Why would I imagine something hurtful was said to me?

[loosingmy]

Some months ago a family member said something very hurtful to me. One short and very specific sentence. Now I tried to talk about it with them. They denied to have said it and got very angry at me for making that up. We both were not drunk or agitated in a way that we wouldn't know what we just said or what we just heard. It's also not about that I got something wrong or misheard. I'm convinced they said exactly that sentence and they are denying that. They are truly mad at me for wrongly accusing them because they are convinced they didn't say it.
How likely is it that I made this sentence up in my mind? Why would I do that?

Take for granted that they said it and that it was hurtful. Because you know yourself and the kind of person you are. You don’t make things up. So: she said what she said. And it was hurtful. So she meant to hurt you—or control you through hurting you.

If you said something to her it would not be with this intention.

But this relative of yours is not like you. To try to map your behavior onto hers will not make sense.

Instead you need to recognize that some people just don’t take an ethical approach to relationships. They say what they want to get what they want, when they want. They don’t bother to remember because they also don’t bother to take accountability for their words.

The narcissist’s prayer:
That never happened
I didn’t do it
If I did you deserved it

"How likely is it that I made this sentence up in my mind? Why would I do that?"

Given their reaction to you mentioning it, not at all likely. I'm inclined to think they're guilty as hell, they know they are, and are trying to wriggle out of taking responsibility for it by deflecting it back to you.

My mother used to do this, mainly to me but also to others. Sometimes she would say hurtful things to me about me, other times she’d be busy slagging off other people to me but would deny it months later. Total gaslighting. She was so convincing even though I knew I was right I began to wonder if she was genuinely forgetting what she’d said. But she wasn’t old energy for dementia and showed no other signs.

she said something to Dd once who repeated it back to me. It was a phrase no 11yo would have said, I know it came from my mother. She lied and denied it, said Dd was mentally unwell and making stuff up. Like your relative she would get angry and verbally aggressive, trying to shut the conversation down I’m sure.

I genuinely believe she was a total narcissist. I went no contact with her and life improved dramatically.

Thank you. I did stumble over that but you showed me something about it. I do understand to get angry if someone tells you they are hurt by something you allegedly said. But especially if you like that person you have the desire to understand what is going on. Instead of being concerned they were immediately enraged as if they already knew, it couldn't be a misunderstanding but me intentionally attacking them with my lie. My point of view is that two things don't fit to that. One thing is that I only said this "lie" when I was asked and the other is that I don't find any valid reasons what I would get from that.

Thank you all for sharing your own experiences and your thoughts!

I heard a saying once...it might even have been on here. It rang SO true I've never forgotten it.

"No one is angrier than a narcissist being accused of something they definitely did."

There's no such thing as unconscious gaslighting. It's very deliberate. To be gaslighting you this person has to know they said it and be trying to convince you that you imagined it.
The immediately blowing up makes it sound like this person knows perfectly well what was said. When you're falsely accused, normally the first reaction is surprise, not rage.

There's no such thing as unconscious gaslighting. It's very deliberate. To be gaslighting you this person has to know they said it and be trying to convince you that you imagined it.
The immediately blowing up makes it sound like this person knows perfectly well what was said. When you're falsely accused, normally the first reaction is surprise, not rage.

That was my understanding until I googled terms like “unconscious gaslighting” or “unintentional gaslighting”. I'm still trying to understand what that would mean. The term "gaslighting" clearly comes from the idea that someone intentionally makes someone doubt their own perception and go insane over it. That feels very familiar to my own experiences over a very long time. But I'm convinced there ist no conscious intention behind. With my relative I can see a purpose but no intention.

Yeah, the popular meaning of gaslighting seems to be evolving as it becomes more and more fashionable to accuse everyone who disagrees with you of gaslighting, which is a silly trend.
There's no possibility of it being unconscious in the strict meaning of the term.
At any rate, since according to you your relative genuinely believes he/she did not say it, it's not gaslighting. So if he/she did say it and is convinced otherwise, there's self delusion involved.

I'm always a bit torn if those psychological terms help or make it more difficult. I can only say that the original definition of gaslighting feels so familiar to my experiences. But what I'm repeating all the time – I'm convinced this person is not intentionally manipulative. Of course you are right that there's no possibility of it being unconscious in the strict meaning of the term. But I would go along that it is possible that you do it unconsciously. I would even say we all are a bit unconsciously manipulative like water finding its way. And if you are confronted with stuff you can't cope with it might get to another dimension. That's also the reason why I am very wary to judge my own thinking and behavior. - I really don't know if that makes sense.

Not everything is the result of a well thought out plan—i.e. intentional. Lots of people’s behavior is also only partially conscious or thought driven. Anger, shame, rejection, resentment all can be produced in an instant, largely without conscious thought or specific intention.

Someone who overreacts to a potentially negative or shaming fact about their own behavior may legitimately not remember the behavior but still experience the wash of fear/shame/anger that anyone does when they fear being shamed or abandoned because of something they actually did do.

But I am inclined to think that this angry person suspects that she did offend you. She recognizes that she had those negative thoughts she just didn’t think you would call her on them. If no guilty knowledge then no anger, just puzzlement.

My own perception was that with that hurtful sentence they finally said out loud what they were thinking all the time. But when I repeated it back to them – with months between – they literally clenched their fists. If it wasn't that extremely painful for myself I would actually be concerned for them for going through that.

She wants you to be frightened and think physical violence is a possibility if you don’t stop holding her accountable. The only time she’s interested in your internal world is when she using it to hurt you.

I had a cousin who once 'forgot' that he had put the blame for his dogs death on me (he left the gate open and dog got on the road, he had years of being told to be careful but was a teenager and knew better). He flat out lied and said I did it. I had no idea until years later. When I finally confronted him, he said he did not remember saying what he did. It was so ridiculous.

Another relative borrowed £1000 from me which I did even though it was very hard for me to come up with - but her kids would have been homeless if the payment was not made. A week later she had 'forgotten' I lent her the money. But I mentioned it in front of other people and she could not weasel out of it.

The point I am making is, I dont believe anyone who forgets when it is convenient to them. With one exception. If someone does lots and lots of bad things, they may not remember the specific bad thing they did that affected you. In which case, you want nothing to do with them.

A slightly distant relative of mine said something that was designed to have the maximum impact it could have had on me.
I was so upset I contacted them twice after it happened. They have completely blanked me.
It's fine - they will never be welcome in my house again and know it.
It's just sad it's had an impact on a relative I do care about.

This! @speakball is correct.

OP stop being so sentimental. You have seen this woman’s true self and its not well intentioned.

she remembers, she knows it was a shitty thing to say and was absolutely not expecting to be held accountable. The fact that you havent simply brushed it off as of no importance means that she cant keep pretending to herself that it didnt matter. Her lie that she didnt say it was a knee jerk reaction in a situation she didnt expect to find herself in. The fact that she wasnt confused or questioning is proof that it was at the back of her mind the whole time, that deep down she knew why you had backed off but was testing to see if you would do the people pleasing "Oh no, everything is fine!" thing.

You didnt keep up your side of her imaginary bargain of "Oh it will be all be fine, it was ages ago, lets pretend it didnt happen".

You wont have to worry about distancing yourself, she will distance herself from you.

I am afraid that I disagree that her behaviour isnt intentionally manipulative.

If it wasnt she would be upset or confused as she hadnt placed much importance on what she said, but she isnt. She went straight to angry denial. That says that her actions were very much at the forefront of her mind, that she suspected that this comment was the root cause of your distance and didnt like being proved correct.

I think your next steps very much depend on what was said, who said it and what kind of relationship you have/ want to have with this person.
About 17 years ago my Mum said something to me, it was about something she wanted to do and she explained why. It was very hurtful for me for various personal reasons. I was very upset and didn’t forget this conversation. A few months ago we had a bit of a quarrel over the phone and I reminded her what she said to me. She said it never happened she couldn’t said this. I’m absolutely sure she did. And my DH remembers me coming out of the kitchen being upset and he heard the part of the conversation. And tbh I was talking for ages about this afterwards.
Of course my mum doesn’t remember because it doesn’t show her in a very positive way. Who would remember something like this? But she is over 80 and there is no point, I let it slide.
So the main question, OP, is what you are going to do next? Don’t ask yourself why this person doesn’t remember, think what to do next.

And I absolutely agree with this ^

Sorry, kind of drip feeding. I should correct that picture. They clenched their fists but turned their back and walked away some steps. There was never any fear of physical violence towards me. Yes, I am frightened but it's purely verbal not physical. I don't say that's better or worse. Both is bad in its own way. Both result in being frightened. I am really frightened, like with heart in throat and night mares.
It's difficult for me to put clear intentions to behavior. Most of us are not that smart that we know the effects of our behavior and can use that intentionally. I do think you can get enraged for getting called out without realizing it yourself. You don't only lie to others but also to yourself, to protect yourself.
I wouldn't say about that specific person that they think (verbal) violence is a possibility to stop getting confronted. It just works that way and they go with it without thinking about it. I only realize myself now how it worked stopping me.

Thinking about what you and others are saying I am somehow more convinced it's not just sentimentality. It just doesn't fit. I would say they are not that smart to use their behavior intentionally. They are intelligent but not in that way. They do it because it works and wouldn't even understand why and don't want to understand.

Okay. Given what we’ve worked out so far what we do know is that she’s lying. And she’s angry about things she has said being remembered by the person it was said to. Given this. Would this be someone you would anyone you love to have to tolerate on a personal level? I’m not suggesting she be shunned by all of humanity but I’m with the New Radicals, you get what you give.

People like this female cannot do love. They can’t expect people around them to pretend they do. I think people who are like this are very harmful to be around in a personal capacity and people who have been hurt by their everyday darkness are free to live their lives as far away as they can. These people like all of us will need care in old age. But this can be provided by people who don’t share an abusive history. They can get all their needs met from people they haven’t abused.

And those of us who have been hurt can now get our trauma sorted out in peace :)

“to sort my trauma out in peace” is exactly what is on my mind. I am fully aware that getting in contact again would be as reasonable as jumping into a lion enclosure. And if I had to choose I would try the lions. But I do see a “but” - I think the bigger issue is that they can't feel loved than if they can love. But this is not my question to answer.
My question was what my part in this is. And your posts have been really helpful. Thank you for that!