Do “narcissistic” type abusers set out to “abuse” and “destroy” or is this just the by product?

[Rainbow03]

When I’ve read in the past about this kind of abuse It often reads that they are monsters seeking out someone to destroy.

In my own experience he seemed clueless to what he was doing. I didn’t feel like he woke up thinking he’d throw something today.

Do they just genuinely believe that their partner is there for their own benefit and have no thoughts or feelings of their own and their purpose is to make them feel good?

Surely the definition of a narcissist is that they are so self-obsessed that they simply don't recognise the needs of others. It doesn't occur to them to consider the needs or feelings of others.

I don't think they set out to abuse anyone, although I'm sure it feels like that.

I think there's different types of narcissists. The type who are sociopaths or psychopaths will actively go out to destroy.

Other Narcs they lack empathy so simply don't consider your feelings in their actions. All they see is you as an additive to their existence, they don't consider you to have your own hopes/dreams/wants/needs. The narcissist I was involved in was obsessed with me when I made him happy. As soon as I put myself first, the treatment of me shifted to him being so uncaring, it was like a different person and very difficult to come to terms with. But from his point of view, I was in the wrong as I was no longer making him happy.

He then did get nasty when I ended things as I hurt his ego- narcissistic collapse. This is when they can get very dangerous indeed and can set out to destroy you. In their mind this is all justified because how dare you cause them hurt/pain (with no analysis of why). Time to block and run.

Dr Ramani on YouTube is just brilliant. There are plenty of informative, helpful videos that I think you'd benefit from watching. Obviously clear your watch and search history! First piece of advice is to never call a narcissist what they are.

What matters is if they are displaying the characteristics consistently then you are not safe in that relationship. I wonder if it's intentional but then think, it doesn't really matter as it is pure evil from my experience. Some people do immature things and have issues controlling their emotions without necessarily being a narcissist. That's why I think you'd like the Dr Ramani videos.

@Meadowfinch that’s kind of how I feel about things. He certainly agrees he didn’t set out to do it (or agree he did it, but that’s obvious lol)

@Pantaloons99 I left a while ago lol. I’ve seen a few of her videos. I just feel I read a lot about how evil they are and how they seek to destroy. I felt that through the freedom program also but don’t think it’s helpful to think like that.

I think it's important for anyone who has been sucked into the close orbit of a narcissist to learn about the dynamic so that they can (a) understand what has happened to them (b) recognise the signs and (c) learn how to avoid them at all costs.

People with NPD, including those who are outright sociopaths, destroy lives.

They are often highly-skilled at manipulation and very charming on the surface. They are also dangerous because they will lie, cheat and hurt others to get want they want.

It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. It will always come at great personal cost to you, whether you realise it or not.

I kind of agree with you. When I think about a close family member, I feel extremely anxious thinking about them as evil. But I really do now see them as pure evil as they are the opposite to everything I stand for and feel. I think once you have complete distance and detachment and nothing to offer then they'll move to another target. At that point I imagine I personally would not really think much on it.

The biggest narcissist I know always smirks when they are causing chaos and destruction to their latest target. I think if they could get the popcorn out as they watch, they would. I think they do set out to abuse and destroy their targets, and they often succeed. I think if it wasn’t a conscious choice they would be like it with everybody, but IME they are not, they choose their targets carefully.

I don’t think my ex wanted to destroy me but it was the outcome none the less. I suppose there are different kinds and some more disturbed than others.

^^ your post here sums it up.

It doesn't even matter whether they mean to do what they do, the result is the same. Chaos and destruction.

Once you have identified a toxic person, stay well away and preserve your own self at all costs.

@Sicario they need to come with a warning sign! If only!

I think covert narcissists in particular are not aware that they're doing it. Grandiose narcissists are perhaps a bit more purposeful about it.

Ultimately though, a narcissist's defining characteristic is an inability to view the world through any lens but their own, and they are categorically unable to take responsibility or accountability for any of their actions and/or they truly believe that everyone around them should behave as they want. It is a type of disordered thinking in which what they are doing makes complete sense to them.

Many narcissists (especially covert ones - the ones who are consistently convinced they are the victim) land up alone and unhappy as they get older because over time, this disordered thinking goes into every aspect of their lives. I do actually feel sorry for them because they genuinely do not understand how they have got to this place.

The narcissist in our extended family is currently very sad and upset because so many of his ex's extended family and friends will have nothing to do with him. I believe he feels that this is because he has had a really difficult time and people were not willing to stand by him. IN fact, it's because his behaviour has consistently been awful and when he was in his narcissistic collapse phase, it all escalated to extreme levels. He has never acknowledge or apologised or made any effort to correct any of this and yet is still upset that people are not willing to spend time with him.

I suppose it looks intentional to a normal brain but may not be coming from intent. I think the thing I can’t quite see as unintentional is when you don’t agree and they then intentionally seem to try and gaslight you into not having that opinion or make you feel bad for making them feel bad, that seems to have intent?

@Rainbow03 I think it's really important to understand the level of disordered thinking.

Let me give you a real world example. exBIL is still very angry and very upset with me (and, to a lesser extent, DH) because of what he perceives as our unwillingness to help. He claims that he asked for help and we did not give it. He is very bitter and very resentful about this. It's not 100% clear what is that he expected from this help that he supposedly asked for, but I think it's safe to say that he feels if we had helped, perhaps they would have stayed together. He is not making this up. He is not intentionally lying when he complains to me, to dh, to SIL, to PIL and, probably, to everyone else, that SIL's family, me especially, were unhelpful (also toxic and abusive). He 100% truly believes this.

However, here are the facts:

1 he didn't ever ask for help as you and I would see help. There were a few occasions - two in particular I can think of - where he contacted me and DH and "asked" for something. However, in both cases, the help he was asking for basically came in the form of a long stream of accusations about SIL and how toxic/abusive/crazy/manipulative she was. One one occasion, after all of this and lots of comments like, "she does my head in", he asked me to ask DH to take her out for the evening so that he "could get a break." This was particularly ironic as at that point in the relationship, SIL was barely leaving the house as he made such a fuss. Her and DH had been to an event together a few weeks before and he'd sulked for 3 days.

2 At no point in any of these streams of consciousness, did he ever acknowledge that he might not be 100% perfect. They were all about her. He didn't even make the sort of semi-acknowledgement like, "I know I'm not perfect but...."

3 The accusations he made about her were either blatantly untrue or were completely unfair and were based on his own perceptions. for example, when they had a newborn, he constantly complained to DH that she didn't make enough time for HIM and that she was unreasonable for wanting him to do more around the house because he was also a new parent and needed more support from her. DH pointed out that with a newborn no one is getting much sleep, everyone is struggling and that as she was BF, it was his job to make the effort.

They 100% set out to abuse and destroy. They know exactly what they're doing. They're evil to their core.

@Shmitz that kind of assumes they have self awareness and not sure they do. It seems to be the general outcome though as they don’t think like most people. @GingerIsBest yeah I think I am starting to see this now. I spent a long time analysing myself and my actions and why I put up with it for so long. None of it really makes much sense in their behaviour.

I think the hardest part about dealing with these personalities is that it IS so irrational. I follow a few people who talk about narcissists on tiktok and the one thing that comes up time and time again is that there is no point trying to reason with them or defend yourself when they accuse you of things. They literally cannot hear you and will just use it as another opportunity to turn it on you.

As for why you put up with it for so long? Most likely because you are an empathetic and giving person. Narcissistic personalities actively seek out such people and if you look back on the relatively early days of your relationship you will most likely start to recognise many "red flags" that at the time, you just didn't notice. Those red flag behaviours are how the narcissist sucks you in - if you accept these you are the type that can be manipulated by them. this does not make the abuse your fault. It's just a helpful way to understand that your positive qualities of kindness and empathy and being able to take responsibility and accountability were used against you.

A few classic red flag behaviours early in the relationship that come up a lot:

Oversharing about his childhood and/or relationship trauma. So you felt sorry for him. You wanted to prove to him that not everyone is untrustworthy.

Disappearing for hours/days when upset and, on return, giving you a sob story about he he couldn't cope with the emotions and/or he was so invested in this relationship he was terrified you'd break up with him and/or some other BS excuse.

A crazy ex. Often also a cheating crazy ex.

Puppy dog sad eyes because you wanted to go to meet a girlfriend for dinner because he just loves spending time with you and would miss you so much. Extra red flag if he turns this into him being a victim ie "but I know, I'm not as interesting as your friends so of course you need to spend time with them."

Offering to collect you from work/social activities/train station and even when you say it's not necessary because you don't know exactly what time will say something like, "oh, it's fine, I'll just wait up for you" or, worse, "wow, I was just trying to do a nice thing but I guess nice guys like me don't really get appreciated."

Do you recognise any of this from the early days?

I think they know they're different to normal people. They must know they don't feel empathy? I never saw the narc cry and when I cried they'd look at me with disgust and confusion as if being upset was an alien concept to them and a personal attack.

I've met two of these people, one a relationship and one disguised as a friend. One was violent and overt, the other covert. The overt could never be seen as weak, the overt was a perpetual victim of everything and nothing but weak (on the outside) The overt didn't spend time being calculating, tended to spend time showing off and hiding his painful insecurity. The covert spent a lot of time sowing seeds in mutual friends ears, projecting everything she did to me onto me, she lied, she stole from me, pleaded poverty constantly. The overt was a fitness fanatic, the covert a drug user. Both were destructive with my possessions, the overt smashing things up in front of me and the covert in a sly, secretive 'accidental' way.

The overt didn't mirror me but the covert did. I've since noticed she stole little bits of everyone's personality, style and even phrases they used to pass off as her own. Neither seemed to have a personality under the facade of either big strong successful man or eternal victim who had such a terrible life, never had any money, everyone was so horrible to them blah blah blah.

So both different but the end game the same, break down the empathetic fool you've targeted to milk for everything she's got, completely isolate her then tell everyone she's the narcissist.

I honestly think their ultimate goal is the victims suicide so they can turn around and say "told you, psycho"

My DHs ex keeps making malicious phone calls about us and has tried to get my DH into trouble or even sacked at work. I've had multiple visits from the planning department and environmental health due to false allegations. She definitely knows what she is doing. She also taunted her boyfriends wife and told her to kill herself even after he'd left his wife and moved in. She even sent photos of them having sex to his wife and family.

There's different types of narcissists and they all behave differently. Maybe some are just so self absorbed they forget other people exist but there are definitely some who deliberately set out to destroy people.

Gosh, some of these posts have hit hard.

I think perhaps some are much more malicious and do get joy out of it. Mine is way too worried about what others think to be doing overtly awful stuff, he perhaps has more control. There must be a scale of delusion.

Wow @GingerIsBest you've articulated this so well, thank you. I also struggle with the language around much of it sounding so much more conscious than it is in my relationship (trying to exit, but the victim mode is set on high so it's tricky), and I've totally got sucked into the childhood trauma narrative. The first red flag I saw and am so cross that I ignored was how he speaks to waiting staff, hotel receptionists etc. I put a lot of that down to poor upbringing, but I wish I'd realised and thought about why it's so often cited as an important thing to see how people treat people they don't 'have' to be polite to.

I think they have very little self awareness so they don't set out to dominate, belittle, abuse but that's what ends up happening. Mostly due to their fragile ego.

To be honest I think that very few people actually "set out" to abuse and destroy. These are people who would have enjoyed seeing suffering in other living creatures from a young age age, and fortunately I don't think there are many.

I do think that many people end up abusing because they are egotistical and when they don't get their or own way they lash out and can use various tactics to attempt to manipulate the situation to their best interests.
Once crossed, and in a situation they dislike, then they might not see anything wrong in "getting their own back" and deliberately hurting other people, revenge you could say, but I don't think it was the intention from the beginning for most people.

It doesn't make a difference to the victim, but it's one of the reasons why one sibling can feel that a parent is abusive, and another sibling can disagree, because it's not that the parent set out to abuse the child, but that they ended up doing so down to multiple factors in their relationship, which didn't come together with other sibling, for instance.

This is absolutely how I think my narcissistic ex operates. He is very invested in the idea that he's a great person and loving dad. He also seems to truly believe that everyone else in the world is an instrument at his disposal.

If others play along, then he can be quite charming (though he won't ever put himself out for anyone else). But if you cross him by not behaving as he would like, he will take pleasure in devising sneaky and sometimes subtle ways of catching you out or undermining you.

He is constantly trying to punish me for daring to leave him. It's really gross.