Its an in laws one

[Utterlydrain3d]

So I've separated from my stbxh and am working on getting divorced. The reason is entirely stbxhs fault and he currently has no contact with dc at all.

His parents took this all very hard, both coming to terms with his behaviour and they got very afraid that I would stop them from seeing dc. I've always got on quite well with them and I've been expressly clear that I wouldn't want dc to lose any more especially when it's not my in laws at fault. I've told this to them both in person and repeatedly to fil by text.

They previously would have seen dc once a month or thereabouts and I would have made a lot of effort inviting them round for dinner and arranging to call in with them so they could see dc. They rarely ever asked for more than this. However, since the separation, they suddenly wanted to see dc more than once a week. It felt very intense to me and as a single parent juggling full time work it was putting me under pressure to have to host them so I only facilitated contact once a week. Fil would invariably request to come again the next day or the following day or find excuses to pop in. One week he was there 4 days in a row.

We recently moved in order for me to get a new job that will be better pay and hours and more security as a lone parent and they again, took this really hard. Fil sobbed over multiple visits and told me he was disappointed as he wanted me to stay in my old job and he would leave work to do my childcare. This would never have been something I'd consider, I've always found him a bit pushy and I sometimes have to gently call him out on things regarding dc - never anything major but enough for me to notice and to bug me. Since moving they're insisting on visiting at least once a fortnight (we're just over 2 hrs away) and I make a point of sending photos every single week and do facetimes, fil texts me every other day without fail. Recently fil has started demanding more photos of dc and it's starting to make me uncomfortable. I'm busy, I make plenty of effort with them and I don't get why they weren't this bothered with dc before now. Mil never asks. Ever. Also stbxh isn't allowed contact so I do worry that he's asking for photos on his behalf even though he's said he's not.

I really had hoped the distance would give me a bit of space from them naturally and I feel really torn because I want dc to have good gp relationships but equally I'm personally really struggling with it. I feel very anxious before seeing them because I don't know what fil will bring up and I try to keep everything very separate- I refuse to talk to them about my ex because I think that's better for my relationship with them if it's very separate- but without fail FIL will find a way to bring it up. I've been very clear and it's uncomfortable because he's doing it in a "I care about you" way but it doesn't feel like that so it's hard to confront him. It feels like he's once again stepping on my boundaries but in a clever way. My relationship ending has been devastating and was totally unexpected and I'm doing my best to look after myself so I can be present and show up for dc (under 3yo) and I'm in regular counselling but I don't know how to regulate myself better ahead of these visits and the constant messaging.

I know grandparent relationships are really important and I've no intention of having dc miss out on that, but something about it just feels icky and I can't tell how much is my own issues. Am I being unreasonable or is this overly intense?

I suggest you stop facilitating all of this. It doesn’t sound like you get anything out of this and what are they saying that your child is picking up on? Also grandparents rights aren’t that common a thing but they could be so get legal advice.

I know I don't get anything out of it but I also don't want dc to miss out because I know they love their grandparents. Plus if I need to go to court at some point to argue against my ex regarding contact I've been told that it will stand me in good stead if I'm facilitating contact with the rest of his family as I can show I'm not being unnecessarily difficult and I'm only concerned about safety. My mum keeps saying I'm awful for even thinking this way because they're my dc grandparents... and then that really makes me doubt myself.

Is stbxh an only child? Any other grandchildren?
If your DCs are the only ones then I can see how they would feel something great is slipping away through their son's mistakes. They're probably really hurt by it all

I agree though, it is a lot. Juggling single parenting and work + responding to every little request is too much. Have you had a frank conversation with them?

i don’t take photos of kid every day, I take them when it’s relevant. Tell him yoyu will send regular photos, FaceTime on a schedule that suits you and agree to monthly visits. Put him on mute and only open weekly. Put in boundaries and stick to it

Not an only child - they have 4 other gc who are older and younger than dc.

I feel like I have told them while trying to be aware of their feelings too, but I feel like it just falls on deaf ears. I also don't want to give them the impression that I'm struggling in any way in case that goes back to stbxh who they're still close to.

My mil is much more empathetic and I don't think she's aware of how much fil is in contact and how he comes across - he'll wait until she leaves the room to bring stbxh up for example (Which also makes me think he knows he shouldn't be doing it because she's pulled him on it before) but I know she's quietly struggling with everything (and doesn't want to add to my worries by talking about her own) so I don't want to put her in a position by speaking separately to her about it either. I think part of my problem is that on the surface its not that they're doing anything 'wrong' so it would be really difficult to call out. Like there's nothing 'wrong' with a grandparent asking for photos of their dgc, it's the intensity of the demand given that they had photos and a visit just two days before and another one scheduled but I'm not even sure how I'd put that into words in a way they'd understand or be able to receive it.

In my head I'm thinking to just get Christmas over me as I'll need to see them at some point over that and then to get a bit busier so I have to push the visits back. I'm definitely a bit of a people pleaser so it is really uncomfortable for me being in a position where I have to say no because I don't want to do something rather than because I can't do something if that makes sense. Any cures for that habit of a lifetime would be great!!

Cut back to once a month before the use the increased contract to ask for grandparents rights.

You need to stand up for yourself, you are doing great so don't back down. You've moved, changed jobs and now you need to put your fil in his place, I don't mean cut contact completely or be nasty but monthly visits are really all that's needed, its far more important that your children have a happy relaxed mother over a pushy gf getting his own way. No more face timing, its not needed, just don't take the calls,if you want just send a text saying you're busy and will be in touch. No more photographs, again not necessary (and looking for that many makes me suspicious of intent, he may be supplying his son), are you getting some counselling? If not, you should start. Explain to the counsellor how much pressure you are being put under due to fil. Mil sounds less pushy, maybe one face time a month through her but seriously, its not needed. Obviously whatever your ex did it was enough to cause the relationship to break down and for him to not see the children at the moment, keep notes/record of all the fil's contact because it's starting to sound like harassment, he sounds like a bully. Last of all, well done you, moving homes and changing jobs are huge, you've managed both so you are doing great but remember to look after yourself too.

This is a worry and I could see fil being all over that... equally I don't want it being used against me if I have to fight against stbxh around contact. When things happened police were involved and that same night fil was on my sofa offering to be the one to facilitate contact between dc and stbxh ... I dunno if he just hadn't processed the gravity of things or was in denial or if he's just got blinders on as it's his son but I'm very aware he's in a different place with it all than I am and my only priority is what's best for dc. Mil was immediately on my side and has avoided stbxh ever since as far as I know.

Thank you @mudflaps Its been a lot and I am proud of myself for getting through it all. I'm getting regular counselling which has been really helpful and fil does feature in sessions!

I would try this - Worry less about pleasing FIL or being polite. He doesn't worry that his behaviour will put you off does he? So be more like FIL. Just ignore a request for photos if some were sent two days ago or if you are busy. If FIL mentions your ex try a Paddington bear stare, create an uncomfortable silence and leave the room - or call him out "I thought I was clear I didn't want to talk about Ex under any circumstances" - rinse and repeat. Facilitate a level of contact that suits you. A court will probably look just as kindly on contact once a month with pictures on birthdays and big events if you want to demonstrate that you are maintaining contact with the family.

Sit your FIL down and tell him. If he interrupts, say “please don’t interrupt.” Start at A and end at Z.
Be diplomatic but firm.
If he cries, have tissues at the ready.
Have rules ready to be established and even written down.
For example:
1: you can see the children every Sunday.
2: the subject of ex is TOTALLY off limits
3: phone calls are limited to twice weekly
4: and whatever other boundaries you have
Explain the pressure, not his pressure.
Don’t allow him to manipulate or gaslight you (this is where writing down things comes in).
Establish boundaries for yourself.
Your kids were fine with seeing their grandparents once a week before, they’ll be fine seeing them once a week again.
Your FIL is probably going crazy because he knows your ex messed up and is terrified you’ll take the kids away — older people need tons of reassurance. Be reassuring, but FIRM.
It’ll take a very strong and brave woman to do this, but honestly, it’s the only way you’ll get any peace.
The pressure this man is putting on you is ridiculous, but it won’t stop until you stop it.
Bastard.

I think you do need to speak to MIL about how FIL is.
I know you are trying to be kind but I think she can help.
You need to be firm about not bringing up STBXH. Just shut it down whatever form it comes in.
I would also say that they can take photos when they come but you aren’t sending any unless it’s a special event eg a nativity play photo.
As long as you are facilitating some relatively regular contact I don’t think it will look bad on you.

Once a month is plenty.

i would also be concerned that lots of contact gives them grounds to eventually go after grandparents rights

They're not even old, just turned 60 the other month and very fit and active both of them.

I'm taking all this on board, I was really worried about letting stbxh actions cloud my judgement and be unfair to them but this has all been really reassuring that I'm not crazy

Do not give them a regular scheduled day. That is setting a precedent.

Every time he mentions stbxh - hand up, say ‘you’ve been told before about this and you will have to leave if it continues’.
Then the minute MIL is back reiterate ‘as I’ve just said to FIL when he mentioned X - it stops or unfortunately you need to leave’

He won’t like it and mr nice will either disappear or cry. He is trying to bully you. Let’s face it he raised his son.

I think once a month is plenty, not enough thatthey can try and claim anything legal but enough that you can be seen to facilitating contact.
Is FIL displaying any behaviours that remind you of the reasons you split up with your ex? Being pushy, manipulative etc?
They tend to learn this stuff from somewhere

You need clarity of consequences with FIL when he oversteps - ACTIONS not words.

He is highly manipulative - he is 100% on his sons side and this is all for his benfit - not your sons or you.

Tell him once what the consequence is and then enact it.

'If you mention xH directly or indirectly - I will get up and leave' - then do it.

He is harassing you. Tell him you will see him once a month and send a photo once a fortnight - this was the pattern before. He is plotting something that is not in your or your DC best interests. Step right back.

His behaviour and dmands are also preoccupying you and distressing you - this is time, headspace and emotional energy drained from your DC - your DC only has one parent - they need all of you a your best.....you need the best of experience of motherhood after your ordeal .... your FIL is derailing this for his own sons benefit.

The apple didnt fall far from the tree.

It's a really complicated situation, stbxh was for all intents and purposes a good husband to me - worked hard never raised his voice, always supportive and was like their golden boy. Then I found out he was basically living a double life and was in trouble with police which he'd gone to great lengths to conceal from me. It was a massive shock and ruined my life as I knew it completely.

I wouldn't say he reminds me of stbxh necessarily but it definitely does make me wary because I don't know why stbxh did what he did. (We've never talked about it because I wouldn't believe a word that came out of his mouth now no matter what he said so it would be pointless) but I agree mostly those behaviours stem from somewhere so I'm trying to navigate being really cautious but also not being unfair to them either because stbxh is an adult and responsible for his own actions.

Fil has always been pushy under the reasoning that family is important and its what mil would want (even if she's saying nothing or the opposite). Even when I had my dc I said I wanted some time to recover after difficult births and surgery and just wanted a day or two and they were at the house waiting for me when I got back from the hospital and he found a 'reason' to visit every single day that week. It really annoyed me because my own parents hadn't even got meeting dc and yet they were round flat out which felt really unfair. It only stopped when the midwife intervened. Usually I'd have got stbxh to enforce the boundaries as its his family and I did the same with mine but fil always would have found a way to guilt trip him and make it difficult to say no so I'm now dealing with it on my own. It's so frustrating because I love my mil and we get on like a house on fire when we're together and she's always been very supportive and respectful so I don't want to upset her in any way.

Your MIL is not as nice as you think.

She was happy to stand back and facilitate FIL steam rolling your boundaries when you were vulnerable and post partum. And a professional saw it to be so inappropriate they had to step in.

Your FIL is a highly challenging and manipulative character - his actions are taking your finite focus/energy etc which needs to be pivoted to your DS.

I would see him as emotionally dangerous - put in boundaries and batten down hard. Calmly state the boundary - you have no obligation to keep explaining or justifying it to him. He will just snare you in a web of words. One sentance - rinse and repeat once then take action. It sounds exhausting and draining and he has form for this. Dont let him engulf you.

Learn about FOG 'fear, obligation, guilt' - this is what he is eliciting in you and these are never ever good reasons/emotions to take compliant actions. Its coercion and you need to listen to your gut and put in emotional and logistical distance with these people.

I think that’s really unfair to MIL to be honest. OP has said she likes MIL and we should take her word for it.

Blaming a woman for a man’s actions is the height of covert misogyny.

I actually agree, MIL is not responsible for the actions of her husband and son but she could arrange to see OP alone or speak up
She is most likely an enabler

I see that the OP says 'they' were steam-rollering boundaries - both at the door when she came home from hospital and 'they' were round the flat and MW had to intervene.....so MIL actions all her own.

You have to consider you and your child in this situation. The reality is that your ex husband is in trouble with the police and what he did has ended your marriage. It's hard for anyone dealing with this situation and then having to figure out what happens next.
The reality is that you have gotten a better job for more money and had to move 2 hours away to do this.
Your fil wanted you to stay in your last job and offered to do childcare to enable this. He is unhappy that you took the new job and moved away. He wants you to keep face timing, meeting up with them with your child and is demanding photo's. To me it's obvious that he is doing this for his son. Him and his wife have had prior issues with understanding boundaries.

At this stage I would tell him that you are busy with your new job and getting you and their grandchildren settled in the new area. You no longer have the time for all the sending photos, face timing and meeting them with their grandchild as often as you have been.
The minute you're mil goes out of the room he is pushing for more things always.

You need to ring her and tell her as well that he is doing. Tell her I don't want to hear about my ex husband and I won't be bullied into this continues keeping in contact with you.
It would be a pity to keep annoying me because I will be left with no choice but not to visit or keep in contact with you. I think that you need to be that blunt with her.

They are in contact with their son and he is pushing for photos. The father is probably a domineering person but you don't need all this now. Your trying to build a new life and get a fresh start. Your child will get older and in school they will have friends and be busy at the weekends. They won't want to travel 4 hours every Sat or Sunday to see grandparents.
Going forward at some time in the future you may want to meet someone else.

I know several families. As their kids got older the parents were working and weekends were spent bring kids to sports, birthday parties and catching up with things at the weekend.
Grandparents had to accept that they would see them lees or just at school holidays times.
I think that you have been very understanding to them but you need to put boundaries in place now because it is effecting your life and mental health. You can't look after your child unless you stay well also.

@Utterlydrain3d can you put him/them in the archive file on WhatsApp if that’s what he uses to contact you? You’re two hours away so just ignore him UNTIL IT SUITS YOU!. Send photos as often as you used to, or less, same applies to calls or FaceTime. Have you discussed this with your solicitor at all, they might offer some strategies to help you see straight? As pp have said, he does what he wants regardless of your wishes, so try not to let yourself be bullied or bulldozed.

Your FIL gives me the creeps.
No waybwould I have that every Sunday.
Once a month only.
Keep all texts froendly and nice in case you need them.
Be busy with other things unfortunately.
Once a month you can do but you work and are building a new life with your children so you are not free weekly.

ONE call a week max too.
Photo once a week.
Do not engage or negotiate on these points.
Tell him this is it.
I actually wouldn't want to be alone with someone so pushy.

He is a manipulative bully.

FIL is an overbearing bully and his wife knows it. Put yourself first as you've been through enough. Massive pat on the back to you!! Well done girl!
Push back and block him if you have to. Once a week is more