this year). We've been together for three years. Since we've been together, I've had to let friendships drift or outright cut them off because of the fact they have flirted with my partner repeatedly and consistently. Not once or twice and not in a jokey friendly way but in a making sexualised conversation way. Or stroking his arm, thigh, throwing head back and laughing at his jokes, coy head tilting, standing between me and him with their back to me when he and I are having a conversation kind of way.

I would never behave like that towards someone else's husband or boyfriend but I'm not sure if that is black and white thinking? Is that just what it's like? Do other people.just do this or have this in their friendships?

I was thinking abut it last night because I remembered a recent incident where we were out in a group and one of the women who I'd noticed 'flirting' with my partner (she's married) had singled him out and moved him conversationally rather than physically, away from the group (so I could still hear) and was talking to him repeatedly about being naked. She pulled put her phone at one point and he said "I don't want to see!" She laughed, tapped him on the arm and said "Well, I'm not going to show you that!" But even that was said 'flirtily'. He doesn't flirt back or try to talk to her one on one but she always does it to him.

This has happened in nearly all of the friendships I've had in recent years.

Am I overthinking or expecting too much? Is this just what adult friendships/relationships are like?

I'm on the verge of fading out a current close friend because of similar but I think for it to have happened so often, maybe the problem is me? The women who haven't flirted with my partner are the ones who've let the friendship slide from their end (not responding to messages or repeatedly cancelling meet ups). It feels like people just don't like me and my partner is maybe the only reason the ones who stick around do.

I have had a couple of friends in the years who are adamant that everyone is flirting with their husbands when they really aren't. It's quite painful for them and they are misreading friendliness/maybe even slight flirtiness that is just 'normal' in social interactions with something else!

I feel it's likely to be you ...alternatively he is an adonis... you don't say how good looking he is but even with one of our most good looking friends I haven't noticed women throwing themselves at them. But I do think a bit of light flirting/banter is normal. Not sure about the naked thing but maybe that was just one person?

We see the wood, I can assure you, but as @Crateoflemsip said in her post, that doesn’t necessarily mean we confront the people involved with our ‘findings’, or cut someone off because there’s an aspect of their behaviour we find problematic, but they’re still valuable to us as a whole personality.

I can, for instance, think of several occasions when I’ve been around female friends and acquaintances talking at length to men or mixed gatherings about situations in which they were naked without it being in any way flirtatious (the requirement to shower naked before entering pools in Iceland, accidentally happening upon a French nudist beach and deciding to join in etc).

It doesn't sound to me like you're misreading it. This kind of behavior also doesn't sound typical, I don't have any friends that flirt with my husband and I never have...

However I think its likely that you are somehow drawn to these women initially, perhaps they're particularly friendly or something? You seem to have had a lot of these types in your social circle and I'd try to tease out why that is. You're choosing these people for some reason.

I'd just be a bit on guard due to you saying how many times you've thought women were flirting with your husband...
To me this seems extremely unlikely. Is your husband ridiculously attractive or have you just been very unlucky with the women you've met? Neither seems realistic.
I think my DH is pretty hot and I've loads of female friends and I don't think ay of them have offended me by flirting with him..
I think it's possibly that you might be misinterpreting normal friendliness or how tactile people may be when they've been drinking?
If you say you do not believe the women are actually interested in your husband is do not understand this?
I may be wrong because I wasn't there obviously, I haven't seen the behaviour, but something isn't adding up. If it were one or two particular women who were just shit disrespectful people then I'd totally get it.... but all the women you've tried to make friends with?? That is seeming like it's perhaps your boundaries are too high or you are misinterpreting the situation.
Obviously you have to go with how you feel.. again, I wasn't there and didn't see all this interaction so I can't say for sure.. but the fact that you are posting indicates you think it might be a issue with your own perception.
I am also autistic by the way. I think that I've had to be quite relaxed regarding not really understanding some people's social behaviour. Personally I find it easier to remind myself to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.
Here I would say that if you took a step back and looked at the bigger picture you would find that despite some of these women acting in ways you personally wouldn't.. you do know they aren't interested in your husband and he isn't interested in them. So really there's no issue to upset yourself about. These women may think they are being fun, affectionate, amusing etc.. and it's just not translating to you like that.
I think another issue can be expectation when you can slip into black and white thinking. You are looking for signs someone is good or bad. You are looking for signs someone can be trusted or they are going to betray you.
In reality women are complex. They keep their cards closer to their chests than men. (Obviously that's a generalisation, not all women and men are like this) they can be more difficult to read
And end of the day no human being is 100% good or bad, trustworthy or not trustworthy. People all have flaws. They all have parts of themselves you don't like or can't understand.
In order to maintain friendships a lot of black and white thinking has to be let go of. Otherwise you will constantly feel hurt by people not acting how you expected or wanted.
If you genuinely want friendships then you need to approach them with good faith.
Assume the best until proven without a doubt wrong.
Trust until they break your trust.
It seems to me like you are approaching friendships with women from an initial place of mistrust. Looking for signs they dislike you from the outset.
In doing this you are pushing them away.
It's understandable that you want to protect yourself. Obviously you've been caused a lot of pain throughout childhood by having girls think you are wierd.
And you try and protect yourself by assuming that's what adult women think and being hyper vigilant for it.
But the reality is that you can't make friends when viewing the world like that.
You have to allow yourself to be open and positive and expect people to like you. You have to assume the best intentions from people. You have to interpret the things they do with kindness.
That can be hard and sometimes people do end up betraying you anyway, but it is worth it

That is what I've wondered tbh.

I'm NT and would say I have a wide circle of friends (not trying to show off here, I know it is much easier for me to make friends than my ND daughter for example) I would say I have approximately 50 female friends that I spend time with regularly throughout the year. I have never seen a single friend of mine flirt with either my partner or any of the other women's partners so it does seem significant that this has happened to you with three of your friends from a group 10 (if I counted correctly). People usually pick friends with certain traits, I tend to go for people with a dry sense of humour and strong feminist values for example. My ND daughter seems to pick friends that are either ND like her or insecure/needy (she likes rescuing people) but obviously I can't draw a conclusion from a sample of just her. However I wonder if you are picking friends with a certain trait or possibly (because of your history of feeling rejected) accepting anyone who shows an interest in friendship (again if this sounds rude, it's not meant to be it's just me exploring a theory and prepared to accept I'm wrong). TLDR: are the people you are picking as friends not "girls girls", i.e. women who always put their female friends before their desire for male attention.

I'm usually drawn to people who I later discover are also ND or quite strong characters. I don't mean that in a bad way just people who are more outgoing. I find conversation difficult so people who are happy to do a lot of the talking which gives me something to bounce off are easier than quiet people when conversation can just dry up because I'm a bit rubbish at it.

I tend to become like the people I'm with so quiet, I'm quiet. Louder, I'm louder. Serious, I'm serious. It's not very often I feel I've really gelled with someone though where conversation is easy. And it seems to be the times I felt like I've gelled with someone that it happens. Which is quite hard.

Thank you. This makes sense and I understand what you're saying.

I do think I approach friendships from a place of mistrust.

In one case, I thought I might have misread it and really trusted this woman so I spoke with her about it. Probably naively in hindsight but I was still quite new to having friends really.

I won't go into details but she basically confirmed that she was flirting with him and wasn't going to stop.

Oh OP it does sound hard, it not easy to keep putting yourself back out there. If you can give it another try, as well as picking people who are outgoing and good conversationalists you could check out their values too?
I was once getting friendly with a very outgoing woman and she told me about an anecdote that revealed she was more interested in protecting the feelings of her friend's husband than her friend and I decided at that point we could not be friends. Being NT I faded her out slowly rather than being direct about it to avoid alienating the other women in her group. Could you fade out these "friends" now you've seen their values don't align with yours and try to build on things with the other women in the groups?

I find that when women flirt with a spoken-for man it's because they want to feel better than his girlfriend/wife to boost their ego.
So you've probably accidentally made friends with insecure types.

But I do think a bit of light flirting/banter is normal.

Even with friends' partners?

This is the bit I'm asking about really. Because I've sometimes wondered if I'd speak to their husbands or behave around their husbands in that way and I really wouldn't. But perhaps that's just me.

I’ve met a few people who declare they flirt with everyone.

Perhaps all women groups would suit you better. I am not being snide. They are better for making friends.

It's interesting that you've said you have inclined towards befriending "outgoing" types. I'm wondering if they are often also self centred types who like to put you in an "audience" role while they play the main character. (I'm definitely not dating all outgoing people are selfish and vain, just that this might be the pattern here.)

I was taken by the utter fury of your uni friend when a man she liked showed an interest in you - you were supposed to watch and admire her winning the man, don't you know? And similar friends flirting with your husband. It sounds like a way of reminding you of the place in the pecking order. Sort of "I could have any man i want, I could even tempt yours, I'm not actually interested but I want you to know".

Maybe I'm assuming too much because I house shared with a girl at Uni who was Just. Like. That. She was very pretty and outgoing and attracted a lot of male attention. But if someone else in the house got a boyfriend she would be obviously pissed off, as if she was annoyed that they hadn't noticed her first, being the superior female and all that. And yes she did flirt and sometimes snog her friends boyfriends. She wasn't actually interested in them, she just wanted to keep everyone aware of her desirability status.

Well one person's friendliness is another's flirting though it's a difficult one... I work with men all day long and have done for 20 plus years, so I am very confident/bantery quite quickly and it can look like flirting but that's just how I am with everyone.

I am also from a different culture which is way more tactile and so hugging, touching, putting your hand on someone when talking is way more the norm.

People often say on here that if you're having problems with everyone, the problem must be you. Is it?

No. I always think some people are incredibly unlucky that they ended up in the wrong crowd. Sorry op, you’ve just been unlucky. Hugs x