Nine year old daughters behaviour breaking me and the family apart?

[Alotofpink]

I don’t know how to start really but I’m really struggling at the moment and don’t know how to make it better.

Basically daughter is at the beginning of a SEND referral. She can’t take being told to do anything, from turning the light off to getting ready for school, reading etc etc. Complains every time we go out of the house because she wants to be in control of where we go, if it’s not somewhere she wants to go then she will play up. She gives me terrible looks and tells me I’m a terrible mum, Im nothing like all the other mums. Her dad literally can’t take it anymore as she has placed him into an enemy position so literally snarls and eye rolls him. I’m also an enemy and she looks at me with such hate at times but I have to get her ready.

If I’m honest I’m starting to dread our days, dread having to ask her to do anything and often find ways of letting her get her way. I try so hard to feel love and understand that she doesn’t do this on purpose but I’m really struggling with this now. My little girl just has such hate towards me most of the time. The school are trying to work with her around feelings of others etc etc. She just simply says she doesn’t care, I want my way, I don’t see why I can’t have my way when I want.

Anyone have any advice please?

A couple of books that might be helpful for you and her:

• How Do I Feel? by Rebekah Lipp - my DD went through this book with her OT, and spent some time looking at it on her own. It really helped her express what she was feeling. It's a great book because it describes what might be happening in your body while you're feeling certain emotions.
• Can You See Me by Libby Scott and Rebecca Westcott - this book is written from an autistic girl's perspective (Libby wrote it with Rebecca when she was about 11 or 12; Libby is autistic). It's about a girl moving up to high school and having to deal with the massive change that brings. It's really incredibly helpful to read as a parent as well as for the autistic kid because it tells you how certain behaviours feel from their perspective. My DD is a lot like the girl in the book, and I found it eye-opening in certain ways, even though I intellectually understood what was going on for her.

It's a long shot but doing some social story work with her with some visual aids might help.

I know you say she won't listen to you/do things with you, so in your situation I might try doing it with the little one first when your older one is around, and then she can join in or not as she pleases, but she'll hear it going on. My older DC will often 'take over' an activity I put out for the younger one.

Thanks for all the support and book suggestions. I will have a look at them all. I wish I could just take it all away and she will be ok.

OP - I saw a programme a few years ago, I think it was The Doctor Who Doesn’t Do Drugs, a followup programme on children. There was a young girl who was absolutely horrible to everyone. A German lady doctor started a programme of teaching meditation to children who were having problems. Within 2 weeks this girl started helping the other children with meditation and appeared to have a complete personality change. Might this be worth looking into? I think it was a BBC programme.

Ok. This is not because of SEN. This is just being nasty, manipulative and disrespectful. You have to separate out what behaviours they can't help and when they are just taking the utter piss. SEN is not a green light to behave appallingly.

I have 2 kids with autism and if they behaved like this, they wouldn't sit down for a week. They're not stupid. They know the difference between right and wrong. We've taught them what is and isn't ok and if they choose to do wrong, they don't get away with it.

The nasty words, pointing and laughing, deliberately making you feel shit? Punish that and harshly.

Make it clear what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. No negative comments about people's appearance, do not say shut up, it's rude, do not swear, do not call me names. Really spell it out. Then punish with whatever she does care about. There will be something.

Want a sweet or toy when out shopping? No, you were nasty to me earlier so I don't want to buy you anything.

Invited to a class party? No, you're rude to people so you can't go. No one wants to be with people who are nasty to them.

Want to go to the park? Nope, I don't want to take you anywhere because you said mean things to me. Specify what she said that was mean and why it was mean.

You want to watch TV? No, you don't get TV time today because you behaved badly.

Pocket money? No, you've lost that this week because of what you said to X.

She's doesn't get to choose whether to 'do' punishments. They happen no matter what she does. Take it away, unplug it, refuse to give it to her, hold your ground. Never back down. If you've threatened a consequence, follow through, never make empty threats.

My eldest doesn't have an Xbox. He used to scream and shout at it and shove his siblings if they walked across the room in front of it. I told him to stop doing it and he didn't.

I told him if I saw that behaviour again, I would get rid of it. He said Oh whatever! In a rude tone with attitude. So after dinner I put an ad on Facebook for the Xbox and I sold it. He came home from school and it was gone.

I told him he had been warned, kept up the rude behaviour over it so he doesn't get to have it. The tantrum was epic and lost him a weeks pocket money and a trip to the cinema.

He has been saving up pocket money for another one for 2 years now and I've warned him that the first time he slips back into old behaviour with it, its gone. I mean it. I won't have that behaviour in my house.

You have to draw the line, make it clear where it is and enforce it as firmly as necessary.

Any good behaviour gets praised and make it clear what she did well and why.

I was also coming on to suggest this...your DD sounds just like my 8 year old. We're also waiting for ASD assessment. Also see if there is an Autism charity which can provide some advice/support. My DD benefitted from some art Psychotherapy (if you can afford private). She struggles with groups, but is getting on well with martial arts. She has low self esteem but it's helping build this. How on board is your husband for changing his parenting style? We really have to focus on maintaining attachment....she needs lots of praise, cuddles etc. We also have another child so I know how challenging it is

“Her dad literally can’t take it anymore as she has placed him into an enemy position so literally snarls and eye rolls him. I’m also an enemy and she looks at me with such hate at times but I have to get her ready.”

OP, you have my sympathy. I have been in a similar position, still kind of am, and if I’d had the support of the child’s father, it would have made a big difference. I ended up facing it all alone, or trying to, and it did break me, I’m afraid.

So, kindly and with concern, what is the situation with her father - has he just opted out? Could he be ND too? I think that was part of the issue in my own situation.

Yes ND and has no tools to deal with it.

My take when similar happens is that making the situation about my feelings actively aggravates it. Hence why I suggested a simple 'That's not ok'. If I had to guess, I'd say they're already overwhelmed with their own feelings and can't cope with thinking about someone else's in that moment.

That’s tough. Do you yourself have support? You can’t deal with this alone.

Unfortunately, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about with regard to this child.

The ‘punishment’ approach often makes things worse with things like pda.

SN parents are often blamed for the situation too, that’s just typical.

So the child can just punch people in the face and nothing happens?

Nope. Nobody said that. But if using traditional parenting techniques a) doesn't stop them doing it and b) ruins theirs and their parents' mental health, then what's the point?
I didn't believe this either until I experienced it, by the way.

Tbh OP can you go much more black and white with and say the lip balm isn't yours so you can't take it. I think talking about respecting other people's choices is a bit woolly with a child who clearly doesn't understand how to consider the other person's feelings so would it help her more to be very factual and frame it more in terms of herself - that doesn't belong to you so you cannot take it.
Same with sharing - this worksheet belongs to both of you equally so you must both be able to use it.
And have you firmly explained to her she cannot have everything she wants? It seems obvious but some children really need it in black and white, 'you don' t get to have or do everything you want. Other people will not always do what you want'.

It's about balance, isn't it? The school has to balance the safety and welfare of all the children attending. The OP has to balance the safety and welfare of both her children.

I'm sure the school aren't letting the OP's DD hit other children whenever she feels like it. Instead, she's presumably being isolated when violent to ensure the safety and welfare of the other children. So it's not that she's just 'allowed to punch people in the face', because the school should be doing everything they can to prevent this, even if it's not in the OP's DD's best interests (like isolating her and sitting her separately). Similarly, I'm sure the OP doesn't let her older DD punch or hit the younger one but intervenes as best she can to stop it.

But against this the needs of the OP's DD should be addressed on an ongoing basis with nurturing and effective strategies rather than her continually be isolated or 'warehoused' or demonised for things she isn't necessarily in a good place to control right now.

Just to remind you that you were advising OP to punish when she asked what to do if her DD told her to ‘shut up, she’s a rubbish mum etc’?
Punching hadn’t even been mentioned at that stage.

Obviously other children and adults need to be protected. She can’t go around punching people - again obviously. But traditional parenting strategies do not work for the most part. They make things worse. And there is absolutely no point telling the OP to do things she just can’t do, that escalate and make things worse. And making her feel bad because she’s not ‘stepping up.’

If you have other strategies that might help, preferably based on your experience with ND children, then I’m sure they’d be most welcome.

@Alotofpink

Partly you have to let the small stuff go, the I hate you, rubbish mum etc, ignore then you need non negotiable rules for running the household more generally eg schedule for reading/homework, routine for the mornings, chore expectations (and there should be some) etc.

I've been in your shoes, it hard but giving in to important things is not a good idea but by not getting into pointless arguments over her expressing on your parenting means you aren't drawn into conversations that escalate.

OP I just wanted you to know that you're not alone. Your DD sounds quite a bit like my DS except he doesn't generally lash out at school.

I feel like my family don't really want to get to know my (neuro divergent) DC and don't even like my DC, especially the one that behaves in this way.

He is so sweet, caring, funny and interesting, tried hard at things he loves, but all anyone sees outside our family is a boastful, explosive, uncooperative, negative child.

He often cries and says sorry after his outbursts and says he hates himself and wants to die. He doesn't WANT to behave like he does but can't control it I guess.

Consequences and punishments just seem to make things worse. He doesn't respond meaningfully to rewards either.

I really really relate to the whole frequency thing you mention. When a child is angry or combative it's manageable, but when it's every day, multiple times, it really adds up. I feel like such a shit mum, and the impact on his sibling is huge too.

Until you are living with a child with this type of behaviour impossible to understand and very easy to judge. There is very little you can do when a child does not respond to consequences, will ignore everything you say, is unbothered by having things removed, has no reaction to being told off, will scream and shout, is strong enough to physically attack you and is hard to restrain safely.

@Alotofpink i know a child who acts the same and has autism with pda diagnosis. It’s awful to witness and the impact on the family is huge. She doesn’t respond to consequences and she is very challenging to be around. She sees a therapist to help get her to open up about her feelings but she is very resistant. You need to view her behaviour as anxiety and stress based, it’s hard to do as it feels so personal but she probably likes control, consistency and a feeling of being heard. Unfortunately children like this can be very hard to reason with, they remember everything you’ve ever said and will use it against you. Jealousy over sibling seems to be an issue and can be a catalyst for worse behaviour. There doesn’t seem to be an easy answer unfortunately. Just know you’re not alone.

For example when someone doesn’t do what she says she will punch them in the face. Or she will deliberately say extremely hurtful and horrible things

The school needs to be completely on top of this, this is unacceptable that another child will be physically hurt due to her out of control behaviour.

She may have needs but other children need to be safe at school.

she will hit our other child.

What? And what do you do about this?

Your younger child will be severely affected by being abused like this - this can't be allowed to happen.

It sounds like narcissism to me. I don’t know what age narcissists begin to exhibit the signs, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s in childhood.

I don’t think it’s narcissism but I have read that there are familiarities and cross overs with some of the behaviour at times.

I truly doubt that the impact this behaviour has on her other child has simply never occurred to the OP…

No it is always on my mind. She is so loving when she wants and then pushes when she is in a mood. Little one is only 2.5. Unfortunately the little one has learned to push and snatch. 😔