I think my marriage is over...

[probateproblems]

My husband of 10 years is a great dad to our two DC. I'm the breadwinner (he's only done casual work since covid- by mutual agreement) and I work hard at a demanding job that pays a good salary. He does the cooking, housework and gets the DC ready for school in the morning. I'm close to burnout because I am sole earner and carry all the mental load. I think my husband probably has ADHD or some form of neurodiversity because he's unable to plan ahead or organise anything (but refuses to even try). I would like a nice home to relax in - but my husband would rather be outdoors. As such, our house is cluttered and chaotic (in my opinion, although not in his). We no longer have anything in common. He falls asleep with the kids so I spend every evening alone. I've given up trying to book dates/ time together because whilst he's a reasonably willing participant- it's always me driving any quality time together. Our sex life is non-existent (for various reasons). He has no drive (other than for exercise) and is extremely passive- preferring me to take the reins in organising anything. I've just learnt tonight that he's going away for a weekend (hobby related) in September with a friend. He's done 3 or 4 of these weekends away in recent years.... but organising a weekend away with me is beyond him. We had counselling Oct- Mar but i stopped paying because he just wasn't making any effort to spend time with me. He says he loves me and doesn't want to split up but I want a husband to do things with, have fun and spend time together as a couple. He just doesn't understand. I'm far from perfect and I worry that I'm expecting too much- is this just what life is like with small kids? I'm not happy and feel we are just house mates who Co-parent.... but am I going to regret calling time on our marriage? I just don't know what to do?

He's not going away 3/4 times a year- it's once a year, if that. But it's once a year more than he goes away with me. He doesn't really spend that much time with friends at all- I think he should as he has lots of friends and people enjoy his company. But he'd rather exercise. He said something interesting earlier... that he's stopped doing stuff with other people because he knows I'll take issue with the fact that he's not doing anything with me. When I pulled him up on that by saying that it would be very easily resolved/ not an issue if he just SPENT SOME TIME WITH ME, he had nothing to say. At the start of the year when we were in therapy he said he regretted not spending time as a couple and neglecting our relationship. He seemed sincere and I believed him.... and yet he's done nothing to address it since then. He's asked me to give him another chance and now he's trying to book all sorts of stuff in- but I just don't know whether I resent his lack of attention too much to get past it and enjoy myself in his company. How long do you keep flogging until you realise the horse ain't getting up any more??

@goody2shooz ... he does do most of the housework at home... but he doesn't do anything to address the clutter or better organise the home and it's still me that does the organising of any kids/ school/ holiday/ insurance stuff. It's still me that carries the responsibility for bills being paid, for remembering that kids need XYZ for school. And he's not just rubbish with me- I think he could be a better brother and sister etc. He gets away with it because he's a genuinely nice guy and people overlook it. But it's hard for me living and parenting with him because I feel I carry a disproportionate share of the worry and responsibility... but get none of the upside of a supportive partner. It's become more of a parent/ child dynamic and his passivity is a real turn off

This is good advice. ADHD or no ADHD, he clearly isn't interested in fixing the relationship. He isn't interested in getting treated, won't even admit to the possibility of him having a problem. Time isn't going to change that. Meanwhile, she is wasting her one precious life being miserable.
So she either accepts her life is going to continue to suck or she leaves him. There is no third option here.

• son (not sister)

@XChrome - that's pretty much the nail on the head.

OP, it sounds like you've checked. He's daid he wants to spend time with you next week, but you don't seem keen.

Or do you think he'll disapoint you and your guarding your feelings to protect yourself?

I'm not saying to stay in a miserable marriage, but sometimes one person in the relationship has certain strengths and tends to organise certain things, like book holidays.

Does he enjoy the time you spend together? As that's important. Or does it seem like he doesn't want to be there.

He does sound like he struggles with being organised.

@SandyY2K - if I knew with certainty that he's taken everything on board and that he'll start to make an effort to plan things in and spend time with me... then I'd give him another shot. But I've been here before and history suggests that I will be left disappointed. I don't want to put myself through that again. I don't want to turn my back on my marriage lightly but neither do I want to live in this no man's land.

When we spend time together, he enjoys it. We have a great time. We laugh, we joke, we work well together. I have always been the one to plan and book things and I don't mind doing that - but I started to notice that unless I suggested something- he would never take the initiative and organise something. Or even come up with any ideas. The main turning point for me was our 10 year anniversary last year. We've never celebrated our anniversaries (he forgot it one year) because our first child was a newborn when our first anniversary arrived and it's just been so busy with kids. But I'd been saying for 2 years that our 10th anniversary would be special- that we'd go away and have a nice time together. I knew that I'd be the one researching, booking and paying for it.... all he needed to do was show some interest and enthusiasm. But he couldn't even do that. That was when I realised that our marriage was on its last legs- he would've been getting a nice city break in a 4/5* hotel, booked and paid for by me.... and yet he never quite seemed that bothered. That's what prompted us going to therapy.

@probateproblems youve had ten years of this. Years for asking for a few crumbs of affection, a weekend away, a fair share of the mental load. He says he’ll change but actions are what counts. And if he miraculously turns into the man you actually want him to be, why has it taken so long? He won’t change - he’s been showing you who he is for ten years.

I'm not sure he's going to be able to do enough to quell your resentment now. You say he's trying, but not enough.

You say your mind is full with the things you need to do. Maybe he feels the same, have you asked?

He goes out once a year, it annoys you because he doesn't arrange anything. You've spoken so he's now tried to arrange things. But too late. And he should also go out more.

It sounds like you aren't interested in how he's wired, (and if he does have adhd like your kids potentially do, then maybe they are wired and happy to live in a way that doesn't suit you either). You've already decided.

I do think in a relationship one person tends to be the natural organiser but that only works if the other one is enthusiastic about whatever gets arranged and actually wants to spend time together.
I think I'd be more pissed off with being the full time worker and the default parent if the kids are sick and off school. He's not fulfilling the sahp 'contract'.

I know you say it would be amicable were you to separate but I think things turn nasty very easily when the person who doesn't want the divorce realises that the other person is serious. Don't trust that he will play fair, even if he's a decent person.

I think you’re flogging a dead horse lm afraid. It’s now over halfway through the year and nothing sounds like it’s changed since therapy at the start of the year. He sounds lazy, self involved and selfish. Loving the way you have to miss work (the job that pays most of the bills!), then he goes to his random labouring casual work and you care for a sick child. Plus he can magically find the time and focus for trips away with his friends. You really aren’t a priority

So what if he’s neurodiverse, he can’t just hang onto your coat tails forever. Both my husband and l are neurodiverse but l don’t organise him. I can organise myself quite well but don’t have the bandwidth for us both. Plus it’s not my job -he’s a grown up and the same applies to your husband

I'm sorry you are going through this. If you look at my thread from today, I'm also wondering if it's the end here. Different circumstances but I know how you feel in pit of tummy. I have no advice although he doesn't sound likes he's nasty. Hope it all works out whatever you decide x

You sound very resentful. I’ve noticed you’ve said a few times about how you are the one paying for things, “a trip paid for by me”, and “he doesn’t really have any money” - if these things were being said by a man about his wife who worked part time then he would be absolutely flamed. Is it not shared family money?

You also sound like you have certain expectations of what “showing someone they love you” looks like. You like people to plan and organise dates/time spent together etc. That doesn’t necessarily work for everyone. I have three young children and if my DH suggested that we organise childcare and go for a long walk together I would agree and I would enjoy it but equally I wouldn’t go out of my way to arrange such a “date” together. I’m tired and if we had a whole day just to ourselves I’d be happy to just stay at home with him and potter about and relax. I also wouldn’t be overly fussed about arranging a weekend away just the two of us - yes on paper it does sound nice but I’m happy doing stuff as a family instead and I’d miss the kids. Neither approach is wrong or right but it seems like it’s just not what he enjoys doing. It sounds like he does enjoy spending time with you but if he’s like me then he enjoys watching a film together as much as he enjoys going out to a nice restaurant. And actually by 8pm when I’ve been with the kids all day I can’t be arsed to go to a restaurant. If that’s really a dealbreaker for you then that’s ok. But it sounds like you’ve lost respect for him all round really so I’d separate.

I think it would be hard to be the main breadwinner and the default parent. Yes, it's family money but only if the part time worker is pulling their weight in other areas.

@probateproblems
I can understand your feelings. I think it will take you separating for him to get that big wake up call that you're serious about the future of your marriage.

I hear complaints like yours from women a fair amount in my line of work and sometimes, even when the man makes the changes, it's too late. Resentment had creot in.

I always remember a thread on here from a sinan who had had enough after 30 years of marriage. After renunciation her husband she was done, she said he made her more meals and cups of tea in one week, than he had in 30 years together.

It only made her more angry that he could do it, but he chose not to do it.

@Chaosx3x - I only mention the money because factually it is me that's paying for it. I don't mind that - I always knew I would be the breadwinner from day one. But when you're the breadwinner AND carry the mental load because of ingrained societal norms, then it's bloomin hard. I'm burnt out and on the verge of a breakdown. I just want a bit of love and attention from my husband. Is that too much to ask? And I don't want grand romantic gestures and posh restaurants. Neither of us are fussed about that... but I don't think it's unreasonable to want to spend time with my life partner away from the children. I'm a firm believer that we will be better parents and a stronger family if our relationship is nourished. We maybe watch an hour a week of television together and that's the sum total of our "quality time".... if you and your husband are happy with the time you spend together then that's great- but if he wasn't happy and wanted to spend more of his time with you because he loves you and enjoys your company... would you make the effort to plan something?

@Sockmate123 - I'm sorry you're having issues too. I'll go and take a look at your thread shortly.

@Scramabled - I'm very interested in how he's wired. I'm trying to make sense of why he's the way he is and am seeking to understand. I know he's not a bad person. He's not self involved, selfish and lazy as suggested by @TruthorDie and I do him a disservice if that's how I've portrayed him. I genuinely think that it's because he's wired in a different way. But if that wiring means that he can't make me happy then the kindest thing for both of us is to go our separate ways, otherwise I'll always be trying to force a round peg to fit in a square hole. If I wasn't interested in how he was wired, and seeking to understand WHY he struggles with executive function then I would've called time on it long ago. We are chalk and cheese in every respect- and it was that which made us SO good in the first place and why I cling on to the relationship- because when we do spend time together we compliment each other perfectly - we balance each other out. He is wild and carefree which I love, respect and even envy... whereas I'm driven and more organised- which he respects. It's that we've let our relationship be subsumed by the day to day mundanity of family life and I'm trying to get him to remember how good it is underneath all of that. But to do that we need to spend time together.

@SandyY2K - yes I can see what that would be frustrating for women- that their men can pull it out of the bag when they absolutely need to... but haven't bothered to do so before. If I knew for certain that he'd taken what I've said on board then all day long I'd give him a second (third, fourth, fifth in actuality) chance. It's just that we've been here before. I love him and care so deeply for him... but know I'm worth more than an hour a week of TV watching together. I'm worth walks in the countryside together holding hands, I'm worth having a picnic together on a sunny afternoon, I'm worth recreating our lovely first date together (which was as low key as you can get)... I'm not asking for much, I'm really not

That’s tough OP- I don’t think I could cope with that. The clutter, lack of drive etc it sounds like he’s a messy housemate and not a husband. Don’t get me wrong my husband has his moments- I think mine has ASD (as does he) and he does the clutter thing , drives me mental ( so I understand where you’re coming from). But we spend quality time together have fun etc. So I don’t think you’re being unreasonable at all. It’s just a shame
isn’t it, you’ve done everything right going to counselling. Maybe time to call it a day but it’s sad 😔

She’s probably resentful as he’s not holding up his end of the deal. He’s acting like he’s the main earner (leaving the mental load to her, expecting her to not go into work to care for sick children etc) but he isn’t. My husband and l’s set up is we do 50/50 with work and childcare. So he’d be annoyed if l wasn’t doing 50/50 round the house and pulling my weight by earning money. As l would l if he did the same to me

You sound like you're asking for permission to leave him OP. You don't need permission from Mumsnet. Go with what you think is right. (But don't forget to get legal advice first!)

@thinkfast - thank you for this. I can see that it does look like I'm asking permission. I don't trust my own judgment and I need to talk and process what's a massive deal. Ending a marriage is huge and it's something I need to think so carefully about. It's not what I want. I know that. The thought makes me sick to my stomach because when all's said and done, I do love him. For all his faults, I know he loves me too. Maybe I just need to do the organising and suck it up. Maybe I can cope with that if he at least shows willingness and enthusiasm.

I meant before that I think your mind is made up. Which is fine. You've felt neglected. But I'd really pay attention to the fact that you're wired a different way as you may need to do more bending than you think if your kids are wired in a similar way to him. I didn't mean to suggest you don't love him. Just that you already sound like you know you're done.

It's hard, he sounds like good man.

But I don't think you love or respect him anymore, you sound like you have stacked resentment and checked out. You do also sound utterly burnt out as well.

Can you take time for yourself away? Away from work away from him to just reflect? Book yourself the weekend away you'd like.

This is what I do as I have a very similar husband, he doesn't arrange anything and it's killed our marriage so I go away with my DS, with friends etc and he misses out, I simply don't invite him or arrange anything now and haven't for 5 + years.

He gets slightly baffled that I just get on with my trips and time, but I gave up trying to change him so decided to please myself and treat myself how I'd like him to treat me.

It's tough with little ones, but he does sound like he's doing exactly what was agreed, kids, work etc.

I think couples therapy can be really ineffective, I’ve had three goes at it over the years and a lot of one-to-one and group work as well, and I just think couples therapy can be shite. much more like mediation, massively unscientific and totally based on the therapists views and biases,, but it’s not really doing the deeper work of helping the two individuals in the room make the changes they need to make. You can’t form the same sort of safe relationship with a couples therapist, there is the tension of wondering whose side they will be on and they tend to be a lot more vocally judgemental, the work is just completely different and I think it often fails.

Perhaps something is blocking him from being assertive/organised/decisive. it could be a combination of things- being tired, poor executive functioning, having a different way of expressing his love, maybe a bit of resentment and possibly a load of anxiety which he is not very much in touch with, about getting it wrong and not pleasing you. Is that possible?

There’s a block. There is a huge amount you can learn about demand avoidance, it’s really interesting how people get stuck being unable to do things even when they want to do them, and at the root of it is anxiety and there’s really particular ways you can unblock this dynamic, but the more you push the worse it gets. It does sound a tiny bit like that.

If I was you I’d be doing a lot of learning about neurodiversity, if that’s something that’s going on with the kids youll probably have to do it anyway and you might find it sheds light on your situation. And perhaps some good quality one to one therapy to unpick what’s going on., for both of you?

The other thing is, have you considered Neurodiversity for yourself? I think it’s very common to get couples where there’s Neurodiversity on both sides, as like attracts like, the stress levels around clutter sounds very familiar to me, my some just been diagnosed asc and will probably also be diagnosed adhd this week. He’s 15, suddenly I’m looking at all of my relationship issues through a completely new lens, things are falling into place, and if I’d known before it would’ve been very helpful.

Effectively you have 3 children and are feeling burnt out.
Something has to give. If it's hour health then the whole family is screwed as you pay for and organise everything.
You need to mind your health carefully.
It sounds like your marriage is over.
You are not his priority but he foes like the status quo of being married.
You need to seek legal advice carefully because if he is deemed primary carer, you are screwed.
So look into things thoroughly before you take action.
Hopefully divorce can be amicable and you will co parent well.
He may well still care for you but he has little interest in spending time with you.
It shouldn't be this difficult.
You deserve more.
Time to be brave, but get good advice first.