Would you allow contact on Christmas Day?

[OneHardyMintZebra]

Just come out of lengthy private proceedings for child access with my ex who has been granted 6 hours every other weekend which is supervised by his mother because of his ‘medical condition’. He was emotionally abusive and controlling when we were together to the point where I fled with my kids and I’ve lost everything- house, belongings, money etc. It’s been a struggle to start from scratch by myself with 3 kids and he continues to make my life hell and doesn’t contribute a penny towards the kids even though he works full time (tried child maintenance but he still doesn’t pay!)

So he and his mum have asked to see the kids on Christmas Day. I’ve said no. Their contact will fall the weekend after Christmas. I initially said I would bring them Boxing Day which I still think is me being far too nice given everything that they’ve done! She said she’s working and asked for Christmas Eve stating it’s only fair if I’m not allowing them to come on Christmas Day. I’m tempted just to say you can’t have them at all and just stick with the agreed contact which is either a Saturday or Sunday. I know full well when their contact weekend falls on Christmas they will ask them for Christmas Day then and I’ll have no choice so I don’t feel I should have to do it now.
AIBU? I can’t tell if it’s my emotions ruling my decision here. For further context my oldest child isn’t his and I don’t want to have to ferry him about during the time over Christmas I have him, or him to have anything to do with the contact as he was physically hurt by my ex and I don’t believe he should have to see the man again where possible (the court didn’t agree and said he could stay in the car!) what would you do?

Don't think @CBM40 is correct

There's no such thing as residency in UK courts, it's all about shared care. Splitting or alternating Christmases and birthdays etc is the norm.

If the only reason you don't want the DC to go to him for a few hours at Christmas eve is becauseyou are (justifiably) angry with your ex, then you really do need to let them go. It's not in anyone's interest for you to use the DC as a tool to punish him.

No that’s not a thing. If contact falls on Christmas Day then OP has to make them available. It’s something that should really have a rota or process set out in child arrangement if it ever gets to 50-50.

The way you are doing it is a bit risky as when Christmas is a Saturday, the following year Christmas might be a Sunday - it’s not fair that they would get both years if it’s dependant on Granny’s shifts.

Is there something in the court order that says you have to drop them off? They were available for contact on the dates you couldn’t afford to get them there. Why couldn’t he or his mum collect? That’s what happens for the supervised visits I’ve got involvement in. Hopefully he gets a bollocking from the judge for taking you to court rather than arranging for his mum to collect and return the kids.

Why isn’t CMS doing collect from salary?

I’m not using the children as a tool at all. I have never denied contact and gone out of my way to facilitate (in my opinion) unreasonable contact. When originally contact started at 1 hour a day and I still had to make a 4 hour journey to facilitate that.

When the contact got moved to his mums it got cancelled a lot by him (as I presume he couldn’t be bothered to make the journey each week). So if anything I would say he’s used contact as a tool. It’s all a game to him. It is more consistent now I communicate via his mother as she will usually still see them even if he doesn’t turn up.

I don’t have to take them over Christmas at all. I have offered Boxing Day as I have plans with all my children on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day I won’t be local to her house. But I take on board peoples opinions that it is reasonable to take them on Christmas Eve.

As his mother is being more reasonable, perhaps she could collect the DC's from you? Not necessarily at your address, could just be at a coffee shop or public library, anywhere that's warm and dry should you need to wait on her arrival?
If they refuse this, then it's their loss, you are still making your DC's available.
If a court has really said you have to pay to take and collect the DC's, despite him not paying CM, that is clearly wrong and you have been had. I'd be inclined to ignore what the court said in that case, only do visits if she will collect them, and let them take it back to court if they don't like it, hopefully your next legal rep would be better at it - and also the judge.

That’s exactly what will happen when it falls on their weekends. I accept I can’t do anything about that and of course they will say Christmas Day each year. But that maybe increases me feeling that they shouldn’t get to demand a day this year when it doesn’t fall on their weekend at all.

I did provide evidence of my finances when he took me back to court. So they didn’t pursue his application of costs for his legal fees which he was asking for. However they weren’t particularly sympathetic to my situation. And accepted his mother isn’t responsible for transporting the children to contact which I think is ridiculous when she’s supervising and had to travel there herself anyway! But she said no she wouldn’t help to transport and that is her right to do. As obviously I did say the children are available, I just can’t get them there but did offer to get them to his mums which he and his mum didn’t go for. So again for me, it’s not about the kids as they have willingly chosen not to see them as they would rather see me continue to struggle to transport them myself rather than help

We must have had that put into the agreement ourselves. I always have dc on Xmas day and ex always has dc on boxing day no matter what day of the week it is. I also have other friends that have the same arrangement. That's why I thought it was a thing. Apologies

Would your children have a better or worse time for seeing them?
Would he go back to court to set arrangements for Xmas day? If he does you'll be likely to have to take turns

To be clear, I'm not disputing that he's used them as a tool - he's clearly a complete wanker! . But you have to be the bigger person and consistently NOT stoop to his level.

Having said that, I don't think I knew that you did have plans for Christmas eve. In which case, I think it's reasonable to say you can do Boxing day only. I wouldn't expect you to change your plans to accomodate your ex and his mother, especially as it's all been a bit up in the air with the final court order only in place now. It was more that if you don't have plans, accomodating their desire to see the children on christmas eve when it doesn't hugely inconvenience you would, in my opinion, be a sensible compromise and allows you to maintain the moral high ground.

OP, most people on this thread will not have experience of dealing with an abuser, or understand that if you give an inch, they will take a mile, because they are constantly looking for vulnerabilities and weaknesses. This contact order was so important to them they took you to court to get it - so I'd be sticking to it.

No Christmas Eve, no Boxing Day. Certainly not Christmas Day. It's down to them to prove that he can be a consistent parent before expecting you to grant him favours.

Being the 'bigger person' with these people is a fast-track to being taken advantage of and abused again, in my experience.

This is interesting, and usually, I'd agree. But in my experience of manipulative, controlling abusers, they're very very good at positioning themselves as the victim, "ohhh, I just love my children so much and I can't believe i can't spend any time with them at Christmas because my ex is such a controlling bitch..." so by giving some small compromise, I find it's a lot easier to withstand the subsequent smear campaign, "well, our court order said nothing about Christmas but I offered a few hours on Christmas eve/Boxing day so that the children could see their dad. <shrug>"

Also, to be clear, I 100% agree - the compromise is NOT to try and get your ex on board. You could give him a monthly stipend, do whatever he asks, wheneever he asks, and take out a full page ad in your local paper singing his praises and he is still going to tell everyone you're the crazy/bitch ex. It's about positioning yourself when he takes you to court again or is ranting to others etc.

@ChristmasFluff @TheTruthICantSay
I think this is what I’m trying to get at. Whether this will come back on me if it goes back to court. As I believe he will take me back in a few years when the kids are older and not as hard work. I genuinely don’t believe he wants them, it’s all for show. And right now it suits him not having to actually parent but he still gets to control my life if only a small part.

Thats the main reason I’ve offered Boxing Day, not because I think it’s in the kids best interests. I don’t believe contact with an abusive man (abusive to children as well) is in any child’s best interests. But if they say they can’t do Boxing Day then will it look unreasonable if I don’t go out of my way to take them for at least a couple of hours on Christmas Eve? It will be a faff and I fully believe that will replace their actual contact the following weekend. and he will likely use the whole ‘i wouldn’t allow him contact at Christmas’ despite them not being able to do that weekend either. If that makes sense

Whatever you decide to do, please keep all the conversations safe so you can refer to them and show you’ve tried/he actually doesn’t show up or care for the dcs.

fwiw he might try and take you to Court again. Or hopefully he’ll get bored of doing a 4 hour trip for an ego boost. Or his mum will have enough to do all the dirty work!

I think there's an argument either way re court. So you accomodating Christmas Eve would look BEST at court, but there's a strong argument that you were willing to compromise with boxing day and they weren't .... So it's a bit 6 of one, half a dozen of another. The point is that you need to be able to show that even though you were not required to, you did make an effort to be accomodating as log as you accept that HE will never, of course, believe or agree to that.

Re time with the kids when older and attempts to get more access, obviously, it's impossible to say. There are two competing imperatives here though I'd say

1. CMS and payment. So many men DO try to get moreo time, only because the're so pissed off at having to pay CMS and more time means less payment. If you do get CMS sorted in due course, it is possible that yes, he will take you back to court as that will be the only way he can reduce those payments.
2. At the moment, his desire to see/have the chidlren is absolutely based on his desire to continue to abuse you. Over time, his desire to actively abuse you may well lessen, not because he's a nice person or will learn better, but because he will have some other woman or person to abuse and from whom he will be getting his supply. So most likely, over time, he will want to see the DC less and less (but do be prepared however for when he first gets in a new relationship as he will have to pretend to be a doting dad with a crazy ex so he'll be making more demands for a while). So it's entirely possible that in a few years time he will be largely absent from their lives entirely. And while it might seem that older children are easier, men like this hate it just as much because the children answer back, ask for things etc....

Following your updates, nope don't bother just stick to the court ordered contact.

Don't facilitate any additional contact over the Christmas period.

Re the child maintenance, is he employed or self-employed? If he is employed, CMS should be able to take the payment directly from his wages even if he refuses to pay.

This is not correct. I have to make my child an available Christmas Day either leaving to go there overnight or coming home in the afternoon from a Christmas Eve overnight. That’s court ordered.

OP I hope you’re keeping a record of when he does and doesn’t turn up to see the kids. The court order is about him not his Mum so I understand she has to be present but grandparents do not have any rights in the UK. If he tries to take you back to court for any reason you can show his lack of commitment.
Additionally I always said to my ex “when you step up the other 364 days of the year I will consider Xmas Day. Never did though. Hope you and the little ones have a great Christmas 🎄

What do your children want? What’s best for their relationship with their dad and grandmother?

Everything you wrote in the OP was about the relationship between you and your ex. I can see why you hate him but this isn’t about your relationship.

That’s a man who was abusive to the OP AND the dcs. Abusive enough that he cannot know what’s her address fir her (and her dcs) safety

Do you think it’s best those children see their father as much as possible?

I would stick with your offer of Boxing Day - it's very reasonable.

I think they're trying to mess you about by insisting on Christmas Eve instead.

Everything in my post still stands. The OP was viewing this through the lens of her relationship with the ex. She should do what is best for the children. What do they want?

They're toddlers, they're not competent to make those decisions. 🙄

They have also suffered abuse from their father. That's why his access is supervised by his mum. It's not best for them to be at their beck and call.

Offering Boxing Day is very reasonable.

Before I made a decision I'd set the recurring schedule on my phone and see for the next ten years what their every other weekend falls on. (Birthdays, Mother's Day, Christmas etc). And yes I know contact can and likely will change, but I'd look at that before deciding how to respond.
If it falls clear and you get the majority of the major days I'd tell him to stuff it. If not, Id reply but agree that you would get the same concessions in return. If he agrees to that over message I'd do it.

But why do you have to do all the dropping off? Is that court ordered? If not I'd tell mum she needs to collect at a local place to you.