Help me make sense of this petty arguement

[Yingyangwoo]

DH and I are having a bit of a difficult time just now. One of the things he complains about it how “everyday conversation” turns into something frosty/defensive/challenging.

The example he gave today (is very petty, I warn you) I was folding clothes. He came in to help and said that the coat hangers (which I recently purchased) are too big and stretch the children’s clothes. I replied with “only if you force them in through the neck”, he said no as they’re too broad and leave the arms “weird” and that was the end of the conversation.

Talking about this today, he said he felt like I took the comment personally and reacted. I said that putting the clothes away is very much my role and it felt like he was coming in with an “I know best” kind of attitude.

i know this is all very pathetic, but we have some big issues at the moment and this kind of daily petty thing is happening ALL THE TIME. Help me make sense of it?

To clarify, DH says this kind of interaction creates a sense of hostility and then he feels like he doesn’t want to talk around me in case I react defensively

I think my response would have been " it doesn't really matter though, does it"

He's being picky about an unimportant thing, and doesn't like you countering with something (anything). I suspect it's not really about hangers though.

I think he was actually being critical of you (in a very minor way) and subconsciously was expecting you to be pissed off.

I wonder if he's getting easily annoyed/critical off you/thinking you're not doing things the 'right way'/not as good as he would.
If this is the way his mind is working, he's maybe expecting a reaction when he expresses it. He subconsciously knows he's being a dick and ultra critical

He's then hyper sensitive to your reaction and sees one even when there isn't.

Basically he knows he should be told to fuck off or to take more responsibility for the things he criticises

And I speak from experience....

One of the biggest arguments I had with my now exH was about the potato masher being put away in the 'wrong' drawer in the kitchen. I'd things between us had been good, neither us would've given a shit which drawer it was out in.

Little did I know at the time he was 6 months into a year long affair that he was having. He was no longer in love with me and it later came out that all he felt towards me in the end was utter contempt for trivial things and I was subconsciously picking up on this.

I'm not suggesting for a minute that your DH is having an affair. But you say yourself it's been a rough patch. As PP said "it's not about the hangers"

I wonder if he's getting easily annoyed/critical off you/thinking you're not doing things the 'right way'/not as good as he would.

See, this is my thinking. I wasn’t overly aware of it being a defensive response at the time, but thinking about it now this is what I feel it might come down to. He never puts the clothes away, it’s very much one of my jobs, on this occasion he came to help probably following discussions about splitting household tasks. I feel like I often get negative/critical comments whenever it’s about something that I’m doing/not doing, even if it’s not about me directly. Does that make sense?

It’s definitely not about the hangers!

I was folding clothes. He came in to help and said that the coat hangers (which I recently purchased) are too big and stretch the children’s clothes. I replied with “only if you force them in through the neck”, he said no as they’re too broad and leave the arms “weird” and that was the end of the conversation.
Talking about this today, he said he felt like I took the comment personally and reacted. I said that putting the clothes away is very much my role and it felt like he was coming in with an “I know best” kind of attitude.

Objectively this is what it looks like to me on paper (excluding tone of delivery):

1. He opens with a criticism of you - you bought incorrect hangers which stretch the clothes.
2. You reply with a total defence of the criticism that is accurate but also critical of him - there is nothing wrong with the hangers; its only if you try to put them in from the neck rather than underneath that this is an issue. The criticism is that he is incorrectly going through the neck.
3. He then later criticises you more by saying you were sensitive, took it personally and had a I know best attitude.

Looking at it on paper, if you are scoring it for negativitiy, it's
Him: +1 first criticism; +1 second criticism =+ 2
You: +1 critiism of him = +1. I'd score this actually 0.5 to reflect the fact that it was only because you were responding to him.

So overall, he's the 'worse' one here. A better response to your comment would be 'Oh ok. sorry I see what you mean, I've been doing it wrong'. but no you are in the wrong.

It doesn't speak of a good attitude from him.

That said, all of this in 'marking' terms can be scaled up or down depending on tone and manner of delivery. You can say 'I really love you' to someone in a very hostile and aggressive way dripping with sarcasm.

So what do you say about his tone to you in respect of both of his comments and yours to him.

Without that info, like I said, it looks on paper he's the fault picker, then he is defensive when its pointed out if he used the hangers a different way it wouldn't be a problem. It doesn't look like you are this main problem here to me.

What do you say about tone?

@astl I’m sorry that happened with your exH.

It definitely seems to be a symptom of something underlying, but I don’t think DH is having an affair in my case.

It might help to take a step back and listen to the way you talk to him. Don't change anything, just see if he has a point.

If you're stuck in a rut communication wise, it helps to change how you communicate. Try JADE, don't justify, argue, defend or explain. It helps avoid pointless arguments with people who are being difficult.

If he's needlessly getting at you, he's resentful. A conversation where you hash out what's really going on might help.

@SirQuintusAurelius I actually love how you’ve approached this, it made me chuckle as point-scoring is totally not my thing but feels like how we’re living at the moment. Tone-wise I think he generally speaks very matter-of-factly, so it’s like a statement rather than a general moan about the hangers. I don’t know if that makes sense, but ime most of the time when someone finds an item frustrating, it usually comes with something like “these hangers are useless!”. I don’t think I’m explaining myself well.

The subsequent conversation is definitely more an attack on me. It is me that is hyper-sensitive and defensive, creating a horrible atmosphere where he doesn’t feel comfortable to talk to me in case I react.

To be fair to him, I probably am quite reactive. I’m very insecure in our relationship at the moment and am generally very stressed, overwhelmed and struggling with low mood. I am having treatment for this.

@username299 as for him feeling resentful, I suspect he does have some resentment but I don’t really know what he would be resentful of or why I think that.

It might help to take a step back and listen to the way you talk to him. Don't change anything, just see if he has a point.

On this point, I think I do feel quite irritated sometimes when it feels like he is being critical. I definitely need to observe my own behaviour and try to not be defensive.

It is me that is hyper-sensitive and defensive, creating a horrible atmosphere where he doesn’t feel comfortable to talk to me in case I react.
To be fair to him, I probably am quite reactive. I’m very insecure in our relationship at the moment and am generally very stressed, overwhelmed and struggling with low mood. I am having treatment for this.

Are you sure you are assessing this objectively? Do you have friends who see any of this or who know him and you talk to about it? What do they say?

The reason I say that is whilst it is always possible to be hyper sensitive and defensive, IME often (not always but often) that is another way of saying I am upset and defensive because I am being undermined and attacked. In other words, it's perfectly normal to be hurt and sensitive because someone who you expect to love you and be on your side, is now wounding you.

Are you sure you aren't stressed, overwhelmed and insecure because of stuff he is saying to you undermining your self-confidence? or at least contributing to it?

Food for thought, @SirQuintusAurelius, thank you.

We rarely see other people together any more. There is one mutual friend I have spoken to (of course only my side of the story) and she has said that he is treating me very badly and I can’t see it. I don’t really believe this is true though, I think he’s a good person.

So thinking about this, I am remembering many situations where my husband has been critical and undermining my self-confidence. For example, we went shopping to buy me some clothes as my birthday present. The whole day he rejected every single item I selected, without really giving good reasons why. Not only that but he got progressively more annoyed at me for continuing to pick out clothes that I like and he doesn’t, but not once did he point out something that he thought would look nice on me. We left without buying anything.

OP

Now you've written that re the shopping trip you still think he is a good person?. Oh he is likely to be a good person to outsiders but he's not at all good to you. he is your typical common and garden abuser. Such men too hate women, ALL of them.

Abuse is about power and control and he wants absolute over you here.
Abuse is not just physical in nature. Abuse also creeps up on people unawares and over time. They certainly do not go around with the word abuser written on their forehead and these types exist in every country in the world.

OP

re your comment
"To be fair to him, I probably am quite reactive. I’m very insecure in our relationship at the moment and am generally very stressed, overwhelmed and struggling with low mood. I am having treatment for this".

No it's not you, it's him. He has caused you to become like this over time; it's all down to him doing this to you. He will further cause you to become a shadow of your former self.

And what treatment may I ask are you having?. What you need now is to be apart from him now.

I have felt before that he’s been a bit controlling over my social life etc, but mostly now I don’t really see ‘abuse’.

I am taking medication and waiting for appointments with secondary services.

Why do you think he's a good person, and why does she think he isn't?

Look up emotional abuse OP. Relate, Womens Aid, other charity websites such as Age Concern or even local council or government websites will have something listed. Then sit and think. Does he constantly belittle you so you always feel on edge?

He’s the reason you are on medication and it’s more than likely you do not need this at all.

Whst appointments are you waiting for?. If it’s mediation or joint counselling do not do this with him. You are not safe enough and it’s never recommended where there is abuse of any type within the relationship.

Indeed why do you think he is a good person whereas your friend does not?

I really don’t think our relationship is abusive. I’ve read up about emotional abuse but it doesn’t ring true.

Generally he’s a good man. He works hard to provide for his family, he does the majority of the food shopping and cooking. He is involved with the kids and generally a good dad, although he does get frustrated quite quickly and shout at them.

We both acknowledge that he has some mental health issues but he has not done anything to address this.

My friend is angry with him as recently I was very unwell and needed a lot of support in daily life, and managing with the children etc, but this is when he decided he “needed space” and left the family home overnight. But this decision was made between us following us talking about our marriage and whether or not to separate

I don’t want my children to go through a family breakup when there’s not really a “good reason”. But we are both not happy and don’t get any joy in the relationship, and I don’t know how we’d get that back.

I have read something on another thread recently by another poster so I can’t take the credit but it went something along the lines of this. When we feel off, when we feel a little crazy it’s often because someone is creating a crazy making situation. We don’t sense it, we look within, we are completely knocked off course. He he doing crazy making behaviour and you are acting accordingly but blaming the wrong person. It’s him, he’s under mining your self esteem very insidiously and very cunningly. You point the finger at him and he points several more back at you. You are right to go on the defensive and he is provoking this intentionally and then shaming and blaming you for a perfectly normal reaction.

He is involved with the kids and generally a good dad, although he does get frustrated quite quickly and shout at them.
That is NOT being a good parent. Getting angry and taking it out on vulnerable people/animals is a sign of emotional abuse. Anger management courses are a "thing" because of how this anger affects others around them. It WILL be harming the children.

recently I was very unwell and needed a lot of support in daily life, and managing with the children etc, but this is when he decided he “needed space” and left the family home overnight.
That was plain nasty of him. Really, really nasty. He was telling you in no uncertain terms that you and/or the children are not important enough for him to look after you. Why do you think both you and he believe you are not worthy of kindness or support when you are ill? Is he not a partner in every sense of the word?

I don’t want my children to go through a family breakup when there’s not really a “good reason”.
He gets angry and shouts at them. That is the "good reason". The fact he says you and them are not important enough to care about when it matters That is another "good reason".

I also suspect the same as pp. Your health conditions will improve once you are away from him permanently.

Why do you think both you and he believe you are not worthy of kindness or support when you are ill?

I don’t know, I hadn’t thought of this

So he's nice except when he's controlling your friendships, critcising what you buy, shouting at the kids, leaving when you're unwell, has MH that he won't get help for... What is your definition of abuse? Why is your bar for his behaviour so low?

When you put it all together like that it sounds really awful… maybe I need to LTB.

fml