What does control look like?

[GoingOffScript]

Referring to Stuart Hogg and the abusive relationship with his wife. I work in a mostly female environment and we were talking about domestic abuse and this story. I divorced a man who (I’m told) was controlling and emotionally manipulative. I failed to recognise this. My understanding of abusive control is when your partner (male or female) restricts your freedom, tells you what to wear, calls you endlessly on a night out “checking” on you. Today, this was the consensus.

My ex was a loving and generous man. Never restricted me in terms of how I looked what I wore etc. he liked to be seen with me, as an attractive partner. What he did was threaten to divorce me because I was on Facebook making “friends”; he’d ignore me for days on end if we had a disagreement, even a small one. He’d move into the spare room/talk to everyone and his friend but not me. I’d try, by any means, to calm the situation and “retrieve” the doomed marriage. And I did, each year (sometimes more) I’d manage to smooth things over and we’d move forward. Until the next time. If (rarely) I answered back, he called me unreasonable and a bully and… tell me to go away, think about what I’d done, and he’d think seriously about whether he’d divorce me. Or not. He knew every painful thing I’d experienced in my life and then used them to threaten me with my worst nightmare, abandonment .

Posted too soon…

My question is, was this wonderful, funny, clever man emotionally abusive or was I just not up to his standards? My ExH would reduce me to a snot covered, tear stained, blotchy faced crumpled heap on the floor, after days of being ignored and threatened with essentially being asked to leave.

I had to write to him as he wouldn’t engage with me despite being in the next room.

So, when we were chatting today, I listened and thought… “ExH never did THIS or THAT”.

Was it abuse?

He was emotionally abusive. He was punishing you to control you. It wouldn’t have mattered what you did it would have never have been good enough because he wanted to exert power over you.

Both your experience and what your work mates are talking about are abuse.

I’m sorry you went throught that.

Yes he was abusive.

Yes he was abusive. He showed you the nice/nasty cycle of abuse this entire relationship. His behaviour re FB, his talking to everyone else but you for days on end (that’s emotional abuse): all of it is abusive behaviour towards you.

Such men too hate women. All of them.

Abuse is not solely physical in nature.

Abuse is about power and control and he wanted absolute over you. Your mate and you were both abused.

What you are describing is - from the outside - exactly what living with an extreme narcissist is like.

How many people did you tell about your marriage dynamic and about these days in which all support and affection was withdrawn from you, so systematically, while you were with your ex? Who noticed it as it was happening? How do you feel about romance and love now? How long did it take you to trust again?

Sounds just like abuse to me. And I think we all need to keep talking about what abuse looks like. Because the chances are that we all have a friend who is being coerced / bullied / abused in another way. We just didn’t think to look for it, behind the smiles and charm when we see them together.

I couldn’t possibly tell my friends. My mum knew. My sister knew bits of it. I’d already had one hugely failed relationship and had a young son. I thought I was entering into a marriage with a kind loving and clever man; he was, all of that. A brilliant father to his own teens. Very charming, good career, way above me intellectually and I was flattered by his attention and love. I know that he DID love me but he was emotionally labile to the point where, if my son’s dad came and was too friendly with me, he might say “You’re looking well, Going” or give me a hug, my husband would bring it up, months later and tell me I ought to have not got into a conversation with the man; with our son standing there. I had no love for my son’s father but the fact was, we did have a relationship back in the day and we did have a son.

No one saw it as it happened. I once sat on a supermarket car park in my vehicle following an altercation which to this day, I’ve no clue as to the reason, and was so unsure about going home, I phoned him to say “will it be ok if I come home or am I going to Coventry. Again.” I had no bolt holes to go to. I’d ask if we could get my son off to his dad’s for the weekend before he stopped speaking to me. You know, just pretend all was ok, so as not to upset DS.

I’ve no interest in relationships now. It’s flattering but annoying when friends say “You’re kind and funny and look amazing and you’ll meet someone else”. My rationale is, if I could love someone that much and wait 4 years to be together after long distance dating and within six months, he wanted me to leave… what’s the point?!

@NeedsMustNet I’d had a life of abandonment and was passed around a fair bit as a baby/toddler/child. I used to wait by a window at my nanna’s where I lived and wait for my mum coming to see me. I was told that if I was a good girl, she’d come. I think I was always searching for a safe place emotionally and thought I’d found it albeit later in life. Turns out, it was like telling someone you’re terrified of heights and them making you live in the top floor of an apartment block.

The fact that you can't see the abuse is a concern for subsequent relationships.

He was kind and nice when he got his own way. In order to get his own way, he bullied you until you did what he wanted.

The fact you still say that you don't come up to his standards is very telling. You obviously saw yourself as less than.

I definitely think your relationship with your ex was abusive and the fact you question whether you were good enough suggests you will repeat patterns in future relationships.

Op I really think you need some therapy to help unpick all this trauma, it sounds like you've had it really tough

@username299 @Landlubber2019 Oh bless you for being so kind. This is me, post counselling!

Try to hold the relationship up to a positive threshold, rather than comparing it to abuse first.

Your spouse should be your most important person, after all, you chose to spend your life with them. If you didn't like them, leaving is an option. So what do you want your spouse to feel? Presumably loved and cherished. A priority and that they matter, their feelings matter, their thoughts and opinions matter, at least as equally as yours. Something along those lines?

These are not pie in the sky things. These are cornerstones of healthy relationships.

So think how he made you feel. Would you be happy for your best friend or daughter to feel like that, ever? That they don't measure up: that they're inferior to their partner? That they couldn't voice an opinion he didn't like? That he'd know they were frying their hearts out and he'd ignore them?

I don't believe you'd wish for anybody to feel like you did. And that feeling is a very good place to start. Because even if you had feelings that were wildly "wrong", if he was treating you with love, he'd not make you feel bad or punish you for them. If he respected you he also wouldn't. And you know, your feelings are your feelings. They're not wrong or right, they just are. But this man who apparently loved you more than anybody, was CONTENT, if not happy, to punish you for not toeing his line. That's really, really not ok.

If you haven't already, look up gaslighting and DARVO and become so knowledgable about them that you bore yourself. Being able to spot these instantly is the only way to protect yourself from them in the future.

And in case I'm not clear: yes, it was abuse. Just because other people can't define something properly doesn't mean they're right. Also, did you tell them what he did and they told you it's ok, it's not abuse? I'd be surprised if they thought his behaviour was remotely acceptable.

Finally, abusers aren't people who hide in dark shadows. They have an invisibility cloak which hides them by making them look just like everybody else. That's what makes them able to find people to abuse. There is always a nice side and often a very charming one. Charm isn't a characteristic though, it's an act.

And I don’t think I’ll ever be in the position to have anything like this happen again. It would be foolish to even consider it.

I have a part time job and do some volunteering locally. I have male (and obviously female) friends who have supported me. I wasn’t my usual self at work this week and a male colleague texted me to ask if all was ok. If I’d still been with my ExH I’d have had to explain why he texted me. Or hide the message, like I was doing something wrong. Or lie, to save my own skin. No. I won’t ever be doing that again. I’m sad that ExH thought men were only interested in me as a “prospect”; like I had no other value. They were always just attracted to me for one reason. Couldn’t be because they found me interesting or just good company.

@daretodenim it wasn’t an act. He WAS charming and smart and very attentive. But. His first wife had an affair which he dragged into our marriage. One of his kids hated that dad had, four years later, committed to me. Wasn’t about me per se; it just wasn’t the reunion they’d wanted between their parents. Very common. I was not the OW. However, the kids refused contact for years and though he said he wouldn’t, he blamed me. Quietly at first but on and on it went and it got that I couldn’t discuss anything with him without him saying he’d divorce me. It literally mauled my heart and left it crying (along with me), in a corner. I basically had no value.

I still believe he was a good man essentially but couldn’t stop wanting to threaten me and then pardoning me, if I did some sort of performative quality begging; that is I had to be reduced and know what I was to him.

I do think it essential that control isn’t “just” about your partner saying “don’t go out all dressed up”!

You say your ex is fundamentally a good man despite saying you've had counselling regarding this.

Domestic abuse is poorly understood. If it was better understood, fewer people would be abused and there would be more support.

Abusive behaviour is done in order to maintain power and control in the relationship. You'll know you're with an abuser when you're not doing what they want.

Although you do get sadists who get a kick out of breaking you down and you can't do anything right, many are nice as pie when things are going their way.

Your ex wasn't a fundamentally nice guy, he was a misogynist who bullied you to keep you in your place. He had no respect for you and enjoyed reducing you to tears.

He gave you the silent treatment because he got a kick out of you begging for him to speak to you and it trained you not to challenge him.

I only challenged him once. And we ended up divorced. It was the first time I hadn’t calmed him and the situation down. When I produced the “evidence” he requested, he said I’d “missed my chance”!

I think some men (and women, of course) know when they start a relationship that their partner might be easily manipulated. Just a theory.

@daretodenim I’ve read up on DARVO. It’s chilling.

The problem I have is WHY! Why would a man who described you as the person he’d waited for his entire life, FINALLY get what he wanted and THEN start to devalue the relationship, the person and say things like… “I want a divorce” when you’d had an altercation about a shopping receipt? Or, when I used to try to discuss something that was troubling me, he’d get up and leave the conversation, sleep in the spare room or on the sofa then walk out for days on end?

The sorrow he felt afterward was also distressing. I never got to express how I felt; I sought answers but I just had stone cold silence. When I’ve finally found something I’ve searched for, I don’t devalue it. It’s baffling to me that a person WOULD so casually want to threaten divorce. It frightened the bejesus out of me.

Yes abuse

@GoingOffScript It's concerning that you still think he was a good person. He absolutely wasn't. The why is easy - because he could and because he enjoyed the power and control he had over you. Like a cat playing with a mouse.

He didn't care about you, it wasn't you he valued.That's why he shut you down, he simply wasn't interested. It was the feeling of power that treating you so badly gave him that he valued.

Have you done the Freedom Program yet? Or read Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft? If not, I suggest you do, they will give you the answers you are looking for and hopefully stop you choosing another wrong'un. I say this as someone with a really bad track record who has finally seen the light and is now happily single. 😊

@unsync Thank you for your response. I have read the Lundy Bancroft book but found the references to actual physical violence confusing. I grew up with extreme violence in the home. I watched my mother physically abused and she was a regular at our city hospital during the 60’s 70’s and 80’s. She’s dead now but credited me with saving her life and getting her out of the house one dreadful night because I knew either my father would kill her or, I would seriously injure him. My sister and I grew up appeasing and calming/diffusing situations and we’d often sleep in the same bed as teens with a huge carving knife under it; ready to step up if mum needed us. We both grew up believing that THAT was abuse. Possibly, it’s why I find it so difficult to relate myself to being in an abusive relationship. Don’t know.

My ex was damaged by the failure of his first marriage after his wife had a long affair. I don’t think he ever trusted me to the point where he’d want a divorce because I’d talked to someone or disrespected him (????) by talking about my former husband with my son. I think he detested the idea that I’d ever cared for/loved anyone other than him.

Didn’t matter how I adored him. How many times I reiterated that he was the absolute love of my life; the more he heard it the more insecure he was. I will look at The Freedom Program.

@GoingOffScript I'm sorry you had such an awful childhood. It does make sense that you equate abuse with violence. I attended my local Women's Aid when I was recovering from my abusive marriage. They ran a course based on the Freedom Programme, but more woman centric. It was a real eye opener.

I learned that there are four main types of abuse: physical; emotional/psychological; financial and sexual. I realised that as well as the emotional abuse, I had also been subjected to sexual and financial abuse. I think I was so conditioned to the behaviour, that I just thought it was normal and also that it was just easier to give in and get it over with. It's quite shocking when you think about it.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say, is that it might be worth seeing if your local Women's Aid run something similar. It really helped me being with other women and sharing. It was a very empowering experience.

You describe your ex here as a loving man. In what way is any of that behaviour 'loving'?

Very glad he is your ex.

Also, sound like coercive control ?

He was not a good man, essentially. That is not what “good” or “essential “ mean.

A good person treats everyone with kindness and respect and does not punish one person because they had an unhappy experience with someone else. If you had a bad experience with a bus driver in the morning can you be excused for screaming at a different bus driver on the next leg of the journey? What does mr goodman’s relationship with his ex have to do with his sulking, threatening, monitoring, and correcting behavior towards you? Because you were both women? Because you were both women in a sexual relationship with him? A good man would treat each of you well because that is the kind of person he is—not treat both of you badly in anger over first wife’s supposed faults.