Touch and Touch

[chocolatelips]

Sorry long message .
We have a couple who we hang out with alot. My husband has known the man since childhood and they work together.His girlfriend came in the picture in last 2 years .
My husband and I are married.
When I met this couple , I noticed that my husband was very touchy with this lady.
We always hug when we meet but her hugs from my husband are long and he sometimes keeps her locked in his arms and speaks to her face while he is holding her.
I have never questioned this.
This lady and my husband chit chat frequently on social media and on her phone.

The lady recently had her mom unwell needing surgery.
My husband purposefully told me to ensure I messaged her to pass my best wishes.We also went to see her- My husband wrote a card from us that he didnt show to me, picked a bottle of wine and chocolate and we set off to see the lady and her boyfriend.I asked him why he didnt address the card to the couple rather than just the lady and his answer was that , it was the lady going through a difficult time, not her boyfriend (please note they are a couple)

While at their place, we caught up with conversations,at some point the lady was sat next to my husband, they were talking in low tones and the next thing I saw was my husband had stroking the top of her head twice.

Should I be concerned?

@chocolatelips op if you don’t sort this out before your wedding , it’s going to eat you up from inside and you’ll end up in depression . Don’t make this mistake , by the way , I’d reconsider getting married to this man , because clearly he has no boundaries on touching other woman . I’d hate hate hate it if my partner thought this type of touch was acceptable while married or in relationship .
I think you should ask your partner if it’s okay if you let a man touch your breasts in a pub on a night out or give you a massage ? If he says yes then that tells you all you need to know, he doesn’t love you the way you hoped for . Sorry OP that your husband doesn’t respect you 💐

Even if he doesn't think his behaviour is inappropriate (and it is btw) the fact that it's upsetting you ought to be enough for him to knock it on the head. I wouldn't marry someone who can't show you even that basic courtesy.

Why do you have to marry this person?
Especially given all the Red Flags.
Imagine yourself in 2 years or 1 year, do you think he will treat you better when its harder to getaway?
Or worse?
And what happens if you have children.
I know there has beena lot of organising and people will be pissed off, but for goodness sake this is your whole life we are talking about.

You wont change him.

@chocolatelips, this is outrageous. I would have blown this out of the water a long time ago. How dare he humiliate you (and his friend) with his sordid behavior.

He and this OW are having an emotional affair with inappropriate touching. There is a huge amount of attraction and intimacy flowing between them via his lingering embraces, stroking her hair, touching her thigh, overdone gifts, their cozy whispery chats, and frequent calls and messaging (which they are lying about/hiding).

I call bullshit on his claim that he is oblivious when he caresses OW. It is every bit as intentional as his pulling the married friend onto his lap and kissing the other woman at the party. He knows exactly what he’s doing, and he and OW are enjoying the buzz and gratification of drooling over each other in plain sight.

His dismissing your feelings speaks volumes about his callous disregard of you, as well as his determination to protect their inappropriate relationship and deepen their connection. Since he feels entitled to indulge in everything but intercourse, there will be (or already has been) an escalation of the intimate touching. Yes, he is also touchy with others, but he is invested in OW on a whole other level.

I am confused about your marital status, as you initially said you’re married but later spoke of your upcoming wedding. If you aren’t yet married, please reconsider. If you are already married, please consider your options. In my view, life with this man will be hell on earth. You have different views of monogamy, he is massively self-serving, and he doesn’t care that he is unsettling you and making you an object of gossip and pity.

@chocolatelips, you have boundaries and agency and choices. Heretofore you have been underreacting and explaining away his despicable actions and attitude. Get angry and draw a red line. You don’t have to tolerate or stay with this horrible faithless player who thrives on romancing his friend’s GF and crossing lines with other women. I would kick him to the curb asap.

chocolatelips

Would you mind clarifying, you've referred to him as your husband but also talk about your forthcoming wedding celebration and who has been chosen to do the music.

Is this a very recent wedding or have you called him your husband as shorthand? It only really matters becaise it's easier to extricate yourself if you're not actually married yet.

Personally, I don't think there is much point in talking to him again. You've already done that and he's given you his answer.

He has an emotional (at least) connection with this woman and he is prioritising that over his relationship with you and he's prioritising his feelings towards her over you.

I would be ending the relationship for a couple of reasons. When it is no longer her, it will he someone else; they might already be having a physical affair; I agree with a pp who has said she is colluding with him (pretending she doesn't have his phone number so now, if you telling anyone about what is happening, you will look like the one in the.wrong); I agree that he has told her of your conversation with him (otherwise, establishing her narrative wouldn't have been neceesary); his loyalty is to her and not you.

This is no way to start married life - already doubting your husband's fidelity (and with good reason) and already feeling this way.

Ultimatums are largely pointless. If someone cares enough about you, they are unnecessary. If someone doesn't care enough about you, they make no difference. He will continue to keep doing this. The best you could hope for is that he will hide it from you.

The card only addressed to her isn’t an issue, but everything else is. I’d have a serious word with your husband and if he continues this inappropriate behaviour, I’d reconsider the relationship.

I also know that you'll read all the advice here and your desire to save the relationship will be strong.

Largely because, if you end it over this, there will be a sense of her having 'won' and your instinct will be that you can't let that happen.

If there is any part of you that feels like this, from experience, I can tell you that the reality is that you feel stronger for having walked away. Taking back control of your own life and making the right decisions for yourself (however hard they feel at the time) is actually really empowering. What they might or might not be doing or saying with you out of the picture becomes completely irrelevant because the peace you then have overshadows all of it.

Everytime someone asks on here if anyone has ever regretted splitting up with someone who is treating them disrespectfully, the overwhelming response is that the only regret is that they didn't do it sooner and let an untenable situation continue for so long.

I feel for you it's a horrible situation and it's horrible to feel powerless in it. I would focus on taking back the power and being free of it rather than trying to take back the power and stop him. Because the latter won't work. He's told you who he is.

@chocolatelips You've posted several threads about your partner and you don't like him having any contact with any women in his life. A life long female friend sat on his lap briefly at a party and he kissed the mum of a friend (in her 60s), both threads on this mostly thought you were unreasonable.

Now this. He either doesn't see its a problem because it's innocent, he doesn't respect you or you are making a big deal of every movement he makes near another women because you have trust issues.

You clearly don't trust him. He is touchy with other women. If you can't handle that and don't trust him then you need to leave him.

OP, this is who he is.
If not her it will be someone else.
Most women have met men like your husband, through work or socially.
They are "handy".
Always touching some woman "innocently".
They are creepy sleazes and women always know it.
He doesn't care a whit for you or your upset.
He's all wrapped up in his little ego and his creepiness.
This is a YOU problem that he has to "endure", but actually he really relishes upsetting you and probably discussing your "jealousy issues".
He has zero loyalty to you.

This is your life until you decide otherwise.
I sure as shit wouldn't marry or celebrate an anniversay of marrying such a creepy letch.

@FoxtrotOscarKindaDay
I am neither insecure nor distrustful.I am just stating facts and asking for advice to help me make a decision because I am not sure anymore what is regarded as an overstepped boundary in the world we live in.
I hate confrontations and arguments and this is why before speaking to him, I had to check that it's abnormal for a married man to have another woman sit on his lap.

It's also not easy to watch him being so open and touchy when he has already managed to pick up an STD before I met him.

I am not sure anymore what is regarded as an overstepped boundary in the world we live in

OK. Firstly, there are no 'universal' boundaries. They are all personal and everyone's will be slightly different.

You don't need to tolerate anything just because you think someone else might!

Secondly, I'm going to share with you what my relationship looks like in this respect. Some would think it fine. Others would not. But since you asked more in general terms, it might help to read it.

My partner is a very tactile person and a big hugger. I wouldn't describe him as flirty but he does have a couple of very longstanding, comfortable friendships with the wives of even longer standing friends and, whilst he doesn't 'flirt' with them, he is sometimes a bit 'flritarious' around them sometimes, but it's all done in jest and not at all 'inappropriate'. If that makes sense? It's just part of their friendship and not at all 'intimate'. There's no meaning or intent behind any of it and it never makes anyone feel uncomfortable.

He always greets his close friends (male and female and mine too!) with a big hug and a kiss on the cheek, all of his friends do. Before we got together, there were a couple of the female friends that he would give a peck on the lips to. Again, it wasn't 'intimate' but he's not done it since we got together. Not because I said anything but because thats clearly his boundary.

But it was still not inappropriate. Their husbands and he were also great friends. It's just how they were/are. I know he messages at least one of his female friends frequently because I see her name on his WA. But I have absolutely zero concerns. He's said they talk about films and books. I wouldn't know - I've never looked and feel no need to.

I can imagine that this friend might sit on his knees in a, "There's nowhere to sit so I'm perching here," kind of way. But there is absolutely no way that he would allow another woman to sit on his lap properly, stroke her hair or talk to her face whilst he's holding her. That's just far too intimate.

I'm not a 'cool wife' in any sense! But none of those interactions have ever felt disrespectful. The dynamics between him and them, and them and me are totally different to you describe. I have no problems with affection being expressed physically. He's far more tactile than I am though!

For additional context, there was a woman, actually a mutual friend of both of ours who did start to behave inappropriately around him. Because his boundaries are slightly different to mine, he didn't initially realise that he was just being himself but the dynamics, and intent on her part, were different and that she was being more 'intimate' towards him in her behaviours. But he also did put boundaries in place after we'd spoken about it because he loves me. She didn't react well to that, he saw it clearly after that, and now we no longer see her.

You are not comfortable and whether anyone else would be happy or not, is irrelevant.

@chocolatelips As a PP said - you keep referring to him as your husband but also refer to your upcoming wedding. So it sounds like technically you’re not married yet. I don’t think you’ve mentioned having children. It’s unclear how long you’ve been together. These are pertinent points because it sounds like this may not be the man for you - he’s making you unhappy - and things like being married and, in particular, having shared children have a bearing on how easy it is to walk away. Would you consider walking away?

Are you actually married yet? Do you have children? This is vital information.

We are married.
No children.

The wedding celebration is just a party to have our friends celebrate our marriage.
We got married early this year so yes we are married

@chocolatelips - thanks for explaining.

You have said this:

“I can't believe I am married to a man who cannot see the problem with touching other women.I must be very unlucky and feel sorry for myself.”

This is a bad way to be feeling in any marriage and particularly so early in marriage. He’s made clear that he’s not going to change his behaviour towards other women. Is there enough else in the relationship to make you want to stay? Particularly given you don’t have children and it’s a very short marriage, you could walk away quite easily if you feel this is a dealbreaker for you.

You'll feel far less unlucky and sorry for yourself if you leave him.

Get out while you can.
Not 6 months married to a letch and he's telling you suck it up.
Surely you knew this before you married him?
Can he really have changed so much in 6 months?

"I hate confrontations and arguments"

You need to get over this and confront him and her in front of her boyfriend - his lifelong friend. Call them out on it and let the shit hit the fan.

Other than that, in a few years' time, you'll be posting on here saying your husband has run off with his best mate's girlfriend.

I agree. Start calling it out.

"So he somehow managed to accomodate his married female friend to sit on his lap and somehow obliviously kissed a 69 year old woman on her lips."

what a pervert!

This.

Do you have money/assets?

Thankyou all.I managed to tell him what my boundaries are which I hope he understands.
We are going to a wedding tomorrow of one of his friends and the couple with the touched alot Lady will be there.
I will be observant as this will be my last shot at being goaded.
Sometimes I think that left to themselves , it's possible for them to have a three some as that's how they behave.
It's disgusting.

I cannot now kiss my husbands lips without thinking of how many places they have been. I also feel odd when he touches me.The events have really damaged my sense of feeling around him😞

How did he respond?

I compeltely underatand how you feel.l

The wedding will hopefully clarify the situation and your feelings for you. I hope it goes well.

Yuck! We have a man like this in our friendship group and all the women cringe at his behaviour and call him handsy.

He definitely needs to rein it in or the other people will be talking about his behaviour.

@GreyCarpet
He was very defensive and said he was oblivious and that it doesn't mean anything to him.He said it is apparently his manner of endearment to his friends.

I told him I don't care what it means to him but the action itself was really disrespectful to me.

@JanefromLondon1 you bet.Its absolutely disgusting.
I don't and maybe will never understand how infidelity goes forgiven and forgotten.Maybe just forgiven.

Filthy people can go spread their filth elsewhere and not be bound in a relationship which keeps them clean.
That's my standpoint