Heated disagreement about gender affirmation

[NeatBiscuit]

My partner and I got into a heated disagreement tonight about gender affirmation for children. She supports it but I do not support the surgery part in children. I don't mind someone pretending to be the opposite gender but I can't get behind bottom surgery in children.

My concerns with bottom surgery in children are as follows:

a) children and doctors can be wrong
b) the decision is irreversible
c) there could be complications from surgery
d) not knowing the long term effects of hormones and puberty blockers

I'm not an expert on the topic but I do feel my concerns are valid.

My partner is admittedly more knowledgeable on the subject than me. Her father is trans gender. She is also involved in the LGBTQ community. However, whenever we try to talk about the subject, she gets emotional, accuses me of listening to far right political commentators, and storms out of the room. We can't have a calm, civil discussion about the topic without her getting emotional.

We don't have children but we have been talking about it. My question is should such a disagreement be a deal breaker for a relationship? It bothers me that she won't acknowledge my concerns on a topic that is already very controversial to begin with.

My question is should such a disagreement be a deal breaker for a relationship?

Well if you're planning on having children then I'd be extremely cautious of having them with someone who supported gender affirming surgery unwaveringly and refused to listen to concerns or acknowledge that they are in fact actual real and valid concerns.

It would be a dealbreaker for me and I’d be off. My views are that children or anyone under the age of 18 should not be given surgery or hormones for this. If they want it as an adult they can pay for it themselves. People need therapy not cutting bits off because they aren’t happy.

Your concerns are legitimate. It cannot be correct to perform such serious surgery on children.

Your partner can’t be calm about this because they are struggling with cognitive dissonance.

They know that we should not do this to children but are so far down the line of accepting some very unscientific views on gender identity, that it’s hard to pull back and admit it.

The ideology is a little like a religion. The religious know that logical holes can be picked in their belief system and that their reasoning is often circular. So they just don’t want to listen to anyone who tries to point this out or who won’t just believe the same thing. They have invested in it, overcome the logical barriers and bought in.

My advice is that you agree to not discuss it again if that’s something you can live with. Would your partner be open to reading the Cass Review? Or do they dismiss that also?

I think it would be a deal breaker for me because it shows a lack of understanding of the issues here, and puts the feelings and beliefs of adults above the wellbeing of children.

I hope you work it out.

It would absolutely be a deal breaker for me and I would not have children with someone prepared to support surgical mutilation of their own child. Because that is what we are talking about here.

Red flag for me and I'd end the relationship.

I can't fathom the mindset of people who think experimenting with healthy children's bodies is acceptable.

Dont and will never agree. That's a decision for an adult to make. I mean just because a child wants to be a train driver are you going to buy them a train instantly and a course to learn to drive it?? Or they want to be a fireman are you going to lead them to a fire and let them do it ?

You might also want to consider the aspect of "not talking about it".

It's a common tactic when you have batshit ideas. Flounce off and tell people they are mean rather than have an adult conversation that you know you can't justify.

Your partner is also not necessarily more informed re: having a trans parent. Just more indoctrinated in a cult.

Her dad by definition didn’t take medicine pre puberty- does she realise she wouldn’t exist if he had been sterilised or had his penis cut off young?

I didn't think it involved surgery on the bottom? Every day's a school day. Might be interesting to ask her DF's opinion, how he felt about things when younger.
It's more emotive for your DP as its personal, however, for your average family, the chances are slim so maybe not a dealbreaker and could run the gauntlet on your difference of opinion.
If there's a genetic connection, the risks of it occuring might be slightly higher in your case. Perhaps better to stop going over it, you already know your opinions are juxtaposed, so what's the point of further discussion, even a calm one?

It’s all about compromise and when you ask questions, you’re partner accuses you of right wing bias… Be careful

Knowing someone who is trans and being ‘part of the lbgt community’ doesn’t mean you automatically know far more about this issue.

Honestly, it would be a deal breaker for me. I couldn’t have kids with someone that thought it was ok to mutilate and child and/or give child hormones that damage them based on the child having a feeling.

It’s child abuse to me. So no, I wouldnt risk having a child with someone like that.

Would be a dealbreaker for me. You will never convince me, it's biological fact and that's the end of it.

Disagreement about how children with gender issues should be treated is important and shouldn't be ignored but honestly does she actually support under 18s getting genital surgery? You know that doesn't happen in most parts of the world? I mean if you're going to argue about it you should be arguing about the right thing?! Under 18s can be prescribed medication but they don't get surgery.

whenever we try to talk about the subject, she gets emotional, accuses me of listening to far right political commentators, and storms out of the room. We can't have a calm, civil discussion about the topic without her getting emotional

This would be a deal breaker for me. Absolutely not.

Apart from anything else, it sounds like your partner can’t have disagreements, and behaves appallingly when you do hold a different perspective.

I wouldn’t have children with someone who thinks that it’s acceptable collateral to remove parts of their body if they don’t match their ‘feelings’.

Your partner’s father sounds like he’s followed the pattern of a typical middle aged autogynaephile and, rather than examine what his paraphilia has done to his family and relationships, this heterosexual woman has thrown herself into LGBTQIA+ activism - with particular emphasis on the T.

Affirming children in their belief that they were ‘born in the wrong body’ is not a neutral act, according to the Cass report. Dosing children with wrong sex hormones and cutting off or inverting healthy body parts is child abuse.

You may think your partner is knowledgeable about this, but the motivations for middle aged men to transition are very different from that of teenage girls.

I would think incredibly carefully about having a child with someone so heavily invested in the cult (and yes, it is a cult) of gender identity ideology.

‘Bottom surgery’ is a hideous and misleading phrase. What you mean is castration. If your girlfriends father had been castrated as a child she wouldn’t be here. It must be tough having a dad who insists he is a woman though, so she may be repressing lots of difficult feelings and cognitive dissonance. Hence the flouncing and anger. Still a deal breaker though.

I think you should ask her if she has read the Cass review.

And no I couldn't be with someone who thought it was ok, I certainly would be happy with having an AGP for a FIL

I dated a man once who had a transgender daughter. They were early teens when they came out. Both parents were completely onboard her taking oestrogen as early as she could, laser hair removal, lip fillers. She, the kid, now over 18, is asking both parents to fork up nearly 30k to help her get all the other surgeries done!!!

I do remember him saying that he didn't have a choice because he feared she would end her life it was that big of a deal for her to live as a girl. So he was onboard, the mum didn't seem bothered at all from the get go and so both encouraged it.

Very complicated. But- I will say, that the trans teen has a reductive view of what a woman is as all I see is v short skirts, excessive fake tan, body piercings, lip filler, Botox, hopping from one boy to the next so it's all a bit caricature like. Because funny how the first surgery she wants to get done is a boob job- not remove the adams apple for example which will 'give her away' in 30 seconds.
Very superficial understanding of what it means to BE a woman, not LOOK like a woman.

She had a troubled past- the father had a v troubled past so she was responding to generational trauma. Why not go to therapy I don't know.

It is a deal-breaker for me. It shows me that they have lack of critical thinking.

Why can't we just stop gendering activities???

Say you have a baby boy who grows up and wants to grow his hair long or wear a dress or become a nail technician and have sex with men- he should be able to do all this without having to change his bits!

The issue is society labelling things as women things and man things. But biology cannot lie. If I was a transgender woman, and I assaulted someone, or worse- the police would find male DNA and send a search team for a man in his 30's- how would I ever get caught if I am living and presenting myself as a woman?

Apart from the gender issue itself why would you want to be with someone who acts like that when you disagree with each other.

This is also very important https://x.com/ourdutygrp/status/1800497255499350029?s=46&t=2rRFOIbLE0AM9N5y98zmkw

Anyone advocating for the transition of children doesn't have children's best interests at heart.
Your partner is not more knowledgable about it because her dad wears dresses. She's seriously uneducated about it if rather than discussing it with you she is having a tantrum and calling you right wing. She needs to read the Cass Review and have a serious think about her "religion"

I'm sorry OP, but I wouldn't have children with this person.

Yes 100% red flag. I wouldn't be able to continue the relationship. They would be happy to mutilate your own child, based on a toxic mix of stereotypes and mental health issues.

This.

Top surgery - girls cutting off healthy breasts - these girls are often autistic. There is a massive community of young women cheering each other on to do this and celebrating their scars and feeling thrilled they can take their tops off in public. I work with a young person who desperately wants this so she can "be like the boys"

Bottom surgery - castration for males.

Or for females - a piece of skin removed from elsewhere on the body and rolled into a flesh tube and attached. This piece of reanimated skin will never perform like an actual penis.

Best to keep calling it all what it is. Language being infantilised and obscured is what has gotten us into this mess to begin with.

Does your partner deny that puberty blocking drugs, hormone treatment and surgery are disastrous to health?

If so, why? Nobody can be that stupid, so she must be dishonest.