The Alpha Course and homophobia

[user1469485133]

Hi,

My friend has just started going to The Alpha Course and asked if I wanted to go along one Sunday. She's Romanian and was raised in religion but basically broke away.
I'm openly lesbian and not religious, and have read about Alpha. What I've read has left me not feeling good towards the general jist of the course.
To be honest, I'm worried about her and am concerned that our relationship/friendship will change. As far as I can see, The Alpha Course is homophobic.
It's possible that my friend has explored the idea of being attracted to women, although she dates men.

I'd like to know others experience of this - especially those in the LGBT arena.

Thanks!

A good number of years ago now, but two of my friends did Alpha. One of them left after a few weeks as she realised it had caused her to start having negative thoughts about gay people, which she hadn't had before and didn't really believe. Can't speak for now but it was definitely there 15 years ago.

Wow! That's interesting! Thanks for sharing that. I wonder how they feel about it now?

So the people on alpha aren't saying things are sins from a place of superiority, but from a place of solidarity.

hrm. That's something of an idealization of how it should be, but it works very differently in reality.

Indeed.

Some of them probably believe they are speaking in solidarity rather than superiority - freely acknowleding that they are also sinners and no one sinner is particularly less-in-need-of-forgiveness than the next but they are still having the arrogance/judgementalism to be working on the assumption that their specific understanding of what is sinful and what isn't is correct.

I wrote quite a lengthy contribution to the recent "Living in Love and Faith" consultation within the CofE about these matters. Summary: it is internally irrational, irreconcilable and inconsistent to simultaneously acknowledge that (1) no one has control over whether they are heterosexual or homosexual, (2) acknowledge celibacy is a "calling"/vocation that not everyone has the capacity for (intrinsically acknowledged in CofE and why CofE priests are allowed to marry) and (3) hold that sexual relationships are only non-sinful within marriage - unless one also (4) fully embraces and affirms homosexual marriage. Without homosexual marriages having equal status within the church you have to be either saying that homosexuality is a choice one can opt out of, or be saying that homosexual people must be expected to have a greater capacity for celibacy than heterosexual people when it's fully obvious and acknowledged that that's an impossible standard for the vast majority who don't have that specific vocation, or else you are being exceedingly irrational and not very bright.

@MarketValveForks I totally agree and what you are saying aligns with my beliefs.

However, the everyone being a sinner thing is pretty fundamental to alpha, and many/all(?) Christian denominations, but the homosexuality being a sin thing is not.

I think that often the two become entwined, especially when talking about alpha and I was trying to untangle them a bit.

This also explains the different experiences people on this thread have reported, where some have done alpha with no mention of sexuality and others ot has been a major part of it.

To me they are totally separate and I hate that it causes so much pain and rejection to LGBT+ folks when homosexuality and sin are paired together by Christians. I may even have done it myself when I was a teenager, before I realised how damaging the language was (sorry all).

Yes @DucklingSwimmingInstructress I admit I am an optimist...

very interesting points @MarketValveForks

Enforcing celibacy/sexual abstinence in the Catholic church clergy just has not worked, if the authorities looked it at with clear eyes and a pragmatic and honest assessment. The Catholic situation supports your arguments clearly.

People can be friends and have different values and opinions. If you are unable to deal with that then end the friendship and go and find a clone of yourself to play with.

FFS, being concerned that her thread is taking a course that may encourage homophobia isn't only wanting to "play with a clone of yourself".

I think this is what the issue comes down to for me - at least in as far as this thread is concerned. Your friend can have views that don’t align with yours op.

I think it’s really important that as a society we develop genuine acceptance of different stances.

Much good work has happened in recent decades in dismantling a lot of entrenched prejudices that have lurked in society for generations, or longer. But it’s really important we manage to do that in a constructive way, and not a very simplistic “was the established and accepted view so now must be bad” attitude so that rather than creating a more open-minded society, we are simply slamming down those sitting on the other end of the see-saw. Their side was up; now it’s down. You see this such a lot on MN. For example, it’s great that we have created space and energy in society for women to hold more equality within family dynamics and not always have to be the default homemaker, the one to step back in her career when Dc arrive, or the one who has to avoid expressing views for the sake of family harmony etc. However, you only have to consider the number of threads on here that demonise men and MILs to see it’s gone way too far. “LTB”, “MIL should just shut up” etc etc. There has to be space for balance around societal change, and respecting other people’s positions doesn’t have to mean adhering to it yourself.

Are people honestly suggesting that lesbians should be friends with homophobes because we should all accept people have differing views? Seriously? Should black people also be friends with racists? Women friends with misogynists?

I'm with you @CuriousGeorge80

Why not be friends with someone who thinks that Ted Bundy just has different opinions?

The spread of homophobia through some churches is dangerous, along with the spreading belief that women should be secondary to men and men have the right to enforce women carrying a pregnancy to term.

I think this is what the issue comes down to for me - at least in as far as this thread is concerned. Your friend can have views that don’t align with yours op.

I'm not sure that's exactly the point.
From what the op has said, her friend isn't, as of now, homophobic. I think it's not at all unreasonable that she should be concerned about whether the Alpha course may negatively influence her friends's views.

Jesus loves everyone and judges no one. We are all equal. Any other belief is man made fluff, so can be ignored.

I did the course a long time ago. I recall nothing anti LGBQT in it. It was run by a very liberal Cof E church I then attended for years after.
They would not stand for any homophonic or bigotry in any of the lessons.

Curious what your interpretation of the 'parable of the sheep and goats' is!

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025%3A31-46&version=NIV

...pretty sure that's not the only explicitly judgy bit in the New Testament. Assuming you don't (quite reasonably) believe that document to be man made albeit not all that fluffy.

@ErrolTheDragon isn't that about the end of the world and the difference between people who welcomed God into their lives, i.e. Christians and those who didn't? I don't think I have heard teaching on that passage so that is just my interpretation.

It's 'the son of man' (ie Jesus) very explicitly judging people according to their deeds (not whether they'd 'welcomed him into their lives') and then consigning the ones who hadn't lived well to hell. Which doesn't sound a lot like loving everyone to me.

But to be sure, it doesn't mention Jesus judging people on their (presumably god given) sexuality

I would advise everyone contemplating Alpha to look at the links between it and Iwerne. I personally believe that it is contaminated but I'm not going to post links but just advise people to people look for themselves and use their own judgement. There is no excuse for abuse and so many protections of the inexcusable have happened.

As to Alpha itself, I think it is a particular Evangelical view of a particular kind. It is not the only way of interpreting the Bible.

@ErrolTheDragon

Yes. Thanks, wasn't paying attention enough to the first few words. It is Jesus rather than God. However it does literally say " you welcomed me in" so I am going to stick with my assumption that it is refering to believers and nonbelievers. Also, Christianity is fundamentally a choice based religion. You want in, you say yes to Jesus and join; you don't, then fine but you "go to hell" when judgement day happens.

Noone knows what hell is, in the same way that noone knows what heaven is. It could be fire and brimstone and eternal torture. But as you have pointed out that doesn't really fit with the image of a loving Christ. It could be eternal separation from God. Or just that non believers experience nothing after death and they simply cease to exist.

Either way, if you aren't a Christian then it shouldn't really be relevant to you except as an interesting thought experiment.

I think we might be slightly derailing the op though so it may be better to start a separate thread if you would like to carry on our interesting chat?

@BoydTheApe the op has no right to be 'concerned' for her friend. This friend is a grown woman and she can expose herself to / explore any ideas that she sees fit. Millions of people across the earth do not agree that gay relationships are healthy for the people involved in them or for the wider society and many of those people are religious, Christian or otherwise. This friend is obviously a very open minded person to make friends with an openly gay woman and invite her along to attend a course she is interested in. On the other hand, the op seems closed minded, intolerant and incapable of accepting that not everyone has the same values and beliefs as she does. FFS.

Too busy introducing the concept of titheing by the last episode, IIRC. Got to get the sales pitch completed to get people saying 'Oh yeah, it is perfectly reasonable to hand over money each month'.

The homophobia and general interfering in the relationships tends to come a couple of weeks after the extended sales pitch finishes (not chaining oneself to the non-faithful in business or in personal relationships).

Hold on @sunflowersngunpowdr are you seriously calling the OP closed minded, intolerant and incapable of accepting that not everyone has the same values and beliefs as she does because she doesn't go along with homophobia?

Has the concept of illogicality ever crossed your horizon? Because if it hasn't, you might want to look it up!

You’ve made a huge leap from some people accepting that a religion may not condone homosexuality to actually being homophobic. Most Christians believe all have sinned . Does that make them humanophobic? That’s sort of my point: people need to be accepting of each other.