Best friend has abandoned me now I have a baby

[Moomin]

This one might take a while, so bear with me!

Have been friends with a girl for 15 years now, since college and over those years we've been very close. We've both been through marriage break-ups and various relationships traumas and have been able to support one another through these times. We've always lived a fair way from one another but at the height of our friendship we thought nothing of spending every weekend toegther, one of us driving for 2 hours on a Friday to be with the other for a bit of mutual support and then back on a Sunday night.

In the past 6 years we've both remarried and are very happy in our relationships. Two years after remarrying, my friend moved back to her home town, much further away than before. Visiting was obviously cut right down, but phone calls were regular and very long.

I've always known she wasn't very keen on ever having children whereas I knew I was but it had never been a problem until it actually happened. She actually cried when I told her we were trying for a baby! One reason was that she thought out relationship would never be the same again and another was that she felt I'd be leaving her behind, making her feel isolated and somehow "freaky" for not wanting kids. She's often said that she finds the whole idea of having a baby so alien that she wonders if she's abnormal in some way. She also feel that society is against her and that having kids is the "norm" and not to is seen as strange. I only think this applies to previous generations and that these days it's actually seen as a valid stand to choose not to have children voluntarily.
Anyway, when I was pregnant she came over to visit and I was surprised how interested she seemed. When dd was born she sent a lovely pressie and always asked after her when we talked on the phone.

However, in June, when dd was 9 months, I decided to visit my friend (with dd but not dh who was working). The visit was a disaster. The whole time I was there I was made to feel that dd was somehow a nuisance, e.g. I asked to have the heating down (when dd had sweat rolling down her neck) or had to put off a walk because it clashed with dd's nap or meal, etc. At the end of the visit I broke down and said how awful they had made me feel. My friend got very upset too and apologised but admitted that she found it really hard to pretend she was interested or even tolerant of dd. She then admitted she had been diagnosed as being depressed and that she was feeling even more isolated from most people with children and the so-called "norm". When she told me that she wasn't in the least bit interested in dd I said I wasn't exactly interested in her hobbies and the details of her job, but as a friend I listened and supported her! It's like because of the way she feels about children, my views aren't valid. We made it up before I left and I let a lot of what she said about dd go, because my friend was so unhappy generally.

She didn't get in touch again until Sept, when she rang, full of the joys of spring and told me she's been offered a job half way round the world and she was moving out there after Xmas. I told her I was happy for her (which I am) but then I haven't heard from her again since then. I know she's been busy organising her move but I feel like I've - or rather dd - had to bear the brunt of her unhappiness and her rather brutal and hurtful comments. This bit makes me feel like I'm being an overprotective mum, which I'm sure she wouldn't have thought would happen, purely because she can't feel how I do about my dd. I've grown very resentful over the past month so I emailed her last week and told her just how p**ed off I was feeling and why. Not surprisingly I haven't heard back. She's going in 3 weeks. I don't want or need her friendship back, which is something a while ago I could never have imagined saying. I don't even want to talk to her after airing my views in the email. Why do I feel like this? Will I regret it when she's gone?

Spot on, sobernow. I remember thinking before I went to see her that she'd had her husband's sister and 2 kids to stay and what a nightmare she'd found it. This was niggling in the back of my mind but I cancelled it out by thinking "well, she loves me, so how could she possibly not love this little mini-me!" (I spose this is the blind arrogance of parenthood!) She admitted that she was interested in the novelty factor to begin with - a baby that I had made, that looked like me; but then the reality of dd not being a doll and needing constant care took over and irritated her.

BTW, what a hideous thing to hear about from your so-called friend. What is it about comments re children that people think can be said quite without tact and thought that they simply wouldn't dream of saying about anyone else? Imagine saying these things about a friend's mum or dad to her face!

I'm sorry to hear you and your friend have fallen out - I wonder if it would have been easier if you hadn't decided to speak your minds.

Don't you think that relationships are bound to change? Sometimes lives just don't match up for a while.

I have had friends in the past whose lives have been out of sync with mine - they haven't had children until a couple of years after me, say - and they weren't really interested in my baby and I didn't want to hear about their job, well only the news, gossip, scandal. So we drift apart and then we find ourselves drifting together again when they have children, only to find we drift apart again when I have my home to myself all day because DD's at school and I don't want someone else's toddlers running around causing mayhem..

Another example - when I lived in Australia I became very close friends with someone. We kept in touch by email regularly but the emails have gradually drifted further apart and now we barely talk once a month. But I know when we're together again we'll just pick up where we left off. I have this kind of relationship with most of my friends and my family but perhaps that's because we've never tended to live very close to each other.

Or maybe I'm odd...

Hi Moomin- I'm sorry for how your friend has treated and is treating you. Honestly, she really doesnt sound much like a true friend. A true friend will most always care for their friends children. I have a high school friend who I havent spoken to in 6 yrs. We both somewhat lost contact with each other. I decided to look her up and call her. While we were talking she ask in the middle of our conversation if she could say hi to my 2 older kids. I have always cared for her because shes always showed a special interest in my children. I realize your friend feels that she doesnt want children in her own life but its sad how she is to your dd especially. In reading your post your friend sounds as if she doesnt care about your feelings.
Its sounds like you have a one sided relationship. You share happiness and interest in your friends life but she doesnt return the same. I'm sorry and I hope the situation sorts itself out in time.

Moomin - perhaps you should phone her for closure. The problem with e-mails ( as mumsnetters often find when posting) is that the typed word often does not reflect your proper feelings and can take on a different tone from the one intended. Your friend may have been very upset by itand therefore hasn't contacted you, unsure of your response. I would phone and wish her Bon Voyage and end it there.

Moomin, I know exactly where you are coming from. About 4 college friends of both sexes dumped me when ds was born and made hurtful remarks. I am still upset about it actually, 3 yrs later, but I have now got new friends, who either are parents too or who like children. I think that when they eventually have their own children, those former friends may start to understand, but I can't really wait around putting up with rude and insensitive behaviour for several years. It is childish of me, but in my mind I know exactly which friends were good to me when I was vulnerable with a little baby, and which friends ignored and disrespected me. When I hear that someone who was good to me is pregnant, I offer her my full support, advice, and practical help and I go and visit. When I hear that someone who dumped me is finally pregnant, I just say, "Congratulations. It is hard work being a mother, but I find it very fulfilling," and get off the phone asap. Perhaps it is also true that when I choose new friends now, I pick kinder friends, rather than cooler friends.

I had a friend who I really expected to be excited for me when she heard that I was pregnant. I knew that she was having bad conversations about kids with her fiance (she wanted, he didn't), but I really expected her to be able to be excited for me. When I 'phoned her, I got a really monotonous 'Oh, that's good isn't it'. She did not ask one question about when it was due etc, and I ended the conversation feeling really hurt. I avoided her calls after that, because she would only give me a cursory 'how are you feeling' before launching into her problems.

I do miss her friendship in one way, and her dh happens to be my dh's best friend, so it has been a bit awkward. I am always friendly when I do have to see her, but it is obvious that she thinks she is the wounded party! If she had ever stopped to ask if she had upset me, or said how sad she was at not seeing me, then I would have told her why, and would have loved to be her friend again, but she was too self interested to do this.

I have composed long letters to her, explaining how I feel, but have never sent them. I have lately been thinknig about making tentative moves to become friendly again, but part of me can't forgive her. Having said that, although she was always a 'high maintenance' friend, she was also very generous in other (not monetary) ways, and could be great fun. She did have problems, and part of me felt bad at dropping her.

Anyway, I suppose I am saying that your friend might have had issues other than not being interested in your dd, maybe she was jealous but didn't want you to know. People can be very hurtful when they feel jealous. I know you say that she didn't want children, but I think that most people have a period of time when they question that decision, especially if their friends have children. She might just have been jealous that you were settled in a new life, and had other things to worry about than her.

SueW has a good point. I felt at the time I was visiting my friend and also when I was discussing it with dh that really, there was no need for her to have been so brutally honest. A lot of people would maintain that honesty is absolutely necessary in a relationship but as time goes on, I can't see that ALWAYS letting someone know how you're feeling is better at times.

Dh would be mortified if I'd told him what I thought of him at times when I felt stressed, or hormonal or just generally p*ed off with my lot. I've learned to button my lip, see it through and see if the feeling lasts. It inevitably doesn't. If it did, with someone as important as dh, then we'd deal with it. With a friendship such as the one I've detailed below, obviously her feelings towards dd (and me) aren't going to change, but as we don't live with one another, or have regular contact in person, surely it's worth swallowing a bit of annoyance or other harmful feelings in order to preserve the good parts of the relationship? It always seems to me that people who feel they need to purge themselves so that they can say "well, I'm being honest" at the expense of someone else's feelings is actually being selfish. I'd be interested to hear what others think - is honesty always the best policy?
(Hey I felt like Carrie in Sex in the City then, with that question...i wish!)

Sorry Chinchilla, I must have been posting at the same time as you so I missed your message. Before I actually had dd, my friend and I talked at some length about how she felt about having children. Part of her condition, which is a kind of manic depression but with smaller peaks and troughs, is that she's always been looking for something to make her happy and has always in the past been able to blame other, external factors: bad marriage, unhappy in job, stress in moving house, etc. Over the past 2 years she's been in what could only be described as a dream job, fantastic husband, beautiful house and yet she's as unhappy as ever. I realise it must be terrible to have to accept that your own body/mind is working against you. I do think maybe she looks at me and how happy I am with less than a quarter of the trappings she has and she finds it very hard to accept that dd has brought me and dh much of that happiness. It's easier maybe to cut me off, dismiss me of one of "joe public" who is somehow less intelligent than accept my decisions and lifestyle. But I can't think of one other thing I could have told her that would change my life drastically that she wouldn't have been delighted and supportive of - except having a baby, of course.

Moomin, completely agree with you about the honesty thing - no, it's not always the best policy but people often feel they are being virtuous by being honest and it's not always that way is it? ( at S&TC BTW) I've realised that I only have a few childless friends left and some have fallen by the wayside along the way because our lives are just so different and seem somehow incompatible. Agree with Cityfreak about kinder rather than cooler (or longstanding) friends. Having children just does change it all and if someone isn't prepared to accept that then it does make a friendship hard sometimes. It doesn't sound to me as if you will regret the end of this friendship ultimately, even if it seems hard now.

I can understand a bit where your friend is coming from Moomin. I had a very good friend who had an accidental pregnancy 4 years ago. Before that our friendship had been mainly based on going out and drinking copius quantities of wine together. She obviously had to stop this when she became pregnant, and I have to admit that I found that she was no longer as much fun as she was before. I never told her this (which I think was the very cruel thing that your friend did) but I did find endless descriptions of morning sickness and then baby poo terminally boring. I tried to support her, but I think she realised that I wasn't as consumed by her pregnancy as she was. I met her little boy twice in the first two years of his life (we had previously seen each other at least twice a month). Then I got pregnant, and realised how she had felt before. We have now rekindled our relationship and are very good friends again. We go out, have our wine and talk about how wonderful/horrible motherhood is depending on the day.
I didn't want to not become interested in my friend, or her baby, but I did. People change, and if you don't change at the same time, you outgrow each other.
I do think your friends honesty was really the problem. But if you can, try to forgive her - it's a shame to let a previously good relationship die on such a bad note. I would call her, and say that you were/are really upset by her attitude, but you still remeber how great your friendship used to be, and hope taht you might be able to sort things out in the future if and when she returns. You might find that she does end up having kids one day, and with the return of shared ground your relationship can be as close as ever.

It sounds to me like she felt threatened. Maybe she felt as if she was losing your friendship, as you now had someone else consuming your time and energy. I lost a lot of my friends when I was suffering from depression and I understand how difficult it can be. Depression isn't a rational thing, and maybe she doesn't even know why she feels the way she does. I agree with what you're saying about honesty, been there, done that!

I agree with whoever said you should phone her. Just to clear the air, part on good terms if nothing else. Maybe then, at the very least, you will get some 'closure' (oh how I hate that term) on the situation. HTH

I have unfortunately suffered with friends becoming different after my baby. To be really honest, it is probably due to us becoming baby bores to a certain extent and a weeny bit of biological anxieties on our friends'.

I have had so much to do and so many difficulties totally alien to me pre-childbirth that I ceased to care about their friendships. I also stopped worrying about or analyzing the perceived tensions in my friendships with them. It does seem harsh and a number of these friendships have been longstanding but life is hard enough without having to chase people to explain your love for your child. Don't forget this is a love totally alien to a child-less person and you shouldn't have to apologise to people for not being interesting or cool anymore.

Perhaps my attitude cut me off from people i previously socialised with a lot, but no regrets. I have met kinder, duller, more useful people with children who I enjoy the company of.

My advice is to move on, I certainly wouldn't waste time and emotion explaining myself to someone who is moving across the globe and did not appreciate my wonderful bundle as much as I do!!

Moomin - like many here I can really sympathise and empathise with you on this one. I lost a very dear friend and feel deeply hurt by it still - almost 2 years later. When I fell pregnant I was (naively) surprised and a little hurt by her coolness. She didn?t even give me a card when dd was born and has visited us only once since the birth.

If your friend has been really depressed it may not excuse her recent behaviour to you but could go a little way to explaining it. Depression has a terrible habit of making sufferers very self centred in a completely consuming way - they are so caught up in their own feelings and emotions that it becomes very hard to think about/consider/react to anyone else?s needs or feelings. From my experience (having lived with someone who suffered from acute depression) a sufferer can have huge mood swings and be outwardly very upbeat and self confident when really the veneer is quite thin. Her new job offer could be enough to get her sounding and thinking like she is back on her feet but not ok enough to deal with and confront bigger problems.

What I am trying to say is that while I understand if you close the door and stop letting it upset you, by sending her a short email every few weeks you may just keep the door open enough for her to pick up if she finds herself ready to deal with it and sort it out (i.e. apologise and mend bridges). If you get nowhere at least you have the satisfaction of knowing that you gave the relationship all you?ve got (unlike me unfortunately).

chinchilla, I'm sorry you lost a friend because she wasn't enthusiastic enough about your pregnancy. If, however, she was having her own difficulties about trying to have children, then I would find her reaction quite understandable.
During the worst times when I was trying and failing to conceive, I was quite incapable of being at all enthusiastic about friends pregnancies. I would dread the Christmas card season with its clutch of new pregnancy announcements, each of which would have me sobbing and consumed in jealousy and bitterness. I would do my best to smile and congratulate if someone told me face to face, but most of my effort would be taken up with trying not to start crying, so I'm not sure just how enthusiastic I would have come across. I hope those people have forgiven me for failing to demonstrate enough interest in their pregnancies and babies.

I didn't enjoy feeling like this, and yes I was much too absorbed in my own feelings. But now I'm completely absorbed in being a mother and with my wonderful ds - and can quite see that what is important to me right now is somewhat tedious to others, especially those without children, and may even be painful for some. I suppose maintaining friendships when life courses diverge is about the overall balance between give and take over the lifetime of a friendship -life would be very boring if we only managed to keep hold of friends who were going through the same life stage as us at the same time.

elliott, just wanted to say what a lovely eloquent post.

Elliott - Yes, a very eloquent post, but somehow you have made me out to be a bad person for dropping a friend in need. I did post a compose a long reply to this, but pressed 'escape' in error and lost it, which is probably as well, as it was very emotional.

As I can't be bothered to rewrite it, I will just tell you that this friend had used me as a shoulder to cry on for a long time, when I was suffering from a long depression, and had never shown any consideration in this. She also managed shortly before to be ecstatically happy for another freind who had fallen pregnant. The only difference I could see in the situations was that the other friend had confided in her about the pregnancy, whereas I had waited until after the scan, as I was terrified about there being a problem.

Finally, I sympathise with you about how you felt when other friends fell pregnant. Been there, done that. However, I still managed to be happy for another friend who fell pregnant in the depths of my depression. Of course I cried when I came off the 'phone, but that was for me, and I could distinguish the difference between my pleasure for her and my hopes for me. I don't drop friends who are at different life stages to me, as I can't afford to do that. No, I drop friends who have proved themselves not worth friendship, after many months of deliberation and heartache on my part. In fact, my dh told me that she was not a good friend a long time before I believed it myself. So please do not presume to know me based on a posting that was there to support another Mumsnetter in her problems.

Totally agree, Chinchilla

Basically, BF of 17 years, not very interested in pregnancy, birth and beyond. So much so, in fact, that she did not show up at DS' 1st b/d party and has since neglected to give any kind of explanation, despite having seen me at the hairdressers a few weeks ago and not saying anything!

I have given up on her friendhsip as I did not feel that she had proved herself to be a true friend. And, yes, I had given her a number of chances for past errors, that other people had dropped them for.

Needless to say, I would tell you to concentrate on those friends that are real, Moomin.

Sorry if I sound a little bitter at the mo, but this is all still very recent for me.

P.S - Also agreed about the jealousy re conceiving. A real frined would cry behind closed doors and give their pregnant friend all the support and congratulations they could!

Have you never thought Moomin that you might have been boring your friend to death, going on and on about your child? I mean, why do we expect our childless friends to care. Why do we have to prove to them how cute/clever/wonderful our kids are? And be so outraged when they are nonplussed. Other people's children, even if you have your own but particuarly if you don't any, are incredibly snoresome. Get a babysitter and meet up with your friend on your own. MIght do you good to be with grown ups and talk about something other than your DD.

Blimey Badmamma - hope that your post was meant tongue in cheek!

Moomin - I do agree in one way. I spent a while thinking about this thread a few days ago, and was going to suggest that you try to go out just by yourselves, without any baby baggage. I do this with my sister one every two to three weeks. Although she says that she loves hearing about ds, (as he is her nephew after all! ), I try not to talk about him a lot. I have a 'me' night and just have fun. It does me the power of good.

The other point I wanted to respond to is your one about her depression. I know from experience about depressed people thinking that 'if only I did a/b/c, my life would be better'. I thought that I was depressed because dh (then dp) didn't believe in marriage. I then got married to him after a long bout of discussions etc, and realised that I was still depressed! It must be hard, as you said, for her to get everything she wanted in life and still be depressed, whilst you are happy with 'only' having a child.

It is sad that you have both been able to support each other through some really hard times without being able to make it through this one. Sometimes though, friendships outgrow each other. I do think that a really supportive friend would have been there for you, but can also see that us mums could sometimes come across as baby bores! Why don't you just let her know before she goes away that you will always be there for her, and that you would love to hear how she is getting on while away. Then you could leave the ball in her court. If she never gets in touch again, then you know the answer, and it will be her loss...

Onadowner - sorry you are sad, and thanks for the supporting comment, it made me feel better.

No I was serious. I mean Onadowner is moaning that her friend didn t come to her ds's birthday party. But who would want to go to a kids party unless they had to. Why did she invite her, really? It is about getting people to coo over your children and affirm your wonderfulness for having given birth. I cannot blame her for being in the hairdressers. Who wouldn t rather spend their weekend doing that.

You have to learn to forgive people for not being mad about kids. Not everyone is. But it doesn t mean they lack value as friends.

And frankly the sort of women who can only talk about their children are dull company anyway, even if you are a parent yourself. And then they wonder why their friends avoid them and their husbands don't want to shag them.

Badmamma

The thing about friendships is that it's not about interesting conversations all the time. It is about support and telling you that you are a bore and how to make yourself shaggable again - Friends who don't have children are an opportunity for the duller ones of us out there to re-connect with the world outside nappies, feeds, nurseries etc.

I wouldn't expect non-child orientated friends to attend birthday parties, infact never invited them, but you do expect normal human concern about what is a life-changing event for you, good or bad.

Where does this thing about husbands not wanting to shag them come from? Was this mentionned on this thread?? I thought this thread was about women feeling sorry that their friends were not able to feel something for their children when they had previously had such strong relationships with them.

I hope that your comment is not having a dig at my posting on another thread, as I can assure you that my dh does not find me boring. Any 'problems' we may have in that area are not because I am a baby bore, more a weight issue. In fact, he has told me that I talk about our child less than anyone else he knows with children. I also post on a lot of non-baby threads here. What with you and Elliott, I don't think that I am having a good posting day here. However, I am not going off in a huff, so I'm afraid that you will have to put up with me, or go onto another less baby orientated site!

I'm going to assume that you were not referring to me, as I cannot see what I can have said to irritate you. First comes paranoia, then the abyss...

Part of me just wants to ignore badmamma's comments because it doesn't look like she's read the whole thread and is obviously only interested in throwing contentious statements. I do find it extremely annoying for someone to assume that just because I've got a baby and a relationship has broken down it's because I'm some sort of child-obsessed bore who can only see the world through my own eyes and is incapable of sympathising or empathising with others not in my situation. I feel really angry that this sort of assumption has been made. The whole situation has been upsetting enough without someone who is talking out of their nether regions. Badmamma's the one who sounds like she's not been getting any to me