Should I give him a deal breaker?

[Getkettleon]

DH and I are currently on a trial separation. There are many issues in our marriage, but one of my concerns has been his moods and his temper, which has been impacting our small DC.
For context, he said he would get anger management a while back but never did. Months went by and his moods got worse.
Finally I spoke to him again and he admitted he thinks he is depressed. Made an appointment to see the GP, which is an absolutely massive deal for him - to discuss mental health and ask for medication for his mood.

He got fobbed off with some lifestyle advice - none of which he has been able to or willing to do for years, quite frankly. Shortly after, he lost his temper yet again, shouted at the kids for next to no reason which led to me sending him packing. We're having a few weeks apart now.

He's promised to use this time to better himself, has seen friends, joined a gym, done some online CBT courses. Promised to work on his anger, and go back to the GP if things don't improve. For me, this is not a quick fix and I just don't think this short spurt of action is going to help, it takes a lot of time to develop coping strategies and actually implement anger management.

Would it be unreasonable to tell him that I want him medicated to even consider taking him back? Knowing him, I don't think the things he's doing are a long term solution, he's been so bad he's put his children and his marriage at risk and not even been able to see it, let alone talk about it, until I've ended it. Without medication I don't think he stands a chance and surely it makes sense to take as much help as possible. If he feels better he can stop them. I want it to take the edge off his anger and emotions while he deals with the strategies for longer term gain.

I'm thinking about telling him this is a deal breaker. We separate if he doesn't try antidepressants. Does this seem reasonable?

Genuinely don't know.

Yes it is unreasonable to make a relationship dependent on medication.

No that’s not reasonable at all. But I think it’s past deal breakers. Concede defeat and get a divorce.

I don't actually blame you but I think this is a istake. I'm a big fan of medication and I think it could be helpful for him, but I don't see that this is going to solve the problem here which really requires him to do the work - and that includes possibly taking medication.

Anger issues are not going to be solved with medication either so that's something to bear in mind.

I'd say that a better ultimatum is that he has to take a holistic approach. He needs therapy and if anger is an issue, anger management. And you. need a longer time to work on this before he comes home and/or have a lot more in place before he comes home. Going to the gym and seeing friends is not going to solve this problem,

I'm not sure I see the point. He is losing his temper and has mood swings. Does he do anything around the house or is he equally contemptuous?

What medication is there for anger issues? If you mean antidepressants then don't even go there. Have you asked him why he's depressed/thinks that he is?

I wouldn't be making an ultimatum based on medication. Golden rule for relationships is to take someone as they are or not at all - trying to change someone is a recipe for unhappiness and failure.

You can't demand another adult goes on medication. However, that's not really what you're asking for is it. What you're after is a demonstration of his commitment to change.

Unfortunately, you can't have that. His behaviour over an extended period of time is the only way to check that.

So really, the question is whether both of you want to continue a trial separation for a long-term period until you can see change in action (assuming he's genuinely trying) or whether you call it quits.

If he's genuine, he'd still go ahead with the hard self reflection and change even if you split up properly. If he's genuine didn't, you'd know you'd made the right call

I spoke to a friend who has taken them before (antidepressants) and she said it helped to dampen down extreme emotions - anger, irritation, frustration , anxiety - so she just didn't get worked up about things, and it gave her a breather while she had talking therapy to resolve the actual issues. She came off the medication later and said this helped a lot. This is the premise that I'm basing this on - obviously this is just anecdotal for one person but I do know other people who have said similar.

I've been with DH over 10 years and he wasn't always like this, it's got significantly worse over a period of months and he has admitted he is depressed. I'm not trying to "change him". I'm trying to optimise his chances of getting better and saving his marriage, prevent our family from splitting up - though I will do this if necessary. He's already said he doesn't feel that comfortable with talking therapy/ counselling because he doesn't find talking to strangers about it helpful so medication is another route than can help. He's got access to CBT which he's willing to do.

I absolutely don't think it will solve the problem, but I think he needs it in addition to all the other things to give him the best chance, I don't think he's able to do this without the extra help.
And I do want to save our marriage!

Tbh he may decide he needs them anyway, but I can see that he'll feel a bit better after a couple of weeks and say he's feeling better so doesn't need anything, when it's far from reality and I then worry that he will come back, and the anger issues won't change. I don't want to risk any further issues when he comes home but hasn't started any therapy etc yet. Obviously the waiting lists are months and months and months. In the meantime I can't have him being around me and the kids if there's any risk of him losing his temper again like he has done.

Him living separately for now is not sustainable long term - we would have to sell up. We can afford to live separately for more than a few weeks at best.

I think he's just bad tempered and angry with it.

To be honest, the only deal-breaker that stands the remotest chance of working is to tell him that if he ever does that to you or the children again, then it is the absolute end. Divorce.

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve. You say you can't afford to live separately for more than a few weeks. Medication can take weeks to kick in and can take a while to find the right medication and dose.

He can get private therapy through BACP and you say he can access CBT online. He can also do an anger management course.

He won't have had any time to change in a few weeks and if you take him back he will lose his temper again.

I'm not sure it's feasible to have medication as a foundation for restarting a relationship (it didn't work for Merope Gaunt). Either he can address the problems via other means and prove he will stick to it, or you'll probably need to go your separate ways.

He's already said he doesn't feel that comfortable with talking therapy/ counselling because he doesn't find talking to strangers about it helpful so medication is another route than can help. He's got access to CBT which he's willing to do.

But he doesn't want medication. And he's doing online CBT? Honestly, he's doing the bare minimum here and I think you're making a mistake if you think he's really committed to change.

I hope I've already made that pretty clear to him. And maybe that will be the motivation for him to decide to give himself the best chance, and he can decide if medication is a part of that.
Maybe I should just divorce him anyway.
It's good to get other perspectives and sound it out a bit.

Obviously it's not the only issue in our marriage and I'm sure there are things we can both do to ease the tension, there are probably lots of things I do that trigger him too so I'm not saying it's 100% a him problem. But the immediate issue right now was how he's dealing with his frustrations, and it's currently not an acceptable way. So I'm not sure what the answer is, as like PP'S have said it isn't a quick fix and will take time and work.

if you are saying that his anger is a symptom of depression and is not who he has been before being depressed, then him refusing to/ being hesitant about taking the antidepressants might also be a symptom, too.
Who does his anger impact most on?
And are you not a person who displays any anger?
If it impacts on the children most, perhaps you could point him to some kind of parenting intervention, in order that he understands how to be a better parent.
It may be that once he is on anti-ds he is MORE difficult to live with or the same, so I think a slightly more holistic approach might be better than an ultimatum.

there are probably lots of things I do that trigger him too so I'm not saying it's 100% a him problem.

I'm actually starting to get worried now. This is a massive red flag. How on earth is it YOUR fault that he gets so angry that you have had to ask him to leave.

No, he did want it. He went to the GP to ask for medication - but they talked him out of it and told him to make some lifestyle changes instead as he didn't sound that bad. They literally told him to exercise, "make time" to connect with his wife, see friends and gave him a leaflet for talking therapy. They clearly didn't spend a lot of time discussing it or checking he was totally happy with this. But obviously coming from the GP, he's taken their word for it. I can see it's much more serious than that.

It is unreasonable to demand somebody takes medication or undergoes any medical intervention.

The furthest you can reasonably go is to ASK (not demand) that he enrolls on an anger management course and considers seeing his GP again. If he doesn’t do as you ask, you can make the separation permanent.

I have never known anyone go to the GP with depression and come away empty handed. I would assume that if the GP was unwilling to prescribe them, depression may not be the cause. You can be unhappy, angry, frustrated, discontented etc without being depressed. That said, it is worth getting a second opinion.

He needs therapy. He won’t be able to change his patterns of thinking/behaving on his own, and medication won’t solve the problem, either.

Even if this were a good solution, and I’m not convinced, surely it’s up to the GP or a specialist, whether or not they think medication is appropriate? You said he went to the GP, who didn’t prescribe anything. I don’t think he can just go in and demand to be medicated, so a bit unfair to make that the deal breaker. It’s not unreasonable to not want to get back together with him, with things as they are, though.

So what happens when he has outbursts of anger at work? With his boss? With his parents? With his friends? Or is the 'uncontrollable anger' only reserved for you and the children? Not so uncontrollable then after all eh?
I understand you want to save your relationship but this is not your problem to resolve, you cannot resolve it, only he can.
Your job, for the sake of your children if not yourself, is to refuse to accept his behaviour. I'd suggest you discuss with him his need to live separately from you and the children until he can prove to you this is no longer an issue. I don't see how he can prove that other than with time. If that means forever then forever. I appreciate that has financial consequences but your children must come first

I get medication won't just fix things. But I'm very much of the thought that if the help is there, why on earth not take it? Why not have all of it?
I personally do think a combination of mood enhancers AND therapy would be optimal, in this situation. But I'm not a doctor or a therapist or a mental health practitioner. And I can also be totally wrong about it all.
In principle I guess it's unreasonable to say he must have them.

It's a bloody miserable time. I just want to have my husband back. He's not the person I married.

This is in interesting perspective and has definitely made me think. But then also I don't think people are ever generally in situations where colleagues or people we rarely see / know wind us up to despair, not like your own family can! so I don't think it's realistic to compare family to work life. Everyone has family that drive them insane from time to time and our own mothers, fathers, siblings always know how to push our buttons. Our children are ND and it can be tricky even for me to stay calm when dealing with them sometimes.

You do have a point though and I take it on board.

What sort of things might I want to suggest is proof that he's resolved or resolving these issues though? Do you have any suggestions?

I'm not afraid of asking for a longer separation to allow more time to make a decision, or to see how he gets on - but it would be a financial and logistical nightmare and would use up precious money if I do then need to use savings to separate permanently, get my own place etc further down the line - which is a real worry.

In my view I don't think it's reasonable to say 'You have to take medication or I'm out', but I do think it's reasonable to say 'We can't go on as we are, these are the boundaries, if they're crossed we're done' and ask that that considers all the options that may help- be that medication, therapy or something else. Medication won't work if he's forced to do it, because the resentment of taking it will outweight the benefits it brings. It has to be his choice. Likewise for therapy- if he goes to it to tick a box for you, it won't work because he'll go, but not be invested in it. It has to be his choice...good luck,it's a shit position to be in but hold your boundaries firmly- if they can't be met now, they won't be in the future and if that's the case it's better to start rebuilding your life now than in 10 yrs time...

Thank you. This is such a helpful comment. It does need to be his choice. Otherwise he's not committed, is he?

No, you aren't a Dr and you don't know if medication would help him. It is not an appropriate thing to insist on imo.
Ongoing anger management seems much more important.