Impossible to discuss DW's behaviour with her

[Spacedhazed]

My wife becomes incredibly defensive when I / anyone says anything she deems critical. She wont bother to listen but will immediately start attacking & defending herself.
It's gotten to the stage where I prefer to say nothing just to keep the peace.

However, over the past two weeks she has gotten into a completely unnecessary argument with a family friend, and last week, she had a moan at our children, for something that wasn't their fault.

When I tried to discuss her interaction with the children she became defensive. I changed the conversation but I am feeling incredibly fed up that I am not able to discuss anything with her, for fear of upset her.

I have reached the conclusion that it's better not to say anything but this is slowly wearing me down and I'm feeling frustrated at how much of a grind our marriage has become.

WWYD

A son is different to a DP. I’m also not portraying anyone as anything.

Sure, but I have seen and posted on threads in the past where majority of mumsnet posts were siding with the husband too.

But regardless of a son or husband being a different kind of relationship, the point is that mumsnet does not treat men and women that differently simply because of their sex (or gender if you prefer). And I am sick and tired of the “if it were a woman then it would be a different response.” That is total bullshit and I have not seen any actual evidence of that. In fact, I find that statement rather sexist.

Anyone who posts on mumsnet is going to get a mixture of reasonable responses, troll like responses and sometimes pile ons. Because mumsnet is an internet site that absolutely anyone can post on: male, female, young, old, couples, singles, parents and those who haven’t had children. Anyone can post here as long as they abide by the talk guidelines.

I can't believe the comment on this thread. He works full time , she works part time. It's only fair she either do more house work or do her "fair share" and get a full time job, otherwise it will be OP doing more then he should.
If there is something she's not happy with in relationship she should communicate. Being defensive and passive aggressive is really toxic, pointless behaviour and women should not be excused of it just because they are women.

He works full time , she works part time. It's only fair she either do more house work or do her "fair share" and get a full time job, otherwise it will be OP doing more then he should.

Where did I say anything like that? Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say anything about him needing to do 50/50 or whatever.

I asked if SHE feels he does his fair share? I have no idea if he's doing more than enough or too little based on their work schedules. I do, however, sense that she is handling all the mental load and is exhausted. I asked why he didn't have her back when the DC were whinging about the restaurant, especially as he didn't apparently make any alternative suggestions. I also suggested that her being a bit irritable once a week, when the DC are whing, isn't really that big a deal.

None of which are things he's responded to.

Because he already told you he does his fair share yet you insist that it's likely only in his head and he probably doesn't! Because if a man is nasty he's toxic and if a woman is nasty then it must be man's fault for not being a mind reader and not appeasing to her enough. And it's not just about your comment but most comments on this thread. If yours was original it would just be a different point of view/possibility.
He's wife is not an infant. Whatever she feels she should communicate instead of throwing passive aggressive comments on daily basis. Life together can be hard and we all have things we're not happy with. Nobody is perfect.
If she's always been that way it's probably personality trait. I know many people who are like that because that's how they are.

The OP might not be a man. 🤷‍♀️

So it sounds to me like she is a bit sick of you expecting her to decide everything. Why are you always looking to her to come up with the meal ideas, the restaurant options... I bet this extends to other things too.

And if anything like my partner....is bloody pasta the only meal choice you ever suggest

Maybe she does not think you have her back.

So for the restaurant moaning. What was your approach? Did you say find something positive to say, eg 'we all have different tastes, but I think this is such a nice place, I really like the xyz here, thank you for suggesting it.' Or were you mute/complicit with the kids?

Re the pasta. Maybe say 'I'm in charge of dinner tonight. It's pasta. I know we've had it a lot recently but I've found this new recipe/let's make it easy tonight and think of something more interesting at the weekend'.

You call her dissenting, 'behaviour'. Maybe she feels she's being told off by you, and you are not on her side? Maybe she feels she can't rely on you. Maybe she feels you are always asking her stuff (the pasta is a good eg!)

1 Research proves that men routinely underestimate how much they do at home. Although again, I note I didn't say he wasn't telling the truth, I asked what she FEELs he is doing. What she feels may or may not be fair, I don't know, but if she FEELS that she's doing it all, that might explain some of her frustration.

2 We don't know that she hasn't communicated. He hasn't said. Despite repeated questions on this issue. We do know that she was irritated that he didn't suggest a restaurant and the implication was also that he didn't defend her to the DC when they were moaning. We also know that she was irritated that he asked her what to make for dinner and that he made pasta, again, with the implication being that's what he always makes and suggests. We don't know if any of this is fair, but it does give a small insight into what she may be thinking or feeling.

It's interesting to me how often people tell women to "communicate" better. But when you ask them, they will tell you about the 500 times they have asked for x or explained y. But the man still swears blind she hasn't communicated and a weird proportion of women will still say that SHE needs to therefore find a better way to communicate.

Ok it must be his fault that his wife is nasty. Get it. Men are toxic and no matter how much they work they never do enough. Women are helpless and even if they have more free time they do too much. Poor thing, even being told to communicate by horrible people.

Passive aggressive, demeaning behaviour in front of children is absolutely normal and expected. It must be the result of husband not listening and is the next appropriate step a woman should take. Apparently as a supposedly mature adult, that's the only tool in her box, and great one to model to next generation. And how well it works ! Husband already understands and is in a process of improving! A win for both of them and a whole family.

I honestly don't know why you keep putting words in my mouth. I guess because I'm a woman, I must just communicate better.

Is she annoyed that she had to suggest somewhere to eat (because nobody else would) and she had to say what she wanted for dinner (because you weren’t prepared to crack on and make a meal).
They both sound like quite small things but if you have small kids and do the majority of the domestic work then when it’s not your “turn” to cook then what you really want is for the person whose turn it is to just get on with it without seeking input/advice/instruction/reassurance. When she had to choose the restaurant was this after she had to choose the outing, the specific shops and the purchases? You do your “fair share” - but do you do it without comment? Do you put a load of washing on or do you say “I think I’ll put a wash on” , “do you think I should put a wash on?”, “shall I do some darks?”, “is it PE on Mondays? Does he need his PE kit washing?”, “what temperature does this go on?”, “I’ve put a wash in so I’ll need to hang it out in a bit”, “do you think it will rain?”, “do we need milk?”, “what do you want for dinner?”, “what do you want at the shops?”, “that washing will need hanging up in a bit”.
If she used to be lovely and is now being snippy and unpleasant then it’s likely that she unhappy/annoyed/frustrated.

❤️ Well said!

DH got to this point with communication, we were working with a behavioral therapist for our DC and had agreed we’d remind each other when we were doing things the therapist had recommended we stop (how to deal with tantrums etc), his response was always “well you do it to”, like so not the point?! Tell me if I do?

I also got to the point where I just didn’t want to bring anything up because he was defensive and always “too tired” to have a conversation. But bottling it up doesn’t work long term. We did/are still working with a marriage counselor and I think when we practice the things we worked on with them, it is SO MUCH BETTER. But we are struggling to turn this into lasting changes. It’s not helped with DH thinking brushing things under the carpet is fine, his family recently all called out how incredibly conflict averse he is and I think that’s a big part of it. He wants the uncomfortable bit to just go away and move on.

I know! All your arguments will now come down to - she's a woman so she's allowed to be nasty because being a woman she must be a victim. And if someone gets fed up with your narrative and becomes sarcastic then it's not simply that, its something else! They must be oppressing you because you're a woman! Even tho I'm also a woman. But it's fashionable way of thinking and manipulating conversations so that makes it OK I guess.

To OP I will give the same advice I gave to my unorganised female cousin in similar situation regarding her male overfunctioner husband. He has right to be fed up, he can communicate, work on things, go to counselling etc. He should NOT become toxic and passive aggressive in front of children on daily basis. It's abusive. No excuse for adult to behave like that, male or female. And if it can't be changed then separation is next step and getting children out of that mess before they become damaged.

We have a lot of stresses in our lives, she has more than her fair share. It's not easy for her.

This is a very kind and empathetic statement where I feel you might be edging into understanding why she is the way she is right now and perhaps putting your finger on a solution (or at least something to help).

I'd love for you to expand more on this now - are any of these stresses things that you can sit down and discuss how to improve this together? If money is an issue, can either of you get a better paying job, can she go full time? If there is something else, can you help there, or take something off her plate so she's more able to cope eg. visiting ill parents, you pick up some of "her" jobs so she has space free to do that.

when it’s not your “turn” to cook then what you really want is for the person whose turn it is to just get on with it without seeking input/advice/instruction/reassurance

He chose pasta. He served it, and she said "pasta again"

I'm getting the feeling that if he decided what to make without asking her, he'd still be doing the wrong thing.

He chose pasta. He served it, and she said "pasta again"

I'm getting the feeling that if he decided what to make without asking her, he'd still be doing the wrong thing.

He didn’t. The first thing he did was ask her to decide what he should cook. I’d bet diamonds he asks that most times he cooks, and that she doesn’t ask him to decide when she cooks. I bet he thinks it’s kind and considerate whereas it’s actually just annoying her. She said she “didn’t know” - which is 100% on her - she should have communicated better but her should have picked up on it. Then he asked her again to make a decision about pasta - again she didn’t communicate very well - ”if there is nothing better” - is that what she meant - absolutely not - it means “no, make something better ffs” but that’s what happens when you are done with having to point out the bleeding obvious. Maybe they are both awful communicators (probably) but I’m working in the assumption that not long ago the OPs wife was a perfectly pleasant woman who was nice to him and now she’s permanently pissed off. She’s not fundamentally awful or he would say “help- I’ve accidentally married someone deeply unpleasant “ - something is wrong and it’s interesting that the only 2 examples he gave of her snappiness was when she was given the job of making decisions. One of her arsey comments is literally “your dad didn’t suggest anywhere”. Thats what she’s pissed off about - “Your dad didn’t suggest anywhere”. She didn’t say “mines not that great either” or “I read a great review but it’s not that nice” or “stop moaning” or “my food is good” or “I think it’s nicer than Nando’s”m or “don’t be so bloody spoiled”, or any of the millions of things she could have said. She said what was bothering her but no fucker was listening.
Anyway the OP can test the theory by picking a couple of 20min healthy family meals from bbcgoodfood and cooking them and presenting them without mithering her for reassurance. Or he can keep on asking her what she wants him to cook. Or he could try having a grown up conversation about wtf is going on when they aren’t tired and cross.