How to deal with toxic BIL and wife?

[Mavan1984]

Hi everyone, sorry it's a long one.

BIL (DH brother) got married about 7 years ago. Within the first few months of their marriage his wife fell out with 2 of my SILs (DH sisters) and cut all contact with them.

Me and DH have always remained neutral, there were faults on both sides when contact was cut and we didn't want to get involved. Me and DH are both quite laid back and we wanted to maintain a relationship with BIL, his wife and SILs.

Before BIL got married, he was very laid back, quiet and was very much always close to his siblings. Ive got to know his wife and she is quite dominating and controlling and I've noticed she tells him what to do, who to see/not see and he listens to everything she says. She has also filled his head with a lot of toxicity about SILs and he has become very bitter. They spend a lot of time with her family and on BILs side it was just us they kept contact with.

Elderly MIL is currently ill and requires a lot of care. All the siblings set up a WhatsApp group to try and coordinate MILs care. This has led to many disagreements between BIL and SILs and BIL has been very rude to them on the group - some of the language he uses I can tell has been dictated to him by his wife. SILs have been quite cordial and even when they have disagreed with something they have responded to BIL in a nice way.

A few weeks ago BIL and wife came to see me and DH regarding MILs care and all they did was slag SILs off. SILs in my opinion have been trying very hard to do whatever they can for MIL but BIL and wife keep picking holes in everything they do. My DH said this to BIL and wife but they just didn't want to hear it, were rude to DH and then stormed out the house - simply because he didnt agree with everything they were saying. Later that day BIL posted a very rude message on the group directed at SILs which upset them a lot (and rightly so).

A few days ago I sent a private message to BIL wife regarding an aspect of MILs care and she sent me back a very rude reply - along the lines of how my DH always makes excuses for SILs, he never backs BIL on the group and that only they have MILs welfare at heart. I was very taken aback and hurt by the messages because I've always tried to maintain a relationship with her and I've supported her in the beginning when my SILs have been unfair to her. I've not responded because I just didn't know what to say.

I showed the messages to DH and he is very hurt, especially as we have always been the ones in the middle trying to keep the peace with everyone. Me and DH also discussed how much BIL has changed and how he harbours so much hate in his heart for his family. I feel like BIL and wife will no longer want to keep contact with us because DH hasn't sided with them and now BIL will lose contact with the last member of his family. I also feel sorry for my DCs as they are fond of BIL.

I've not responded to the messages but DH is saying he will speak to BIL one-to-one when wife sn't there and try to talk some sense into him. SILs and BIL fell out when he first got married but recently SILs have been trying to make an effort with him but he has just become so negative and doesn't want to move past that.

Will DH talking to BIL make a difference? Is it even a good idea? I know he tells her everything so she could misinterpret my DHs intentions.
If contact is cut, how will I explain this to my DCs (15, 12 and 7)?
What can we actually do to make BIL realise that his wife is alienating him from his family? (He has also cut off some of his childhood friends as wife hasn't taken a liking to them).
Should I respond to her messages or just leave it? At this point I don't think I want any kind of relationship with her tbh.

What a sad situation.

I wouldn't reply to SIL's message, unless along the lines of "Duly noted". You don't want to inflame the situation further

I wouldn't stop my DP from contacting his sibling in similar circumstances - it's his relationship and is up to him to navigate. I don't think talking to BIL will change how he is behaving however at least your DH will feel he does done everything he can to salvage the situation.

Regarding your kids - well all you can say is that the brothers (ie their Dad and uncle) have had a disagreement and have stopped talking to each other for now. That it is sad, but these things happen in families. Try not to make a big thing of it for them.

Will the BIL & SIL drop out of the caring rota ? Might be tricky for them to continue?

Thanks for your reply.

I think BIL and wife will continue with the caring rota - partly because they think they are the only ones that care about her and they want to win points over SILs.

The rotas been set up in such a way that none of the siblings are actually at MILs at the same time. They all go alone in their own time which perfectly suits BIL.

I feel so disappointed that BIL has gone from being such a lovely person to becoming so negative and bitter.

I would just keep my beak out and assume you are on the shit list. Don't include them or rely on them, BIL sounds like a spineless drip.

It sounds as if the brother and his wife are very difficult and you and your DH are acting as enablers (flying monkeys) by framing yourselves as peace brokers.

Some people can't be reasoned with.

You and your DH need to decide what your position is and stick to it regardless of what others think. What is best for MIL's care?

Focus solely on that question and nothing else.

Be mindful that sitting on the fence in such situations rarely brings you kudos. Rather both "sides" despise you equally whilst you sit with splinters in your arse.

Should your DH speak to his brother and tell him that he and his wife are a bloody nightmare, yes. There is nothing to lose at this point from what you have posted. DH should say his door is always open to his brother but that he won't tolerate xyz behaviours - and mean it.

As to what to tell your children, well the truth that you have had a disagreement and everyone needs some cooling off time. You are not sure how long that will be.

Spineless drip sound like a perfect term for BIL. These are some things he has recently done which have really baffled me.

1. SIL was on rota for cleaning, BIL went straight after, took photos and sent to wife to show her that SIL hadn't cleaned properly.
2. SIL had taken food for MIL for lunch. BIL went same day, took pics of food and sent to wife to show her that SILs food wasn't up to a high standard.

It's almost like he has to tell her every little thing.

I’ve really no advice, except to say I’m sorry.
Anything your DH says will surely be misinterpreted or twisted into a slight against them. Sometimes you can’t win for losing.

Driving down the middle of the road is the most dangerous place to drive — you get hit from both sides.

I just read your latest update - sounds like they’re the king & queen of pettyland.

Does he have a point? Was the house not clean? Was the food poor? Or are they just being petty? Do they live up to the standards they expect of everyone else?

Tbh you are also falling into the trap of assuming his wife is fully responsible for these issues.

But he seems to be fully on board with this. Maybe it's not "her". It's just that she's backing up what he thinks anyway.

Maybe he was laid back before they met but that was only because he didn't have the gumption to state what he thought. Consider that what you are seeing is the real him, but he was just too much of a coward to be an arsehole publicly without a wingwoman.

In my eyes the house was clean and the food was fine. They are both extremely petty and will find faults in anything SILs do.

I'm feeling so devastated for my DH. Even when wife was being rude to DH, BIL just sat there and watched.

You could lose a relationship with your SILs if you keep being so 'neutral'. Stop expecting your Bil to be kind and defending him and his wife. It's time to pick a side, as sitting on the fence when someone is clearly behaving badly wins you no favours, only resentment and enemies.

I'd be cutting both of them off.

Why are you trying to salvage anything with these revolting people? Leave them to their bitter misery.

Those are loathsome things to do. Even if you feel he is completely under his DWs thumb, he had the choice of sending those photos or messages or not. I wouldn't be keen to forgive someone who did something so underhand, nor would I maintain the narrative that BIL is a blameless patsy.

On another note, depending on how long MILs illness is expected to last, perhaps it's time to think about cleaners and carers. The current arrangement sounds too fragile and demanding for everyone.

I don’t think I’d care if I ever saw or spoke to either of them again, bil has made his spiteful bed, let him lie in it.
And if I were the sil who’s care he had criticised there would absolute HELL to pay, I’d eat him alive.

Honestly don’t know why he didn’t tell her to go fuck herself.

Does sound like he has a controlling abusive wife who has successfully isolated him from his family rather than spineless drip my money is on if he stands up to her or go against her she’d make his life a misery

this is a battle you will not win don’t engage just focus on MIL
confrontation fuels situations like this

ultimately From everything you said it screams SIL is abusive and controlling thats from what bit you know so it will be 10 times worse behind closed doors

would you call a woman being abused a spineless drip

deep breaths and rises above it but keep contact

Agree, pick a side. My parents have treated me disgracefully. My brother says he's neutral so he never challenges them. He's angry with me that I won't just buckle under and accept the regime. It makes me think less of him. He should say "I choose homeostasis"

Set up a new group without BIL and wife. Don't close the previous one but don't post any messages on it either.

You says there's faults on both sides and the sisters were unfair what exactly did they do or say? There's clearly alot more to this story. Context is key here Also is it really possible having a rota would it not be beneficial for mil to go into a care home especially as the family is so fractured and people become resentful over time when it involves care.

MiL has had a major operation and will take at least 3 months to make a full recovery. All the siblings agreed that they want to care for her but this will be reviewed after 3 months, after which they will put some outside help in place, if needed.

Wife and SILs fell out because MIL and wife had an argument over something petty and wife felt that SIL had sided with their MIL. At the time wife and SILs said some equally nasty things to each other but after contact was cut this all stopped.

We did not take sides because wife was always nice with us and we maintained a cordial relationship. We also have a good relationship with SILs. As I said earlier, at the time both parties were being petty and we didn't want to pick a side. I now feel that we have been stabbed in the back.

I have often wondered whether BIL is in an abusive relationship but as mentioned above there are certain things that he has done - like the photos, which he didn't have to relay back to his wife, but he did.

Yes, I’m always wary of blaming the person they married because it’s easier than blaming the family member/blood relative for their own decisions and behaviour. Adults are responsible for their own shit.

It’s probably time to say something along the lines of ‘looks ok to me, unless anyone wants to take on sole responsibility let’s not criticise other’s efforts and all pull together to help mil’ then leave it. Sitting on the fence is fine for the earlier petty squabbles but this was just rude and uncalled for.

I have a SIL like this. She's a right cunt and my BIL has no balls.

She's managed to alienate 2 out of 3 of the other brothers and now her focus has shifted to us.

My husband is so disappointed in his brother. My husband is Maori. Family is paramount, it's crazy to me how close they a can be at times.

I have always supported his relationship with his entire family, but this bitch is diabolical.

It'll never change. She's come for you guys now. Uphold your relationship with your other SIL and maintain the best interests of your MIL, it's all you can do.

Just stay out of it, OP. Let the siblings sort out the care rota (or not). There is no reason for you to contact any of them.
And there is no reason to say anything to your children - they're kids, they probably won't care, or even notice, that they are seeing less of their uncle.
Your BIL can make his own choices, good or bad - it is nobody's job to persuade him otherwise.

Op sorry you're upset and it does sound stressful but can I ask why do blame your bils wife for the things your bil says? Your hubby plans on talking to his brother when the wife isn't there so he can 'talk sense' to him. Aren't you essential doing what you claim the wife is doing? I only ask as my husbands family do similar things every time he speaks, they say I'm the one telling him what to say (not on matters like you've mentioned more to do with how they treat me ) and would always make plans to catch my hubby alone to 'talk sense' to him. It would be interesting if your bils wife told her version of the story I'm sure she'd have plenty to say and where as you sing your praises about being fair to them it's likely your direct message to your bils wife had offended her in some way because from your post you are already annoyed with her and viewing her in a negative way. maybe stop trying to influence what they say and do and let them make their own choices. If your bil is saying stuff you all don't like maybe you need tonconsider it's how he actually feels.