How do DH and I go NC with his younger sibling

[ginger2026]

DH has an extremely toxic younger sister who picks arguments every time we speak to her. She lives with her mum, has now taken over many rooms in the house which she fills with junk, even drills random holes in the walls and has so much junk in her room that she now shares a bed with MIL. She is 26 and she does have aspergers/adhd but her mum refuses to seek treatment.

It was because of her condition plus the fact that MIL allowing us to live for 3 years in her home (allowed us to buy a London flat in our 20s) which made us feel like we have to repay MIL by being v nice to her. Tbh she is very needy and glues herself to MIL, every time we call MIL or even invite MIL, MIL allows her to tag along or puts her on speaker phone. Even if SIL makes her late by an hour, MIL would allow to tag along. When the other SIL visited London with her fiance and DH and I took leave to take her to Brighton, the other SIL also copied her mum's parenting technique and took her to Brighton and the first thing she did was demand to be taken to the shopping centre to buy a swimming costume even though she had 3 swimming costumes offered to her which kinda ruined the morning as obviously the whole group of 5 people had to tag along or it would be seen as 'abandonment'. My DH suggested leaving the 26 year old at the shopping centre to sort it out while we went to the beach and his other sister screamed at him for being abusive/unkind even though we all agreed that the swimming costume debacle was ridiculous, just that it is apparently the family policy to pander to this SIL. Not because of the aspergers which no one even acknowledges but just because.

Tbh SiL was quite unbearable when we lived with her and would pick fights with us at the dinner table. Thankfully she was younger then (younger than 18) and I used to 'bribe' her by buying her coca cola and treats for a peaceful life.Unfortunately she is older now and earns a bit of spare cash writing online which is great for her but means my bribes of buns from gails bakery and Rose milkshakes don't have any effect anymore, she now wants flights to southeast Asia and drops hints from time to time (we did once pay for her to fly to my home country in southeast asia for my wedding as we wanted MIL there and MIL couldn't afford it and it was another 2 for 1 offer).

I have also come to the realisation that it is MIL we are grateful to, not her. I used to encourage DH to be kind to her as I felt that it was good for DH to be close to his family.. Tbh DH's sisters have both moved abroad and barely see her or MIL, we see them a lot as we all live in London. Also I think it's bad for DH's mental health and he admitted that (he is under a lot of work stress and is in therapy for that which is paid for by his company health insurance so recognised as an essential). While we will always he grateful to MIL, I am not sure it should extend to MIL's frankly weird way of attachment parenting a 26 year old and if she wants to do that, that is not really our business but that doesn't mean we need to be shouted at over the dinner table or phone on a weekly basis. In any case I have tried my best to be nice to her for the past 9 years I have been married to DH and frankly perhaps there are limits.

I think the best thing is to go LC or NC but not really sure how to do that. I think dh would still benefit from a good relationship with his mum even though it can be a toxic dynamic but as for the SIL I am less sure. In fact us going NC may also allow MIL to realise that she is basically low contact with 3 of her children and that can't just be a coincidence. The other 2 moved away as soon as they could and barely come home. They have done this despite having no financial plan which is why the other 2 SILs are now living with their inlaws as they cannot afford to rent/had to move to their DH's home countries as a result despite being 29 and 32 respectively.

I probably would get a lot of flak about this because of the aspergers and in the past mumsnetters have advised me to be kind to her and help her be less isolated. However whatever I can isn't helping and the crux is her mum refuses to get her therapy or mental health support. That is something I or DH will never be able to change.

its really for your husband to be tying himself in knots over not you.

ultimately he decides the relationship
Mil and SIL are a package deal seemingly.

What you can do and what I’d do is just distance myself
(ie never suggest any trips outings meet ups etc) for the Brighton trip I’d have said I couldn’t get the day off work.
let him phone and talk to them… you don’t get involved.

let him see them independently and only go to the big ticket stuff.
2-5 times a year for a few hours is no big deal.

Just for clarification, when I said earlier that buying a plane ticket for SIL to attend my wedding in southeast asia (which has meant she thinks future trips are on the table and therefore is incapable of being 'bribed' with cheaper gifts) was a 2 for 1 offer, it wasn't actually an offer but it's impossible to pay for MIL and not SIL due to their siamese twins relationship (now literally the case as they share the same bed despite being on opposite scheduels; SIL has the body clock of a hamster).

MIL is so desperate for her to get human company that she would invite us to the house for lunch and then try to wake her up in advance by calling her at least 1 to 2 hours in advance. This is the only time she comes down for a meal. If we don't wait for her to eat, she gets angry and throws a tearful tantrum. She does come down on time mostly and to be fair she also has crohns which means that her mum just thinks she is on the toilet and therefore is difficult. Tbh it's rarely because of the crohns, it's usually because SIL is sleeping cos she went to sleep at 5 am.

Of course this still means SIL usually try to pick an argument with us at the dinner table.

Could we get away with that. We live literally 3 miles away. When MIL and SIL aren't abroad, it's once a week generally.

No kids though due to fertility issues so makes it easier in a way.

What do you mean could you get away with that? Who do you think is going to police it? It is for you to set boundaries for yourself about what is acceptable for you in your relationship with your MIL and SIL. They clearly have an enmeshed and co-dependent relationship, you know what the behaviour is likely to be and you won't change it. So you decide how much practical and emotional energy you are willing to expand on them and then stick to that. It is for your DH to then make the same decision for himself. Given the dynamics your DH would likely find it useful to work this through and the likely accompanying guilt and hurt with a therapist, also I don't imagine this has suddenly come to being and there are probably lots of unhealthy childhood patterns he could do with processing too.

The Brighton trip was really for Dh's other Sister.

Dh still has a sense of responsibility towards his mother and sisters as he was raised that way. His mother is basically a bohemian (low freelance income) and his father hasn't worked since DH was 2. Deposit to upsize from the flat (DH's mum had 3 kids in a 1 bed flat) to a house as well as kids expenses was funded by my MIL's wealthy father as well as very regular plane tickets to visit her home country 3 months every year. I guess Dh's grandpa was scared what would happen once he was gone as he has a 1950s view of women so raised DH to want to earn a lot of money to pay for his mother and sisters. Tbh I knew and accepted all this, DH told me v early on when we were at university that he had to earn a lot of money to fund his mother and sisters. Tbh his youngest sister was only 15 then and she was much less difficult as she spent much more time in her room

Two of the sisters have moved away from the UK (and have partners;one has a child)and DH only funded one briefly with our joint money (was only a couple of hundred here and there) 2 years back. The mum is fine for now cos her home is now fully paid off (had to remortgage due to divorce) and she now qualifies for freedom pass though she is still poor.
DH's feeling of responsibility now extends to him suggesting and paying for outings though I guess the relationship dynamic is getting too much.

It sounds really complicated.

I would (with your DH):

Have a look on the National Autistic Society website/forums for advice. You won't be the first struggling to maintain a relationship with an autistic in-law/sibling and their carer.

Go to couples' counselling with your DH. You need a plan you can both live with long term. He may benefit from some individual counselling too as he probably feels very guilty.

I think you personally need to find a way of parking your guilt. If MIL was happy to host you, not coerced, and you were a responsible house guest then what's done is done and you're out now.

Crohn's is serious though particularly if the person struggles with self-care. DH might try to check periodically his sister's attending appointments and taking medication.

"Sleeping habits of a hamster" did make me chuckle though. We've had to work so so hard to regularise my tween AuDHD daughter's sleep schedule. She might definitely be a hamster sleeper as an adult! Ironically her gerbils disturb her now 😂.

I feel like I read the other side of this on Mumsnet before, from the point of view of the adult daughter who lives at home and earns bits of money from writing, but can't work a regular job and earn enough to support herself, but is resentful of her relatives?

Maybe it is a common situation.

Have separate money for starters... Dh shouldn't be paying to keep them sweet with joint cash imo. Stay away and never visit. If dh wants to he obviously can do so. Don't risk rows by even mentioning them in your home. Mil's name was banned before we went nc. Much less stress for dh. And me too. Been over 9 years of peace. Def recommend it..

I'm my case, I'm your MIL equivalent. My DS lives with me and is socially very difficult and isolated. My other (adult) children & partners tend not to visit often, partly because of this. They live slightly further away than you are and have busy lives. I share parenting with DH, which helps.

For us, creating a contented, relaxed home for DS is what matters. The other DCs do much more phone/FB/WhatsApp communication with us and DS. It is hard for us (and we know other DCs are quietly relieved by this), but it means we all have expectations set, and life is calmer.

When we do have family get-togethers, eg, Christmas, birthday dinners etc, then these are carefully planned so that DS can participate and enjoy himself, but we are all 'on duty' during that time. These occasions are rewarding because we all share the load, but are tiring so (thankfully) brief.

Leaving social events open-ended, unplanned, away from home, not 'risk-assessed', etc, is generally going to be fraught.

Perhaps you and your DH can agree ways that you can best visit MIL/SIL, or they visit you, for an agreed period of time and agreed purpose, and you prepare thoroughly? It may seem a bit formal and militaristic, but needs must!! Ceasing contact will be hard on everyone, and you will feel guilty, particularly if you're the one to push this.

If your DH wants to see them every week that’s up to him. Make yourself busy (isn’t there a gym class or book club you want to go to that night?). Drop down to seeing them alternate weeks, then in a few months drop it down to monthly.

Ignore the “hints” about a trip to Asia, and you shouldn’t be trying to “bribe” another adult anyway - what are you bribing her to do exactly? Just ask her if she wants to do it, and if she doesn’t, carry on without her. If your DMIL says that’s abandonment, ignore her.

TW mentions CSA. I think you should take a giant step back and let your DH do what works for him and you keep letting him know if his choices are impacting on your relationship. These situations are very difficult to deal with. We have it on both sides due to CSA on one side (and undiagnosed ND and PDs) and a violent narcissist on the other side that wreaked havoc with our families. You just have to keep yourself well and encourage your DH to do the same. You do not have to spend your time in the company of people who wreak havoc on others.

We are very LC with one side, DHs side and NC with the other side. We don’t invite DH’s family over much anymore and DH visits them himself. Once in a while I’ll tag along or we will have them over for a limited time but we can’t solve their deep, deep problems and their behaviour is utterly draining. We were at a funeral weeks ago and members of the extended family were talking about them for the same reasons we struggle to deal with so these behaviours don’t go unnoticed.

I remember that post.

I was bribing her so that she would be happy..when she wasn't happy she started picking apart everything we said and then started blaming dh for not playing with her when she was 5 years old and he was 13 years old (and it was also my fault for some reason).

Dh thinks we should massively cut down contact with them both and if we do visit them, have a 7 minute rule when she starts being unpleasant. The cue to start counting is for either of us to say- how does one deal with a tough cookie and for the other to say - a tough cookie needed to be dipped in milk.

Then when the 7 minutes is up, we just get up and leave. We came, we tried but there needs to be boundaries.

Dh thinks we should massively cut down contact with them both

cool… go with what he wants and like I said just be “busy” and let him go alone too.

with LC which is what you seem to be going for you don’t just switch over it’s more of a progressive thing.
7 years ago I was going to visit an awful relative 2-4 x per month for hours now it’s 3 hours twice or three times per year with minimal texting in between. The change was gradual and she didn’t like it and there were lots of weirdness fake illnesses and drama etc but has now accepted it.

the weird tough cookie chat seems to a bit 🥴 bizarre to me but each to their own….

This sounds very complex and hard situation to navigate.
The stress and pressure on your dh must be awful for his mental health.
It's lovely he wants and has financially supported them but if it's not realistic then he needs to stop.
I doubt she would listen but your mil needs to stop enabling her dd . She won't cope when she no longer has her.
Sharing a bed at that age is not good for either of them.
I have a autistic dd who will always need a carer . But we are raising her to be as independent as she can . With a strick daily routine that involves lists for different parts of the day .
Breakfast,dressing and so on.
It works really well. She is calmer and knows what she has to do and when to do it.
Including a set bedtime and time she has to get up. Granted we started this when she was 9. So it works really well .

So? Let her be like that. She’s an adult, she can be a sour-faced cow if she wants to be. Just cut your visits short if she’s being difficult.

I’d follow your DH’s lead on this and just leave if she’s being an arse (though I’d avoid the catchphrase).

I don't think you and DH should go NC - your SiL has several challenging disabilities and your MiL is not coping that well with them but I think your DH should try to continue to support MiL but put in place some boundaries to make things better for you.
20 years ago there was not as much support for ND conditions and it looks like your MiL missed out on getting the support and guidance that might have helped her cope a bit better. Having said that she has tried her best to be a good mum to your DH and let you live with her and so on.
I do think things need to change but i don't think NC is the answer.

It's probably not NC but LC.

Dh's sister was diagnosed when she was in secondary school and her mother ignored the diagnosis hence why her school expelled her.

I cannot do anything about the disabilities, MIL refuses any advice or input..her latest idea is this sister would be her carer and she wouldn't need to go into a care home, hence Dh's sister doesn't really need to earn a living as she will just inherit a london house which will set her up for life.

Her view is that this sister is doing amazingly well. She doesn't even let us see the rooms she has destroyed.DH found out when they were away and DH was asked to do stuff around the house.

That carer situation with ASD children has happened in two generations of DH’s family it is really selfish of your MIL to put that on her DD like that. You are right this, is a lot about MIL.

if we do visit them, have a 7 minute rule when she starts being unpleasant. The cue to start counting is for either of us to say- how does one deal with a tough cookie and for the other to say - a tough cookie needed to be dipped in milk. Then when the 7 minutes is up, we just get up and leave.

@ginger2026 This little code sounds overdramatic and petty. Why can't you just say you're leaving because you don't want to be spoken to or treated so rudely? And then maybe you could try to stop being so overinvested in the lives of your inlaws -who you clearly despise-and support your DH in detaching a bit, rather than centring yourself, your feelings and your expectations in his family dynamic.

I wonder how much more stressful it makes the situation for your DH that you clearly can't hide how much you dislike his family and how disparaging you are about them because they don't match your view of success or family life. You lived with your MIL for financial reasons but when your SILs do the same, it's obviously a failing.Your MIL invited you to live in her home rent-free for three years so you could save for your own deposit but your resentment over the possibility of your SIL inheriting a London house and being "set up for life" is palpable. It doesn't sound like she's ever going to be set up for life and there will be significant challenges ahead for her and your MIL.

If you didn't want your DH using joint cash to briefly support his sister with a couple of hundred here and there, you should've told him, not used this to fuel the fire of your resentment, nor tried to bribe your younger SIL.

Maybe more focus is needed on your own life and relationship outside of your DH's family, supporting your DH with his challenging family dynamic from more of a healthy distance for you and changing the things you can change by not spending as much time with MIL and SIL because you don't have to subject yourself to this kind of behaviour if you don't want to. It's really unproductive to spend so much time and energy being judgemental and contemptuous about how your DH's family members are navigating their own lives and challenges.

I never said it was a failing that my SILs live with their in laws for financial reasons, I am just commenting that this is the price they are willing to pay to leave the family home as soon as they could, they went abroad with so little resources that the end result was that this affected their future financial security, and it is what it is.. we weren't willing to do that and so we now have the issues we have. Neither choice is better than the other.

DH is also the one who thought he needed to provide for his mother and sisters but perhaps now the reality is something we can't accept. The phrase is just to signal to each other that we both agree that it is the right time to leave.

I didn't mind dh using joint money to support his other sister. I am using this to illustrate that DH was committed to supporting his family and so was I, this was part of the deal so it is a big deal to us now that we are changing our minds as a couple.

Tbh this is DH's words, not mine - she never invited us to live with her, in fact when we moved in, she said I hope one day you would move out.

DH calls it 'squatting' for 3 years, MIL just never chased us out. We moved back and couldn't rent anywhere as I was waiting for my visa which took 8 months and then dh was in between jobs and it took a year to buy our flat, which was why it took 3 years.

Also it is MIL's view her daughter would be set up for life, not mine. I used to worry it would fall to us after MIL is gone so asked her what was her plan..MIL just says her daughter will be her carer and then that will be the solution.

If we don't wait for her to eat, she gets angry and throws a tearful tantrum. She does come down on time mostly and to be fair she also has crohns which means that her mum just thinks she is on the toilet and therefore is difficult. Tbh it's rarely because of the crohns, it's usually because SIL is sleeping cos she went to sleep at 5 am.

How do you know that? That's a terrible thing to say about someone who clearly has numerous mental and physical challenges. It can't be much fun for her living a life like this. Be interesting to hear your MIL and SIL's interpretation.

Dh's sister doesn't really need to earn a living as she will just inherit a london house which will set her up for life
This is your real issue here isn't it? 🤔