I love him but I'm losing faith

[gingerandpeppermint]

I'm 30 years old, my boyfriend 28.

We hit two years last month and it has been the best relationship I've ever had. He is everything I've ever wanted; my best friend, funny, attractive, attentive, truth worthy, patient, kind, loving and so much more. I have never had a relationship this long so unsure if this would be classed as red flag or rough patch.

My boyfriend lives with his family. There's 5 of them altogether. The youngest being 24. They seem unhealthily bonded whereby the mom still does the washing, dishes and basically everything else for them. They are all close-knit and even speak daily on a group chat even though they see eachother everyday.
My boyfriend is actually extremely self sufficient though, sorting out our holidays, plans and will cook and clean extremely well voluntarily when hes over at my place, he has had jobs in management too and has had a goal to get a nice house.
The issue is he hasn't mentioned once about moving in together (I've lived alone for 3yrs). I have a tiny studio and must confess, it wouldn't be ideal for either of us to share it as it is far too small. He says he is saving for us to get a house but states he wants to get married first (did I mention were not even engaged?). All of my friends believed he would have asked me to marry him by now as we are so fond of eachother and have been in love from basically the first month we met..I believe with my heart that he loves me and he accidentally opened a section in his phone notes a year ago where he had our wedding guest list, songs, ideas etc and was embarrassed to admit that he often writes stuff in it for our wedding day..

A few months before our 2nd Yr anniversary he phoned me whilst on a stag do and a friend in the back asked if he could be my boyfriends best man to which, shockingly my boyfriend said "haha wowwww, definitely NOT thinking of that, slow down!!!!". After confronting him later that evening I questioned if he'd even thought about engagement to which he said "1000% but not for a few years".
Ultimately this has been on the back of my head for the last 6 months and I've cried intermittently feeling like I've been somewhat lead on but my boyfriend constantly disputes this. He says had an extremely stressful 2 years at work, savings for around 10 years which he wants to fork out well, a very thorough social life and that I'm his first serious relationship and that he isn't sure what move to make next and when he should do these things...

I have been fine knowing he refers to me as his wife and future mother to his kids(we talk about this constantly and he recently stated he wants to have a baby with me).. but seeing as were past 2 years I've begun to lose faith in us and have urges to succumb to my old life of travelling, writing and everything I've put off thinking we would be striving to focus on one another financially.

I don't want to lose him or to end us and just need to know that fighting for this is the right thing to do

I think 28 is young these days, for a male to be thinking about marriage. And it could be that he changes his mind and never wants to get married.
You should be living your life now, not waiting for a life that might or might not happen.
If he told you that he never wanted to get married, would you end it or accept that to be with him you’ll never get married?

I don’t know, it would be beginning to annoy me too. I met my husband at 27 and he was 29 and we had a baby 2.5 years later.

next time he calls you future wifey or mother of his kids, joke back and say oh yeah where’s my ring? Or not sure I’m your wife until after the wedding darling, what date is that again? I wouldn’t be happy with the idea of it until he’s going to follow through and he needs to know that

The married bit I get but It's the babies bit for you that's
More Concerning.

I watched a Ted talk recently and they said
By 40 women only have a 2% chance of conceiving naturally so time isn't on our side. I think they meant with
Out using drugs such as clomid rather than ivf etc but still.

Maybe do some research and talk to him about that if he wants kids with you.

Two years would be pretty quick for me too.

I've had two fabulous relationships that fell apart at the three year mark so I'm cautious.

He's clearly committed to you. Makes no secret of his plans. You have a great time but I think he just wants what his parents have - a home and a marriage that stands the test of time. What's the rush? You're young yet that you have time for children.

Why not take a more practical approach? Ask him how much you'll need for a house deposit? Talk about what you can contribute and when. Or you could just propose, yourself, but if he isn't ready, he'll likely stall for time and that would be awkward.

He's future faking - he has it all at the moment so why change things?

@HeBeaverandSheBeaver according to the NHS, under 40, women have an 80% chance of conceiving naturally within 12 months, so the OP has a decade yet.

After 2 years I would expect you to be having chats about moving in together.

The big time bomb is your fertility which drops off a cliff mid 30s. It's all well and good saying he's saving up for a house and that he wants to be married before you move in but realistically that could take years. I had to have this chat with my then BF when I was in my early 30s, we were living together. I said if we want DC we were going to have to get on with it. He proposed a month later, married the next year, DC1 the year after that, then we bought our first house (I was 36), had DC2 at 37.

If you want DC you need to talk with him as his timeline of saving for a house first, then getting married might not work.

If he doesn't sound keen on DC but it's what you want, you need to break up now to give you a chance to meet someone else.

BTW, I had 4 miscarriages whilst trying to have babies so you do need to factor in that conception and keeping the baby to term is not always straightforward so you need to factor time in for that

@Pipsquiggle can we stop with the ‘fertility drops off a cliff at 35’ rubbish? It isn’t true.
women shouldn’t be being terrified into having babies with unsuitable men. I’m sorry you had trouble TTC but it doesn’t mean the OP will.

@Piggled there are literally hundreds of studies from around the world about how age affects female fertility. Yes women can have babies at 40 but it doesn't make the facts go away. We only have a finite number of eggs which deteriorate in quality over time.

My own story is I had 1mc (I was 34) before DC1 and then I had 3mc (when I was 36) before I got pregnant with DC2.

Physiologically, women's prime to have babies is late teens / early 20s - this hasn't changed over thousands of years.

If I was 30 and had been with someone for two years, I would expect to start talking about the next step (getting engaged or moving in together or something). Is he prepared to at least discuss a timeline?

This is a tricky one op because I agree with PPS that two years is quite a short time to know someone, especially if you haven't ever lived with them.

For example, how will his close relationship work with his family when he doesn't live with them and also when he has to do his own laundry?

I'd be concerned that he had never stood on his own two feet or lived alone tbh.

Also, your op comes across like he is in charge but you get to have a choice too and it isn't as easy to have babies the longer you leave it.

You might also want a year or so together before babies.

On balance, seeing as the relationship is so good, I would go out for a long walk with him somewhere quiet and have a discussion and make
"I" statements letting him know that you are ready to commit and you appreciate he needs more time but you won't be waiting around forever, nor will your fertility, and if he is not ready after a year then you will be going "travelling".

@Piggled here is more blurb from a UK site

https://www.emmasdiary.co.uk/getting-pregnant/how-to-get-pregnant/how-does-age-affect-fertility-and-pregnancy

Look I know women in the UK are having babies at an older age, medical science has a lot to do with that. That doesn't mean that fertility rates don't drop. Women and men need to be aware of this

I don't think you're wrong to feel how you do, but I think 2 years is soon to be planning the rest of your life. I think people rush and there's no need, you're both young.
DH and I dated for three years then moved in together and got married 4 months later. The marriage wasn't planned when we moved in, but felt natural so we went with it. Babies followed another 3 years later.
I think it's good to have space and enjoy solo interests and have alone time when dating.
If he's living alone and saving, the future is more secure from a financial point of view. If his friends are teasing him about marriage he's discussed it. I think that's pretty huge for a man in his 20s. I'd say don't pressure him, you have ages and if the relationship is happy then enjoy it for what it is now and allow the future to develop.

Don't get pregnant if you want to get married, as it sounds like he is more interested in having a baby than marrying right now.

It's not that I'm old-fashioned, but it means you'll have less money, time, energy and less motivation to do it after a baby.

I never said age isn’t a factor, I said it doesn’t drop off a cliff, and it doesn’t. You have an 82% chance of conceiving naturally within a year up to age 40. You can quote as much research as you like at me - it isn’t helpful that this narrative is constantly
pushed on women. It results in bad choices of partners. Again, I’m sorry it was hard for you but it doesn’t mean it will be for the OP.

OP - honestly I would live your life how you want it and centralise yourself rather than him and the ‘what if’ of marriage. You’re still young. If he still hasn’t proposed in a year or so I would start thinking about your options. I don’t think it’s that he doesn’t want to necessarily but I think he probably just sees a proposal as extra financial pressure at this time, and he has you ‘locked down’ anyway, so to speak and is secure in the knowledge you’re not going anywhere.

Btw, I hate to say this, but I know someone who called his ex girlfriend his future wife and mother of his children, before they broke up. He was sincere about it too. There were challenging cultural differences at play there between the two families but in vino veritas. I think I would want to have a rough idea of what timeline is in his head when he says he is not ready yet. If he says five, then you have your answer and you can react accordingly.

Has he ever lived independently? Did he go away for uni or has he always lived at home? If it is the latter then this is all he knows but I would be worried that his Mum still does his laundry and all the housework considering she has adult children. I was a sahm and I made sure my own children could and did do household chores so that when they went to uni it wasn't a new concept for them.

I think you need an honest sit down talk. I would never marry someone I had not lived with first. My Mum was devout Catholic and married my Dad in the 1960s, had they lived together before marriage I don't think she would have ever married him because he frustrated the hell out of her with how messy he was. He cooked and used every pot, pan, utensil going and no dishwasher.

You need to talk about where you see yourself too in this relationship. This isn't 100 years ago with women waiting for a proposal. It should be a sit down discussion of if you both want marriage and the time frame for that marriage, moving in together probably rent somewhere first etc.

I know fertility has been mentioned given your age. I did not know that I had fertility issues, we weren't even trying for a baby, just living a great life when I has some medical issues and was diagnosed with endometriosis.

@Piggled
I actually think we are more in agreement than not. Women do have to factor in their age if they want DC.
So many threads on MN where men string women along saying they want DC eventually. They then break up in their late 30s /early 40s leaving it all but impossible for a woman to meet, fall in love with another man and then have DC naturally.
Meanwhile the ex has met a younger woman who then has a child.

Women should definitely be having the DC chat with their DPs in their early 30s so that they can be empowered to make decisions that is best for them.

Miscarriages are extremely common. Mine were 'text book' uncomplicated. I have seen a 'stat' that up to 25% of pregnancies end in MC. Although it's notoriously hard to gather this data as most MCs happen in a non-medical environment

@gingerandpeppermint my strong advice is that you move in together and see how you get on

I don’t think two years is too early to be talking about or actually living together or that 28 is too young. Ask him outright what he’d like from the relationship and where he sees it going. If he’s vague then move on, don’t waste your 30’s if you’re keen to get married and have DC.

I've been with my partner 6 years, we have a 5 month old and I was lured by the thought he would've proposed by now. To be honest. It became quite a pressing issue especially couples we knew who hadn't been together as long, let alone have a child, were getting engaged. My partner was also really into wedding planning and we would talk about what theme and colour. He led me to believe he was going to propose but then it just never did. The more I pressed about it, the more I guess he felt pressured in to doing it. Marriage isn't the top goal for people anymore although I do think it's strange your partner hasn't even thought about moving in until after marriage because (sorry to say) what if your relationship changes? It often does! Surely he'd want to test the waters before making a huge jump. It's nice in some way because it seems quite old fashioned and you can tell he's really in to you. With regards to the friends situation; men will always act "hard" in front of their friends and make slight comments so don't be too hard on yourself! I personally wouldn't have a baby with someone who I hadn't lived with at least because then you get lumped in the deep end of a baby, suddenly moving in together and trying to navigate the challenges of both a newborn and your relationship changing. He might have these elaborate plans of how he wants to do stuff, but does he know what you are feeling? Maybe need to let him know! Best of luck though!

His reaction to his mate would upset me especially as you thought different, living together first would be the next step but he doesn't want that before marriage and he's thinking years ahead not anytime soon, so that's alot of trust on your behalf that he will commit eventually and by then you'd probably reaching mid 30's.
If You want this all now then he's not your guy and there's a chance he won't ever want to with you.

I really do think women should get married before having children. You have very little financial protection otherwise, so speaking as a lawyer and on the assumption the woman is or is likely to be the financially weaker party, particularly when career progression is halted due to child rearing, and long periods of time without pension contributions… I strongly advise being married before kids.

OP is only 30, she has plenty of time. But I would not be making this man the centre of my world, and I wouldn’t be making any decisions that rely on him proposing.

Fwiw I think he's future faking it too.

The best piece of advice someone ever gave me was 'listen to what people DO not what they SAY'

If he were serious about your relationship he would have done something by now to show you that instead of all the talk. Talk is cheap.

When I met DH we moved in together after 6 months and bought our first house together after 2 years. Still together and very happy 12 years later. We had DC at 39 with no issues conceiving.

I think it's time for some commitment on his part otherwise I'd be seriously considering whether I want to be strung along any longer .

You could get engaged and set a date for a year or so, he has not even shown you this commitment. I would end it and move on. I don’t think he has any intention of Doing anything, he is having his cake and eating it whilst you waste your best years on this guy.